Helicopter Instrument - ADF's

[BOATFIXERGUY]

Quick question to all of our expert CFII's and instrument pilots:

 

Taking the FAA Instrument - Helo next week, and for the life of me I can't figure out why the FAA has so many ADF questions. I counted like 45 or something. Now, I have never seen an ADF in a helicopter.

 

So my questions are:

 

1. Why does the FAA have so many questions on this topic?

2. On the oral, do they really ask about them?

 

-john

[Gunner]

1) Because it's the FAA...

2) Probably not unless there is an ADF in the helicopter.

 

disclaimer... if you fail the ADF questions it's not my fault!!! I wouldn't sweat it that much. Just lean the answers to the questions for the Written. Doub't it will come up very much in the Practical.

[BOATFIXERGUY]

disclaimer... if you fail the ADF questions it's not my fault!!! I wouldn't sweat it that much. Just lean the answers to the questions for the Written. Doub't it will come up very much in the Practical.

Sure, you had to put the disclaimer in there...I was going to drop your name to the examiner!

 

Thanks for the info.

[tattooed]

Interesting that you brought this up today.

I have been struggling thru trying to learn ADF for my PVT written (which I plan to take very soon). I even had my CFI help me work thru the problems today, and even he had trouble...clearly this instrument is not used!!!! His comment that aside from me having to TEACH the ADF one day, there is no reason at this point in nav technology to need it. It's not only rarely used, but as was posted, it's rarely seen.

 

There are 2 pages of ADF questions in the PVT test prep. It's nothing but annoying, difficult to remember equations to figure out our RB or MB....AARRGGHHH!!! When am I going to do equations in my head while I am flying???????? NEVER!

 

If anyone has any tips on getting thru ADF questions without a migrane, lemme know!!!!

[Gomer Pylot]

The FAA, like any bureaucracy, is slow to change. I've flown a number of helicopters with ADF installed, including 206s, and every IFR helicopter I've ever flown. They're very handy for listening to music, or ballgames, or talk radio. Not a lot of use otherwise, though, since NDBs are being removed at a rapid pace, and the ones still in place aren't being maintained in many cases. Lots of tradition is involved in the regulations though. Like any other FAA exercise, learn what you have to in order to pass the written, then do what you have to in the real world. I wouldn't expect many, if any, ADF questions on an oral, because modern CFIIs may not know any more about them than you do. Know about what is installed on the ship you fly, and you should be fine.

[BOATFIXERGUY]

They're very handy for listening to music, or ballgames, or talk radio.

 

Funny you should say that! When I had a mooney, before the ipod came around, I always checked the charts for radio stations on my route to have something to listen to. After the ipod, the first thing I did was had an aux jack put into my helicopter...(had sold the mooney before the ipod).

 

Thanks for the info!

 

 

john

[IFLY]

I used the ASA test prep on the computer and found all the adf questions and answered them wrong and the others right so I would have a list of them. I found a pattern in them with the correct answers. I listed all the correct answers and memorized them so when I had an adf question it had just one answer from my memorized list. 2 questions had 2 answers from my list but the higher number was correct both times. Wish I still had the list for you.

 

Jerry

[Gomer Pylot]

AM radio isn't my first choice of listening material, but if it's all you have, it's better than nothing, I guess. FM radio is OK, but for long trips it's annoying. In my car, I have XM radio and an mp3 player. I have a CD player also, but seldom use it. Mp3 is far more convenient. I've flown with guys who would never miss Rush or Paul Harvey. I just kept the ADF monitor switch down on my side.

[BOATFIXERGUY]

I used the ASA test prep on the computer and found all the adf questions and answered them wrong and the others right so I would have a list of them. I found a pattern in them with the correct answers. I listed all the correct answers and memorized them so when I had an adf question it had just one answer from my memorized list. 2 questions had 2 answers from my list but the higher number was correct both times. Wish I still had the list for you.

 

Jerry

Thanks. I have the new ASA ver 10.1 and the King set. I did the same thing you did on my private and commercial just to save time. An ADF really isn't that hard, just weird that they have so many questions on the subject when very few (in helicopters) use them.

[IFLY]

Most of the airplanes I've flown had them, I rented a Cardinal to fly up to Montana last year that had one...don't know if it worked.

 

Jerry

[tattooed]

Gomer Pylot

The FAA, like any bureaucracy, is slow to change. I've flown a number of helicopters with ADF installed, including 206s, and every IFR helicopter I've ever flown. They're very handy for listening to music, or ballgames, or talk radio. Not a lot of use otherwise, though, since NDBs are being removed at a rapid pace, and the ones still in place aren't being maintained in many cases. Lots of tradition is involved in the regulations though. Like any other FAA exercise, learn what you have to in order to pass the written, then do what you have to in the real world. I wouldn't expect many, if any, ADF questions on an oral, because modern CFIIs may not know any more about them than you do. Know about what is installed on the ship you fly, and you should be fine.

 

Yah, you're real funny. We have 15 or so helicopters. They are all equipped a bit differently. I have no idea if I can specifically request one for my checkride. I think most of them lack an ADF, honestly.

 

I'm gonna do my best to get thru this section, and not get too excited about it.

[jet trash]

ADF is still very much alive and in use today. In fact in many parts of the world it will be your primary navigation (excluding GPS)

 

When I was flying the Caribbean and Central/South America lots of airways were made up from ADF radials.

 

On the issue of the instrument rating a NDB approach is easy once you understand the basics. I still use the gouge "Push the head, Pull the tail" when executing an NDB approach. Also remember to monitor the audio while performing the approach as this is your only means of denoting a failure of the ADF station.

[Gomer Pylot]

ADF is alive, but barely. With a GPS and the proper data you can find any NDB easier than you can with an ADF. NDBs are expensive to maintain, using components that are no longer manufactured, and often impossible to buy. They won't last much longer, and in the US are mostly gone. They're even being removed as outer markers for ILS approaches. It's a deadend technology, but bureaucracy moves with glacial speed.

[lelebebbel]

Gomer Pylot

 

 

Yah, you're real funny. We have 15 or so helicopters. They are all equipped a bit differently. I have no idea if I can specifically request one for my checkride. I think most of them lack an ADF, honestly.

 

I'm gonna do my best to get thru this section, and not get too excited about it.

 

Don't worry, only the 2 instrument training ships have them. At least I don't remember seeing one in any of the other ones. Unlikely that it will come up in your check ride

(and even if it does, it'll be a lot easier than the questions in the testprep. Leave the calculator at home, just dial in the station you want, turn the volume up to identify, and follow the arrow.)

 

You might end up flying one with a VOR receiver though.

[arotrhd]

Remember to place an "Inop" decal over the ADF for the checkride...just be prepared with a simple answer if the examiner asks why.

The "I think the owner is looking trying find out what's wrong with it -" kind of response has worked well for me and some others I know. My examiner expected the ADF to be in-op and the only question I had in relationship to an ADF question was technicalities: ADFs (NDBs) used Bearings and VOR/VORTAC/Tacan uses Radials.

 

-WATCH FOR THE WIRES-

[LadyShay]

READ YOUR PTS!!! It very specifically states that if the heli is not equipped with ADF, then there will be no questions regarding ADF. That applies to many systems. No examiner is going to ask you questions regarding LORAN either. For that matter, no one is going to ask you RNAV questions. You might be asked to explain how we use GPS overlays for RNAV. Relax, learn the stuff you use and be a GPS badass. Garmin offers a beautiful download application that teaches the 430.

 

When I did my instrument rating and double I, the examiner was familiar with the machine I used for training. He knew I had trained on a R-22 instrument trainer with a Garmin 430, CDI with glideslope indicator, and Directional Gyro. He very fairly didn't ask me much regarding HSI's, ADF, etc....but drilled me regarding the equipment I had trained with and was expected to know. Bottom line, if I had experience with it I was expected to know it really well...but he wasn't an ass regarding things I had no exposure to.

 

Good luck!!!

[joker]

OK,

 

As usual, I'm going to stick my neck out here. Two reasons why I support the teaching of ADF (or at least use of bearing pointers) in aviation.

 

I agree, the ADFis dated technology. I agree, that I only really use ours for listening to radio. Done!

 

FIRSTLY:

 

HOWEVER, one skill that ADFdoes teach is how to fly needles. How many people get confused with the 'pull the tail / push the head" or "MB=MH+RB".

 

Well sorry to dissappoint you all, but flying the needles remains (and will always remain) a useful skill, whether it is ADF or newer GPS that gives you the location.

 

This is because, while your primary navaid uses the HSI, you often use bearing pointers your secondary navaids.

 

Now, in smaller helicopters with simpler GPS units, there usually isn't a way to couple a bearing pointer to the GPS. So ADF is often the only exposure that someone can get of 'flying needles' or even using information from needles as secondary information.

 

In most MFD, there is a way of bringing up multiple bearing pointers as well as a primary HSI. A complicated instrument approach might require you to use a combination of VORs and GPS to get through.

 

SECONDLY:

 

While much of the world has moved on from ADF , and most of the world will eventually do it, there is still a high proportion of the world that still use ADF as a backup to navigation. If you think you want to work outside of the US (probably the most advanced in terms of GPS navigation) then you'd better know ADFs. They'll be around for a long time yet!

 

That's all.

 

Joker

Edited February 7, 2008 by joker

[AngelFire_91]

Dude,

 

MH + RB = MB

 

My House + "R" (Our) Beer = My Beer

 

Easier way to remember the formula anyway.

 

I have a crude and fairly offensive to women way to remember the Head and Tail thing, but I'll leave it up to: If you want to know it PM me.

 

I really don't think ADF is all that difficult, it takes a little bit of getting used to the overhead picture. But don't let the math through you off. When I fly ADF approaches I don't even think about the math involved, just get a good picture in your head of where the station is (Where the head points) and where you are, and heading, draw it out on paper if you have too, for my checkride I had to draw a picture on my kneeboard, the examiner complemented me on it since I worked through it. he said most people give up and just say, oh well I'll never have to use this.

 

Flame me if you want, but I actually kind of like the ADF, Yes I've flown ADF approaches in a Helicopter, Yes I've flown hundreds of them in Airplanes, it just takes a little sitting down and drawing out the picture then thinking about it, Pretty soon you'll be doing them without even thinking about them. My flight instructor would have never let the Inop sticker fly, and I won't with my students either. I really feel that it only benefits you more in the end.

 

Try going HERE If you havent already.

 

These are great training aids and should help a lot.

 

Kevin

Edited February 7, 2008 by AngelFire_91

[BOATFIXERGUY]

That's what I like to see!

 

I started a simple "why for the adf's" question on the IFR test and we all got some very good instruction from our experts!

 

Thanks everyone!

[nbit]

I fly a helicopter with an ADF occassionally and had one in a plane I once owned. I find it extremely easy to fly approaches in. Actually, I own an ADF. (wonder how much that'll fetch on eBay? Give it to a museum later?)

 

I think there used to be a lot of ex-military types that flew TACAN RMI's in the military that have been with the FAA at one time or another in the past. Take note the two instruments (ADF and TACAN RMI) use the same principles for flying approaches, "fly the tail up, the head down". ...Even though those two radio navaids use completely different techniques in propagation and what the receiver does to get information about the signal. Also I agree with what jet trash said. As one travels, you'll still find ADF common in places other than the USA.

[tattooed]

Don't worry, only the 2 instrument training ships have them. At least I don't remember seeing one in any of the other ones. Unlikely that it will come up in your check ride

(and even if it does, it'll be a lot easier than the questions in the testprep. Leave the calculator at home, just dial in the station you want, turn the volume up to identify, and follow the arrow.)

 

You might end up flying one with a VOR receiver though.

 

 

The VOR I can handle. Already did some sim time (both Frasca and Microsoft 2004/X).

 

I take it your with HAI as well? Do I know yah? Been hoping to find another HAI person on here. Since I'm new to the Aviation industry, I have been anxious to meet people.

[tattooed]

joker (any anyone else)

 

I think the original point of this thread was how to get thru the written portion of ADF technology. I agree 100% that learning to FLY them is useful, and they do appear to be very simple, straightforward technology (I'm not that far along my PVT training other than dabbling with the VOR with sims.

What I have a HUGE problem with is getting thru the equation. Yes, it is simple, but am I really going to work out that forumla while I am flying? Seriously.

I keep waiting for someone to give me a "magical" technique for doing these written questions that'll make it all simpler.

 

 

 

AARRGGGHHHHH. Frustrated.

 

 

To add to it, I haven't flown since Jan 24th....weather has been aweful here, and my work schedule has not been helpful. Then I FINALLY got a flight Monday....nope...low ceiling...then yesterday....well, oil pressure gage read "RED" during my start-up, so we squawked it. We did find oil leaking from the overfill (dipstick read 5 qts), and the oil that was dripping out was foamy and looked more like a mocha than oil. Ugh. So, I'm getting twitchy and frustrated.

Edited February 7, 2008 by tattooed

[Gomer Pylot]

Even if a location has an NDB, you can use GPS to find it and do the same navigation. Just because there is an NDB, it doesn't mean you have to use an ADF for the navigation. If you have the coordinates for the NDB, you can easily use GPS in lieu of an ADF, and it's much easier and far more precise.

[joker]

Tattooed,

 

Sorry to hear of your delays and frustrations with your flight training.

 

I didn't mean to add to them by not specifically answering your question. I was merely following the natural wandering of this thread and responding to the suggestion that there is no place for ADF training in aviation today.

 

Gomer is right. GPS can be used in lieu of ADF. I hope I didn't suggest otherwise.

 

Let me reiterate my point.

 

I think that being able to fly on a single 'bearing pointer' or RMI type display is a useful skill to have. Gomer will know that, for example, the S76 EFIS allows us to bring up multiple bearing pointers. This adds more situational awareness and in some procedures is necessary...i.e. to anticipate an intercept, when coupled.

 

So, my support is for the continued teaching of that skill (which is the main thrust of ADF training - our topic in question). Regardless of where the source for the reference comes from (RMI, ADF, GPS) the skill is the same. ALL pilots should be absolutely comfortable with tracking a radial on a needle.

 

Just to go one step further, the fundimentals of using a needle will filter through to all over navaids. The numbers you get on your GPS display are simply a numerical portrayal of what an RMI or ADF needle would display.

 

So particularly when using a GPS without a fancy display, or even when using a glass cockpit MFD, tracking a bearing pointer and understanding that display is important.

 

I hope that clarifies my position on this.

 

Joker

 

I leave someone else to explain a 'magic' method of getting through the exam. It's been too long since I took that exam to remember the questions.

 

So

Edited February 8, 2008 by joker

[jet trash]

ADF is alive, but barely. With a GPS and the proper data you can find any NDB easier than you can with an ADF. NDBs are expensive to maintain, using components that are no longer manufactured, and often impossible to buy. They won't last much longer, and in the US are mostly gone. They're even being removed as outer markers for ILS approaches. It's a deadend technology, but bureaucracy moves with glacial speed.

 

The world of aviation is much larger than the United States. NDB's are still in use around the world.