Is there such a thing as a FW add on after Rotary Wing?

[HarleyDave]

I know this probably sounds like a crazy question. I know I want to get my Helicopter license first, and spend my money on getting the helicopter part squared away. But, I saw a local air field that has a Stearman, and the sound that radial engine made as it roared over my house has me feeling like some day getting my fixed wing license also (and tail wheel, high performance engine, ect).

 

If I go fixed wing first, every minute of flight time will be "I have to get this over quick so I can fly helicopters!" where as if I start off learning to fly helicopters I know I will be able to focus completely on helicopters and will be thinking over and over in my head "This is it! Im flying a helicopter! Here I Am! Boooo Yaaaaaaaaah! Come say 'skids are for kids to my face tough guy!'" You probably get the idea.

 

So that raised the question in my head. I can't find any mention of a "Fixed Wing Add On" for a person holding a Rotary Wing License online, in my copy of the AIM/FAR, the Rotorcraft Handbook, or on the forum anyplace.

 

I also agree that the fixed wing time would most likely make me a better more well rounded pilot, but I dont have that kind of cash sitting around. It will be a close call to make Helicopter School happen, working overtime this weekend, flying next weekend, then overtime the weekend after that, and on.

 

So that is the reason why I want to do this "backwards" if possible compared to how other people usually try and go about the add on process. Any help, advice, or direction (sorry vectoring?) to the correct references would be greatly appreciated.

 

And with that, I have to start work early tommarow, so all traffic: I am on the down wind leg, to the soft and fluffy bed. Good Night all.

[Goldy]

So that raised the question in my head. I can't find any mention of a "Fixed Wing Add On" for a person holding a Rotary Wing License online, in my copy of the AIM/FAR, the Rotorcraft Handbook, or on the forum anyplace.

 

It's pretty well laid out in FAR 61.109. You dont get much bang with your helo experience going to FW, but you get some. For a rotor to FW you technically don't need the 40 hours of flight time totals (because you already have it) but you do need to meet each specific flight requirement ( ie 3 hours of CC in a single engine airplane, 3 hours of night in a SE airplane, etc.) Those add up to 22 hours or so of F/W flight time. Who cares? FW is cheap and you probably need more than 22 hours to feel ready for the checkride.

 

Read that 61.109 a section carefully. It says you must log 40 hours of flight time total, it lists the areas of operations, but does not say that training must be in a F/W. BTW if you want to fly gliders it cuts 7 hours off the requirements. (from 10 to only 3)

 

Goldy

[lockedcj7]

Sure, that's the way I did it. I think I soloed with something like 7.5 hrs in airplanes. Once I met all the individual requirements, I was ready for the checkride. It didn't go smoothly and I could have been better prepared but I did pass. You probably won't be required to do a cross-country and certain parts of the oral may be omitted. Mine was abbreviated but YMMV. You also won't need to take another written.

[palmfish]

You can rent a C-150 for $70/hour or an R22 for $210/hour. If your end goal is to be dual rated, then why wouldn't you want to save a few thousand dollars and get your FW rating first?

 

At the end of the day, you're in the same place anyways...

[Helihead]

It's pretty well laid out in FAR 61.109. You dont get much bang with your helo experience going to FW, but you get some. For a rotor to FW you technically don't need the 40 hours of flight time totals (because you already have it) but you do need to meet each specific flight requirement ( ie 3 hours of CC in a single engine airplane, 3 hours of night in a SE airplane, etc.) Those add up to 22 hours or so of F/W flight time. Who cares? FW is cheap and you probably need more than 22 hours to feel ready for the checkride.

 

Read that 61.109 a section carefully. It says you must log 40 hours of flight time total, it lists the areas of operations, but does not say that training must be in a F/W. BTW if you want to fly gliders it cuts 7 hours off the requirements. (from 10 to only 3)

 

Goldy

 

Hi, I think you need 30 hours in a fixed wing, 20 dual 10 solo. and of course do the aero experience listed. 61.109

Edited April 17, 2008 by Helihead

[Goldy]

Hi, I think you need 30 hours in a fixed wing, 20 dual 10 solo. and of course do the aero experience listed. 61.109

 

Yes you do need that....but not necessarily in a fixed wing. There is not a requirement to do the time in a F/W...just to have the time. And he will already have that when he gets his helo PPL.

Make sense..??

Goldy

[Helihead]

Yes you do need that....but not necessarily in a fixed wing. There is not a requirement to do the time in a F/W...just to have the time. And he will already have that when he gets his helo PPL.

Make sense..??

Goldy

 

So how many hours for my Heli add on did I need..... It makes sense, I understood it as 40 in a powered aircraft 20 dual sel and 10 solo sel, so only 10 of the helicopter would count????? maybe i am wrong, the way the told me for FW to helo was 20 dual and 10 solo, minnimum, went way over, just thought it would be the same as helo to FW...

 

Sec. 61.109 - Aeronautical experience.

 

(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107((1) of this part, and the training must include at least --

 

(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a single-engine airplane;

 

(2) Except as provided in §61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a single-engine airplane that includes --

 

(i) One cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total distance; and

 

(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

 

(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight;

 

(4) 3 hours of flight training in preparation for the practical test in a single-engine airplane, which must have been performed within 60 days preceding the date of the test; and

 

(5) 10 hours of solo flight time in a single-engine airplane, consisting of at least --

 

(i) 5 hours of solo cross-country time;

 

(ii) One solo cross-country flight of at least 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at a minimum of three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of at least 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and

 

(iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

 

 

c) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107((3) of this part, and the training must include at least --

 

(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a helicopter;

 

(2) Except as provided in §61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a helicopter that includes --

 

(i) One cross-country flight of over 50 nautical miles total distance; and

 

(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

 

(3) 3 hours of flight training in preparation for the practical test in a helicopter, which must have been performed within 60 days preceding the date of the test; and

 

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a helicopter, consisting of at least --

 

(i) 3 hours cross-country time;

 

(ii) One solo cross-country flight of at least 75 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, and one segment of the flight being a straight-line distance of at least 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and

 

(iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

[Goldy]

Ok, lets see if I can explain it a lil different. "a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor"

 

"airplane category and single-engine class rating". This statement relates to the TYPE of CERTIFICATE the paragraph refers to, NOT the type of aircraft you have to fly to meet that time.

 

So yes, in this case you would need 40 hours of flight time...no where does it say it has to be in a FW.

Including 20 hours of dual...also doesnt state it has to be in a fixed wing....so your rotor time counts.

 

Most people read the section too fast, and they make an assumption that it must be done in the type of aircraft you are applying for....which it does not state.

 

The glider section spells it out nice. 61.109 f2 It comes right out and uses the term "heavier than air aircraft"...but 61.109 you really have to read it.

 

Remember, its the same people who write the tax code !!

 

And no, you did not need 40 hours to get your Helo add on.....but you probably needed at least 40 hours to feel good about your checkride!

 

Locked CJ- Damn, I remembered that, but forgot to put it in my post...you beat me to it ! You do NOT need to take another knowledge test. Anyone that wants to look it up, go to FAR 61.63 b5 (thats my old 2006 book).

 

Goldy

[lockedcj7]

You can rent a C-150 for $70/hour or an R22 for $210/hour. If your end goal is to be dual rated, then why wouldn't you want to save a few thousand dollars and get your FW rating first?

 

At the end of the day, you're in the same place anyways...

 

 

Two reasons. First, I needed lots of hours to get my commercial helicopter and only some of the FW hours count. The second is that airplane pilots think and act differently. They obsess about pitch-power-and-trim where helicopter pilots fly off of performance. Helicopter pilots emphasize attitude, airspeed and climb/descent rate. FW guys also tend to fly higher and use faster/shallower approaches.

 

In addition, they have airplane reflexes which can get you killed in a helicopter. Helicopter reflexes in an airplane aren't nearly so dangerous. If you make the wrong control input at the wrong time, airplanes typically give you enough time to recover. Helicopters are a lot less forgiving.

 

If I wanted to fly airplanes primarily then I would get the airplane ratings first. I wanted the FW ratings for personal travel, convenience and versatility. I also wanted to get my Inst. rating in the airplane where it would be cheaper. Adding on the RW-inst. should be pretty straight-forward.

[palmfish]

Two reasons. First, I needed lots of hours to get my commercial helicopter and only some of the FW hours count. The second is that airplane pilots think and act differently. They obsess about pitch-power-and-trim where helicopter pilots fly off of performance. Helicopter pilots emphasize attitude, airspeed and climb/descent rate. FW guys also tend to fly higher and use faster/shallower approaches.

 

In addition, they have airplane reflexes which can get you killed in a helicopter. Helicopter reflexes in an airplane aren't nearly so dangerous. If you make the wrong control input at the wrong time, airplanes typically give you enough time to recover. Helicopters are a lot less forgiving.

 

If I wanted to fly airplanes primarily then I would get the airplane ratings first. I wanted the FW ratings for personal travel, convenience and versatility. I also wanted to get my Inst. rating in the airplane where it would be cheaper. Adding on the RW-inst. should be pretty straight-forward.

 

Speaking from a strickly financial standpoint (the OP did say, "I dont have that kind of cash sitting around. It will be a close call to make Helicopter School happen, working overtime this weekend, flying next weekend, then overtime the weekend after that, and on."), if he gets his private airplane first, he will save a lot of money. To get his PPL ASEL, he will fly no less than 40 hrs total - 20 of which is dual. In an ideal world, his PPL ASEL will cost $3600 - $2800 for C-150 rental ($70 X 40hrs) plus $800 for instruction ($40 X 20hrs).

 

Then to add-on a PPL RW rating, he would (at a minimum) need the following: 9 hours dual (3 hrs cross-country, 3 hrs night, 3 hrs practical exam "prep") and 3 hours solo (150 NM cross-country with 3 t/o and landings). Again, in an ideal world, that would cost $2880 - $2520 for R22 rental ($210 X 12) and $360 for instruction ($40 X 9). Grand total is a minimum of $6480.

 

Do it the other way around, and the PPL RW costs $9200 - $8400 ($210 X 40hrs) plus $800 for instruction ($40 X 20hrs) and the ASEL add-on will cost $1670 - $1190 for C-150 rental ($70 X 17hrs) plus $480 for instruction ($40 X 12hrs). Grand total is a minimum of $10,070.

 

From a training standpoint, one can make a valid point for the advantages and disadvantages of training both ways. And I agree that his end goal (FW for pleasure, RW for career vs. both for pleasure) should also be considered. I also acknowledge that the numbers I used are not "real world" - only consistent for the sake of making a comparison. For what it's worth, I received my commercial and instrument RW ratings before ever touching the controls of an airplane and I agree that going from RW to FW is an easier transition than doing it the other way around.

 

But I think saying airplane reflexes will "get you killed in a helicopter" and "helicopter reflexes in an airplane aren't nearly so dangerous" is misleading. It goes both ways (for example, consider how you have to remind yourself to keep your nose down and airspeed up on final when holding a yoke and throttle). They fly differently, yes, but proper education and training will teach you not to use the "wrong reflexes" (and I would argue that at the 40 or 50 hour mark, a pilot has developed little "reflex" at all). Really, what is the difference between a pilot who has 40 hrs FW and 20 hrs RW verses the other way around? In my opinion, the biggest difference is the size of the bank account

 

I'm not saying there's a right way or a wrong way. As someone who still has to consciously remind himself to keep his nose down and airspeed up on final, I'm just throwing in my $0.02.

Edited April 18, 2008 by palmfish

[JDHelicopterPilot]

Whew, I just saw this topic. It's a hot one!

 

Anyway, I added on my private SEL to my private rotorcraft. I soloed in 5 hours, and check ride at 25 hours. It was so easy to do. Goldy is right on as far as what the FAR's say you can do.

 

Now, I see there are concerns about negitive transfer of procedures and information when going from category to category of aircraft. Yes, procedures are different. I fly fixed wing right now for fun and fly helicopters professionaly. I have never had any problem jumping back and forth.

 

My examiner that gave me my Instrument-H and Commercail-H would fly from Sacramento, Ca to Oakland, Ca IFR in the soup and do the helicopter checkrides and fly back home again in a Cessna 150. I never noticed anything while we did EP's and full downs.

 

My point, don't let someone tell you it is so dangerous to fly both because of the difference in procedures. Just take a minute and think about what you are flying. Review procedures and limits each time you change aircraft types. This applies to changes with in the same category of aircraft as well. For example, I used to fly a AS350D then in the same day fly a AS350BA. Different limitations and procedures including EP's. Again, I would review the procedures each time I changed aircraft. There is no way I would be able to remember everything for all the aircraft I have flown or qualified to.

[Goldy]

Whew, I just saw this topic. It's a hot one!

 

Goldy is right on as far as what the FAR's say you can do.

 

 

 

I have never had any problem jumping back and forth.

 

JD- Whew ! Thanks for the back up on this one...I was feeling lonely out there.

 

I know lots of folks that fly both...I just dont like FW enough to go get it. I do have a hard time pulling Neg G's in a glider though....being a Robbie pilot, my body doesnt like to feel Neg G's !!

 

Goldy

[Helihead]

JD- Whew ! Thanks for the back up on this one...I was feeling lonely out there.

 

I know lots of folks that fly both...I just dont like FW enough to go get it. I do have a hard time pulling Neg G's in a glider though....being a Robbie pilot, my body doesnt like to feel Neg G's !!

 

Goldy

 

SORRY! People where I trained were telling me 20 dual and 10 solo... over and over ... even signed a thing saying it was 20 dual and 10 solo for a total of thirty. Obviously not...... might have to talk with people at the school. I am a little embarassed.

[Goldy]

SORRY! People where I trained were telling me 20 dual and 10 solo... over and over ... even signed a thing saying it was 20 dual and 10 solo for a total of thirty. Obviously not...... might have to talk with people at the school. I am a little embarassed.

 

 

 

Heli- NO way..don't feel that way at all. Ask 100 people you will get 100 different answers. I just feel pretty comfortable with the FAR's....that doesnt mean that your FSDO agrees! And never feel bad about questioning anything...that is what this board is all about, if we each can't learn something why bother ! BTW...many people read things into the FAR's that just aren't there. ..I think I will start a new post with a couple often misunderstood sections....just to get some blood flowing !!

 

See ya, Fly safe, Goldy

[lockedcj7]

I don't come here to argue. If I wanted to argue, I'd go to the dark side at JH. I come here to read and learn. All I can do is give my opinion based on my experience. Everyone has different experiences and different perceptions which leads to a difference of opinion. Many members here have more experience than me and many have less. Like most people, I repeat what I've learned from instructors and books. If they are wrong, I'm doomed to be wrong until I read, hear or experience something that convinces me that what I held to be true is, in fact, not true.

 

I've had several instructors comment on the differences between helicopter pilots and airplane pilots. Robinson published SN 29 dealing with this very issue. I've never had a problem either (other than having to force myself to lower the nose and keep the speed up on final) but I'm aware that the danger is real and I'm not going to let myself get complacent. I know lots of people who are dual rated but they all tend to think of themselves as helicopter pilots who can also fly airplanes or airplane pilots who also have a RW rating.

 

Robinson Safety Notice 29

 

No one can argue with the economics. Getting all your certificates in a FW and adding on the RW is going to be cheaper but just because you have the ratings doesn't mean that you can use them. The problem for me was that I needed 300 hours in helicopters to instruct due to insurance requirements. If I was going to be paying for those hours anyway, I might as well do my ab initio training in the R-22. We all know that hours mean everything in helicopters and FW hours don't count for much.

[Darkhorse]

that doesnt mean that your FSDO agrees!

 

See ya, Fly safe, Goldy

 

 

Very true, when i called FSDO inquiring about this same question I was told I was required to have 40 hours of fixed wing (part 61) or 35 (part 141) and I could add on rw with only 20 hours in helicopters. However if I did rw first I would need 40 hours rw and then would still need 40 hours fixed wing.

 

He even went as far to say it didnt make sense because helicopters were so much harder to fly it should be the other way around because chances are your still going to need 40 hours in a heli to be proficient even if you have a fw rating.

 

Reading for myself I agree with Goldy

[palmfish]

Don't worry, nobody's here to argue. The OP came asking for opinions and advice, and everyone who has answered has different thoughts and experiences. All of the responses he gets are valuable.

 

That's what's great about these forums - you can ask a question, read all the various comments, and make a more educated decision.

 

In my case, I'm not a CFI, nor do I have plans to become one. I have no first-hand experience to share regarding training in a piston helicopter, the best path to take towards becoming a CFI, how long/how many hours it takes to prepare for soloing or the practical examination, or what the aviation job market (RW or FW) is currently like.

 

I'm just giving my opinion as a dual-rated pilot who flies both helicopters and airplanes on a regular basis (sometimes during the same day).

 

EDIT: Goldy, I have to agree with you about Negative G's - guess I'll never be a fighter pilot...

Edited April 18, 2008 by palmfish

[HarleyDave]

WOW!

 

I left for work, came back, and there is the aeronautical equivalent of a rosetta stone waiting for me! My sincere thanks to everyone, this makes alot more sense now. I think I may start in fixed wing then, I'm sure I can keep up the overtime parade long enough to make this happen (Applying for higher paying jobs right now actually). I do feel more confident about the choices available going foreward now.

 

Thank you all.

[Crusty Old Dude]

You can rent a C-150 for $70/hour or an R22 for $210/hour. If your end goal is to be dual rated, then why wouldn't you want to save a few thousand dollars and get your FW rating first?

 

At the end of the day, you're in the same place anyways...

Palmfish,

 

I brought this very question up a few times and I always get the same "muscle memory" and "if you're going to fly helicopters then just fly helicopters" type discussions on this. But I seriously looked at this and it seems that you could save $10K to 20K doing this. But what about that 300 hour requirement for insurance, etc? Does that slow down your ability to get into that CFI position?

[palmfish]

Palmfish,

 

I brought this very question up a few times and I always get the same "muscle memory" and "if you're going to fly helicopters then just fly helicopters" type discussions on this. But I seriously looked at this and it seems that you could save $10K to 20K doing this. But what about that 300 hour requirement for insurance, etc? Does that slow down your ability to get into that CFI position?

 

Personally, I simply don't think "muscle memory" is a significant factor for learning to fly. In my opinion, at the 40 or 50 hours TT mark, a pilot has no significant "muscle memory" - they are still flying "cognitively" rather than "instinctively."

 

As for getting 300 hrs and working as a CFI, I haven't crunched those numbers (it would take a bit of effort) to see if the savings still ring true. I suspect the savings will diminish as the airplane hours become a smaller and smaller percentage of TT flown. Someone who wants to become a helicopter CFI and follow that path should pull the flight requirements out of the FAR and crunch the numbers.

Edited April 23, 2008 by palmfish

[gr8shandini]

I'm in a somewhat similar situation and had a few questions. To make a long story short, I'm close enough to a fixed wing PPL that it doesn't make any sense to stop now, but I was wondering if I should continue through commercial and instrument in a fixed wing before transitioning to helos.

 

Is the 300 hr insurance requirement just on the Robbies, or is that common for all helo types? For various reasons I don't intend to fly R-22s, so what would be the prospects for a CFI gig in a 300 if I end up with about 450TT but only 200 or so in a helo?

 

As for transitioning between the two types in general, I know many folks who do it all the time, but the only horror story I've heard was a helo guy who nearly stalled on final every time he got in an airplane. He just couldn't catch on and it got to the point that my friend who was his CFI told him to find another instructor.

Edited April 23, 2008 by gr8shandini

[SquirrelFlight]

I am about to finish up my helicopter private (checkride as soon as we can schedule an examiner - all the ones in the area except one seem to have gone on vacation, and the one left over won't be able to fit me in for another 2 weeks) as an add-on to my private SEL.

 

Just for reference, I had nearly 250 hours fixed wing before I stopped flying about three years ago (it was a hobby, I wasn't able to finance it anymore) . Even though it had been well over two and a half years since I've flown fixed wing, I still had "bad" habits to correct. In any case, I needed right about 90 hours helicopter to be ready for my checkride. Of course, I'm also working on it while working full time (a full 8 hours at work, drive to airport, fly, drive home, eat dinner, go to bed, repeat). If I were able to spend all my time at the airport working on flying, it'd probably have been a lot quicker. My instructor tells me that, at least at Quantum, 90-100 hours is pretty typical for a private, whether or not it's an add-on.

 

I guess the point is, someone made the comment that, since you need fewer hour in a helicopter to complete the add-on, it's cheaper to get the FW first... in my case, it didn't really make any difference when it came down to it. I suppose it saved my some ground instruction (no need to spend a lot of time on cross-country planning), but that's about it.

[gr8shandini]

I'd agree in your case; however, if you had gotten your commercial in those 250 hrs, you'd have a commercial helo license now and one could argue that you've saved a bunch of dough. However, if you're still unable to get a job without 300 hrs helo, you haven't saved yourself much. That's where it gets complicated.