A&P Training?

Fiasco · January 10, 2008

Lots of info on pilot training in this forum.

Anyone have insight into A&P training? How long does it take to become an A&P and what kind of schooling costs are associatted with it?

Any schools in the Midwest (St. Louis) that offer A&P training and what is the market like for A&P mechanics?

67november · January 10, 2008

Hey Fiasco, I did my A&P schooling in Cheyenne WY in the Mid 80's at the time it was the best course/time frame for the money Cheyenne Aero Tech is the name, search it or call the Cheyenne chamber of commerse for their phone number

Edited January 10, 2008 by 67november

67november · January 10, 2008

I found it read thru this tread.

http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/helicopterfor...&hl=logging

apiaguy · January 10, 2008

Glad to see someone interested in maintenance.

my background.... did flight training (heli) had old timer instructor tell me if I wanted to be heli pilot I should get A&P..... I said OK, I like to work on things.... did 2 year A&P school (only way to go in my opinion)....Graduated first in my class... won national competition in aircraft maintenance... bought helicopter restoration project.. restored helicopter... fly, fly, fly....

Now my 2 cents.... If you want to FLY.. just do the flying (go to flight school)

If you spend time getting your A&P and you get a degree and then try and get your ratings .... YES, you will be very knowledgeable and very experienced but those other things won't help you get a flying job... (yes, they are helpful, but flight hours get flying jobs... not knowledge of how to fix the helicopter)

Some flight operations/operators (Ag ops, remote field work) will love you with an A&P because they want you to fix it and fly it and if you REALLY just want to fly you will feel a little shafted doing everything and getting very little for it. (I forgot to mention that A&P's make diddly squat) This is actually what I love to do (field work where I fly and maintain the aircraft) but I am the owner so I get all the money too.....

The rest of the operators either want a mechanic or a pilot... duty time doesn't allow you the ability to fly all day and then work all night on the helicopter.... and then there is the I'm a pilot and we are above you mechanics' attitude....

A&P's are the most desired part of the helicopter world right now... the only problem is they don't make any money so nobody wants to go into it...... when I started in 1997 with my A&P I was offered $8.50 (in the shop) $10 (in the field) to start..... it's not that much better today.

January 10, 2008

I did my A&P schooling in Cheyenne WY in the Mid 80's at the time it was the best course/time frame for the money Cheyenne Aero Tech is the name,

You did 67?! That was one of my choices too, back in ohhh, i guess 1986 i visited the school. I decided to go to a similar school in Utica, NY. ( was cheeper & closer to home here in NJ) I remember walking thru the streets of Cheyenne tho, was a fairly B I G town & no one on the streets, either driving OR walking.

My background is also similar to apiaguy's got A&P, bought wrecked ship, rebuilt it, got pilots license in it, & just keep it & fly for fun.

Depends on experience level & what you know how to work on & your skills, as far as $$-wise. ( i agree tho, you will never get rich bending wrenches for someone else)

As far as my thinking? ----i couldn't imagine not having A&P and being a pilot, to me, they go hand in hand. Especially if you ever plan on owning your own ship !

delorean · January 10, 2008

You can do the A&P one of two ways......school or "on-the-job" training.

A part 147 school will require 2000 hrs of training experience. This works out to 1-yr of 8 hr days, 5 days a week.

The on-the-job route is 18 months for just the Airframe or Powerplant side of the A&P, then a minimum of 30 months for both the A&P. You're expected to be working at least 30-40 hrs a week on aircraft and you have to maintain a logbook of everything you do.

You will never get the pay, schedule, perks, or respect that a pilot does even though the job is harder work, bears the same liability, and the fact that you went through more training than an ATP pilot did.

A&P jobs are hard to get without factory specific training or work experience. Once you have an A&P, you still are only allowed to perform tasks that you have been under the direct supervision of another before. Once you perform that task, then you're good to go--however--on a big jet, there's a million different tasks. That's where factory school comes in. For something like a Canadair Challenger--$60,000 and about 3 months training minimum in Montreal.

More and more maintenance shops are becoming Certified Repair Stations. You employ "repairmen" who are given training to perform a single or just a few specific tasks to certain parts of an aircraft. One or a few A&Ps oversee their work and sign it off. These A&Ps have to have to be very well experienced. But after 2.5 yrs, those repairmen can go for the A&P testing provided they met all the experience requirements (i.e. a guy who spent 30 month doing nothing but overhauling magentos could not apply since he never touched an airframe or anything else on an engine.)

For A&P training plus the pilot ground school check out HeliSat in Moscow Mills off Hwy 61 (www.helisat.com). Southwestern IL College (used to be Belleville Area College) in Granite City or Belleville has A&P training. Linn State Tech College out near Jefferson City also does it.

67november · January 10, 2008

A part 147 school will require 2000 hrs of training experience. This works out to 1-yr of 8 hr days, 5 days a week.

yep, did that in Cheyenne 7AM to 4PM with a hour for lunch, max class size was 30 students, 12 classes going on at once in various stages of completion. it looks like they've stretched it out to a 2 year program now.

Edited January 10, 2008 by 67november

Autorotator · January 10, 2008

The rest of the operators either want a mechanic or a pilot... duty time doesn't allow you the ability to fly all day and then work all night on the helicopter.... and then there is the I'm a pilot and we are above you mechanics' attitude....

I can't speek for anybody other than myself but, I've never had the "I'm a pilot and we are above you mechanics' attitude". I have a ton of respect for A&P's. You are the guys are highly trained individuals responsible for maintaining aircraft the I fly. I have some friends that are A&P's and have heard all that it takes to become one. You guys are extremely knowlegable and every one I have ever met, have always been great guys, always willing to help.

apiaguy · January 10, 2008

I hear ya.... thanks for the respect.....

But in ALOT of companies there is always a pecking order and pilot is always above mechanic in everyone I've seen... that's not to say that the pilot has say over a mechanic... just more "prestige"

I guess alot of it comes from the military where the pilots are usually "educated" individuals (officers) and the mechanics are enlisted.

air_1 · January 11, 2008

But in ALOT of companies there is always a pecking order and pilot is always above mechanic in everyone I've seen... that's not to say that the pilot has say over a mechanic... just more "prestige"

Still like that in many places. In a couple state aviation departments that I know of, the chief mechanic is under the direction of the chief pilot, and the chief pilot is under some other head honcho.

jet trash · January 11, 2008

The on-the-job route is 18 months for just the Airframe or Powerplant side of the A&P, then a minimum of 30 months for both the A&P. You're expected to be working at least 30-40 hrs a week on aircraft and you have to maintain a logbook of everything you do.

A&P jobs are hard to get without factory specific training or work experience. Once you have an A&P, you still are only allowed to perform tasks that you have been under the direct supervision of another before.

I am a "OJT" trained A&P. On the first comment, you are not "required" to keep a logbook of everything you do. All that's required is a letter from an A&P certifying that you have meet the requirements of the FAR's. It's then up to the FAA AWI to give the signoff's to take the 3 written test. In the past year I have signed off 3 individuals that worked under me for their A&P's.

As far as the second comment, partially true. You may also used accepted or approved data to perform a task, not necessarily under direct supervision.

ArmamentDawg · January 11, 2008

I'm an Apache Longbow armament, electrical and avionics tech for the Active Army. I'm taking my CPL checkride in a few weeks, then going to Korea to fix Apache's for a another year before I get out and start looking for a flying job. At that time, I will have 6 years experience focused almost enitirely on avionics troubleshooting. However, I can probably cross train informally in Korea.

Two questions:

I wouldn't mind being a mechanic, but I have to be a pilot. The reason I want an A&P ticket is basically to be a more competative pilot applicant. How much of a boost will an A&P ticket give my resume?

Has anyone converted military to A&P? If so, what steps do I need to take during my upcoming year in Korea?

apiaguy · January 11, 2008

My brother is an apache mechanic for the guard... he did army time on the huey then went civilian and got his A&P...

If you want to get it you can get some books that prep you for the oral and practical and of course the 3 writtens... otherwise I would just suggest that when you get out to take the 3 or 7 day prep at one of those school places (can't remember how long they are... maybe 2 weeks) anyway there advertised all the time in trade-a-plane.

Yes, the A&P will look good on your resume but when it comes to getting your first 10 jobs your flying time and skills will have to speak for themselves.

Pogue · January 11, 2008

I'm an Apache Longbow armament, electrical and avionics tech for the Active Army. I'm taking my CPL checkride in a few weeks, then going to Korea to fix Apache's for a another year before I get out and start looking for a flying job. At that time, I will have 6 years experience focused almost enitirely on avionics troubleshooting. However, I can probably cross train informally in Korea.

Two questions:

I wouldn't mind being a mechanic, but I have to be a pilot. The reason I want an A&P ticket is basically to be a more competative pilot applicant. How much of a boost will an A&P ticket give my resume?

Has anyone converted military to A&P? If so, what steps do I need to take during my upcoming year in Korea?

I know there's a program for 15T to A&P, and I'm sure the Repairer MOS's for other airframes have similar programs. I did Avionics in the Navy (15N equivalent) and it didn't map to A&P at all.

jet trash · January 11, 2008

I'm an Apache Longbow armament, electrical and avionics tech for the Active Army. I'm taking my CPL checkride in a few weeks, then going to Korea to fix Apache's for a another year before I get out and start looking for a flying job. At that time, I will have 6 years experience focused almost enitirely on avionics troubleshooting. However, I can probably cross train informally in Korea.

Two questions:

I wouldn't mind being a mechanic, but I have to be a pilot. The reason I want an A&P ticket is basically to be a more competative pilot applicant. How much of a boost will an A&P ticket give my resume?

Has anyone converted military to A&P? If so, what steps do I need to take during my upcoming year in Korea?

I was USNavy avionics tech and can tell you right now the FAA will not accept your military experience for the requirement to obtain the A&P. As someone else posted, you need to be in a MOS that will be accepted. I know in the Navy (years ago) that mechanics were either airframe or powerplant, but not both. So it was very hard to come up with the requirements. Most guys in either rate would moonlight at a local airport or the Navy flying club to get the 18 month requirement for the powerplant or airframe.

My last year in the Navy I worked phase crew on P3's. Since the avionics segment was short when I finished I would go work with powerplant or airframe and help them out. While it was great experience, the FAA would not give me credit due to my MOS.

Rogue · January 16, 2008

I'm an Apache Longbow armament, electrical and avionics tech for the Active Army. I'm taking my CPL checkride in a few weeks, then going to Korea to fix Apache's for a another year before I get out and start looking for a flying job. At that time, I will have 6 years experience focused almost enitirely on avionics troubleshooting. However, I can probably cross train informally in Korea.

Two questions:

I wouldn't mind being a mechanic, but I have to be a pilot. The reason I want an A&P ticket is basically to be a more competative pilot applicant. How much of a boost will an A&P ticket give my resume?

Has anyone converted military to A&P? If so, what steps do I need to take during my upcoming year in Korea?

Heck bro unless you totally hate the Army life and your job why not just stay until retirement? seriously!?! Something you can do - my brother transferred from active duty Air Force to the Air Force reserves with the stipulation that he was sent to Officer Training School - he then got hitched on a civilian job doing what he used to do as an active duty guy ( logistics ) and when he retires he'll pull in a double retirement ( civilian and military ) and the kicker was being an Officer he started out his civilian job as a GS 9 or something or something I'm not sure exactly but long story short he just made Captain and gets paid very very very well and his time on the flight line did not go to waste.

I hear you on being a good tech, I've been an auto repair technician for 15 years was an ASE Master at 22 years old and am very very good at it but point is at the end of the day I'm just a wrench and therefore I'm at the bottom of the ladder.

Fiasco · January 17, 2008

Heck bro unless you totally hate the Army life and your job why not just stay until retirement? seriously!?! Something you can do - my brother transferred from active duty Air Force to the Air Force reserves with the stipulation that he was sent to Officer Training School - he then got hitched on a civilian job doing what he used to do as an active duty guy ( logistics ) and when he retires he'll pull in a double retirement ( civilian and military ) and the kicker was being an Officer he started out his civilian job as a GS 9 or something or something I'm not sure exactly but long story short he just made Captain and gets paid very very very well and his time on the flight line did not go to waste.

I hear you on being a good tech, I've been an auto repair technician for 15 years was an ASE Master at 22 years old and am very very good at it but point is at the end of the day I'm just a wrench and therefore I'm at the bottom of the ladder.

My brother is a Chinook pilot stations at Ft. Campbell KY. His wife is a civilian who also works on base and manages base housing. He's 36 now, didn't become a pilot in the army until he was 30 spending his first 12 years there as an A&P on Chinooks.

He's 2 years from a potential retirement milestone and I'm 2 years older then him and looking for Helo training to start a new career!

Rogue · January 17, 2008

My brother is a Chinook pilot stations at Ft. Campbell KY. His wife is a civilian who also works on base and manages base housing. He's 36 now, didn't become a pilot in the army until he was 30 spending his first 12 years there as an A&P on Chinooks.

He's 2 years from a potential retirement milestone and I'm 2 years older then him and looking for Helo training to start a new career!

That's what I'm talking about!!! I wish I would have went military when I was 18! sooooo many benefits you can't count, I'll put it this way before my brother did the officer training he worked in logistics was offered a job at FedEx for like 80g's and he said no thanks. His civilian job is paying in that range now plus his reserve pay as a captain and TWO retirements!!! <--- some loop hole where this time counts towards this time or something.

and I gotta laugh every time I hear a pilot complain about pay after spending between 50 - 70k in training costs. I spent 30k to go to an automotive technical college and have since spent over $100k investing in tools and have topped out at starting pay for a helicopter pilot!!! jeez... if I had spent the last 15 years as a GOMER I'd be pretty high up on the pay scale by now

Edited January 17, 2008 by Rogue

copter doctor · January 17, 2008

I think that if you want to work on aircraft then going to a school is best route, if like ArmamentDawg you have some exp. you can try to do some training while in Korea with Embry-Riddle if they offer the AMT courses. I used both to get FAA sign off. As for pay, it depends on where and who you work for. Most places will star off 10-12 an hour. I have had my A&P 7 1/2 years and had 6 years Army before that and I make $27.44 an hour, thats 57,000 with out any O.T. , last year I made $76,000 so it depends. Of course if you primarily want to fly then go after it. I have a private rating and am working on additional ratings now.