Updating VR - Part 2

[AdminLB]

As disussed in Part 1, we are in the process of modifying/updating/refreshing verticalreference.com. Generally speaking, 85% of the components of the site will not change except perhaps a little in their presentation. Here is a summary of what you can expect when you see the new VR.

 

Will NOT change at all:

• VR FORUMS, VR BLOGS, VR CHAT.

• I did add a subforum for Obituaries and Memorials.

• I will also be adding a subforum in the Employment Forums titled “Find a Contract/Relief/Ferry Pilot or Mechanic”. This will be a place for folks interested in part time or contract work to post their qualifications.

 

Components that will NOT change in general content, but will change a little in presentation:

• Home Page

• Employment – Pilot Jobs, Mechanic Jobs

• Resources for aspiring pilots and working pilots

• Links

• Photo Galleries

• Classified ads – Parts and aircraft for sale

• Flight School Directory – will be presented first by location and will be in conjunction with a google map. It is well documented that when a person begins investigating flight training, the first question is, “Where is the nearest school to me?” We want to accommodate that need.

 

2 components that will be cut from the site for which I expect to take some heat over…….

• Publicly Viewed Resume Database

• Flight School Reviews

 

We have gotten both positive and negative feedback with regards to these 2 sections. There are arguments for and against them. Some are arguments from the visitor’s perspective and some are argument from a business perspective. I imagine there will be some follow on discussion on these two areas within this thread, which is welcome.

[AngelFire_91]

Well, let me be the first to get the discussion rolling...

 

I don't think the Flight School Review should go. It's pretty much the only place on the internet, that I know of, that has anything like it. It helped me out a while ago, and I'm sure it's helped a lot of people. Plus, I could be wrong, but I think we will get an influx of "Has anybody heard of...." questions on the forum with the same responses everytime. If it has to go, I understand, there isn't too many reviews in there, but what is in there is helpful. If the businesses don't like what's being said of them, then tough. Use it as a learning experience and change the way you operate.

 

Just my $0.02

[Hovergirl]

I agree with Angelfire. There are always LOTS of questions about flight schools from potential students, and this is one of the better places on the web I found to get answers. Sure, it's just people's opinions, but most everything else I found is just advertising. And it will keep the other forums on topic. Right now if someone wants to compliment or flame a flight school we can direct them to the school reviews, and having more than one opinion in one place might give some semblance of balance. It's a great resource and I'd like to see it Somewhere on the web.

 

Thanks for all your work on making this a great site!

 

HVG

[permison]

Lynn,

Can you do something about all the connections opened by the site? When ever I load the main page, I get 20 or more open connections on my desktop. You can see these by doing a "netstat" from the command line with the VR landing page open in the browser. I think it is coming from all the ads and links to other media sources on the page.

permison

[rockymtnrotor]

I agree that the Flight School Review section is the only place I know of to get good info from students and it should not be removed. Most of the members of this site are students or aspiring students and the site should be catered to them.

[AdminLB]

Thanks so much for the replies thus far. I value each of your suggestions. I figured that the issue of the "school review" section would be of interest, but before I shared my perspective, I wanted to get some feedback. Thanks.

 

These are a few issues that I am wrestling with as far as that section is concerned.....another perspective

 

1. This section of the site is a liability for Verticalreference.com. I have been contacted by and heard from several sources about positive reviews that were made by company personnel or plants. I also know that many bad reviews have come from competitors and/or disgruntled ex employees or students. Very few of the companies who were placed into that segment were done at the request of the companies themselves. So by default, if a company was placed into the review segment without their knowledge by VR and inaccurate information is being posted, then we are liable to some degree. Unfortunately, we do not have the resources to review the validity of the sources of the reviews or their content. Discussion forums are much better methods for sharing experiences (positive and negative) as they are originated by and are discussed by third parties (interested visitors). Additionally, discussion forums give equal time and opportunity for the schools owners to participate in the discussion in their own defense in the wake of a poor review.

 

2. It is redundant. There is already a very busy Flight Training – School Reviews Forum on VR which is 100% searchable and has over 1580 topics and over 16,000 replies to those messages. I doubt there is a school out there that has not been discussed to some degree in that forum. It is very easy to do a keyword search on any school in that forum and if it has been discussed, the info is presented. For example, I did a search for “Bristow” and 3 full pages of posts were presented to me with lots of info and opinions.

 

3. As stated in Part 1 of this series of posts, we are trying to get VR down to just two technology platforms. One - this message board (Invision Power Board) and Two - the rest of the site/portal which will be in DotNetNuke. The reviews section in its current state is not compatible. But that is not really the main issue because if I throw $$ at programmers they can make anything you want. Numbers one and two above are more of a concern.....liability and redundancy.

 

Counterpoints are encouraged.

 

Ps. I agree about catering to the visitors of the site.

[permison]

Thanks so much for the replies thus far. I value each of your suggestions. I figured that the issue of the "school review" section would be of interest, but before I shared my perspective, I wanted to get some feedback. Thanks.

 

These are a few issues that I am wrestling with as far as that section is concerned.....another perspective

 

1. This section of the site is a liability for Verticalreference.com. I have been contacted by and heard from several sources about positive reviews that were made by company personnel or plants. I also know that many bad reviews have come from competitors and/or disgruntled ex employees or students. Very few of the companies who were placed into that segment were done at the request of the companies themselves. So by default, if a company was placed into the review segment without their knowledge by VR and inaccurate information is being posted, then we are liable to some degree. Unfortunately, we do not have the resources to review the validity of the sources of the reviews or their content. Discussion forums are much better methods for sharing experiences (positive and negative) as they are originated by and are discussed by third parties (interested visitors). Additionally, discussion forums give equal time and opportunity for the schools owners to participate in the discussion in their own defense in the wake of a poor review.

 

2. It is redundant. There is already a very busy Flight Training – School Reviews Forum on VR which is 100% searchable and has over 1580 topics and over 16,000 replies to those messages. I doubt there is a school out there that has not been discussed to some degree in that forum. It is very easy to do a keyword search on any school in that forum and if it has been discussed, the info is presented. For example, I did a search for “Bristow” and 3 full pages of posts were presented to me with lots of info and opinions.

 

3. As stated in Part 1 of this series of posts, we are trying to get VR down to just two technology platforms. One - this message board (Invision Power Board) and Two - the rest of the site/portal which will be in DotNetNuke. The reviews section in its current state is not compatible. But that is not really the main issue because if I throw $$ at programmers they can make anything you want. Numbers one and two above are more of a concern.....liability and redundancy.

 

Counterpoints are encouraged.

 

Ps. I agree about catering to the visitors of the site.

 

I agree you have a potential liability here. I am not a lawyer but I have managed a couple of well known websites (AOL.com, The Atlantic.com, Nationaljournal.com, and a few others). We dealt with the liability of posts and articles all the time. The "fact" is freedom of speech should cover most of what is posted as it is an opinion and stated as such. The "Problem" is just because it is a protected act does not limit one's ability to bring suit, but does limit their ability to win (boy I do sound like a lawyer, I swear I’m not!). I agree bringing down the reviews will greatly limit your liability for things posted but does not absolve it completely. I know this because we experienced it just about every day at AOL and a couple of times at the Atlantic. I managed the development shops and regularly was privy to suits brought against the company for slander, libel, and other various forms of limiting free speech. It’s a sad state that our country has come to this because the reviews can be helpful to people researching schools to attend. It’s an easier resource to find info about a school rather then search through all the posts on the forums (which as we know can be time consuming).

 

BTW Lynn, if I can help in anyway as you do the mods to the site, drop me a PM.

Permison

[Goldy]

1. This section of the site is a liability for Verticalreference.com. I have been contacted by and heard from several sources about positive reviews that were made by company personnel or plants. I also know that many bad reviews have come from competitors and/or disgruntled ex employees or students.

 

Counterpoints are encouraged.

 

OK then !! Counterpoint

 

What if instead of posting a comment, we could just place our screen name as having comments for that school. Then anyone who wanted to know our comments, good or bad, could PM us directly...that and the Training forum would still allow prospective students to get feedback.

 

I understand the liability completely. While we can all say freedom of speech, you still have to respond to a lawsuit, whether that suit has any foundation or not..

 

Goldy

[AngelFire_91]

OK then !! Counterpoint

 

What if instead of posting a comment, we could just place our screen name as having comments for that school. Then anyone who wanted to know our comments, good or bad, could PM us directly...that and the Training forum would still allow prospective students to get feedback.

 

I understand the liability completely. While we can all say freedom of speech, you still have to respond to a lawsuit, whether that suit has any foundation or not..

 

Goldy

 

Ooooooo, I like that idea...

[Darren Hughes]

Ooooooo, I like that idea...

 

I second that!! I also like that AngelFire managed to get so many O's into 1 word!!!

[captkirkyota]

I second that!! I also like that AngelFire managed to get so many O's into 1 word!!!

 

I'd suggest that everyone who has posted a review, copy the text and save it in your e-mail somewhere.

I did some major mods to my truck in 2003 and I still get questions about specs and what not. If had not made a master list and was not able to copy/paste and send, I'd have shortchanged people long ago after the 50th request as to the specs. Just a little friendly advice, for those of you who want to offer your friendly advice/opinion on a flight school.

[AdminLB]

OK then !! Counterpoint

 

What if instead of posting a comment, we could just place our screen name as having comments for that school. Then anyone who wanted to know our comments, good or bad, could PM us directly...that and the Training forum would still allow prospective students to get feedback.

 

I understand the liability completely. While we can all say freedom of speech, you still have to respond to a lawsuit, whether that suit has any foundation or not..

 

Goldy

Thanks for the suggestion Goldy. The liablity is not in what you the visitor has to say. The liability is in "who" is sponsoring the information.

 

As it stands now, VR has taken nearly every flight school (by name), whether they liked it or not and said. "OK everyone, tell us your good and your bad about xyz school. We are eliciting responses, but have no way, or the resources to verify who is making the responses and their accuracy.

 

It is very much different on a "message board" in that ALL questions and requests for information AND replies to those requests are made by free thinking third parties. Liability is drastically reduced in this scenario because message board discussions fall under the Federal Communications Act of 1996. This legislation protects website owners from being sued for something that a third party might say. In other words, how am I, a website owner, supposed to control the thoughts, words, and opinions of another free thinking person in a free society. Now, if there is something obviously illegal which someone has written, then I am notified of it, then I tell that person to pound sand.........then I now become the sponsor of the activity and can incur liability.

 

I want you to know that I am very aware of the law in this regard as I was sued once for a post that was made on Justhelicopters.com. This was a post by the way which, A - mentioned not a single persons name. B - I followed the instructions of the complainant when the post was reported. A month later I was served a lawsuit which named my company, me personally, and John Doe 1 thru 10. The person suing me assumed that "the Post" was referring to them, even though there was no names mentioned. Also, that person's lawyer was a friend who helped file the suit and was not familiar with the law regarding the issue. The case was quickly dropped, but not before I had to cash in my then 3 year old daughters college fund to retain a lawyer to file the appropriate motions. The person filing the suit spent about $280 to file it and I spent several thousand. In the end, I cannot afford any obvious liabilities as I am sure you can understand.

 

I do agree that using the forum as the tool for information sharing has ONE disadvantage......it does not package the information as neatly as the review section.

 

However, with regard to the advantages of using the "Flight Training and School Reviews" Forum as the tool for sharing information.......

• It is an already very well established resource with over 16000 messages
  
• It is searchable
  
• If someone asks a question about xyz flight school, visitors can answer out right, or can still offer a PM session.
  
• Visitors can get much more timely information. A review from July 2006 may be irrelevant for someone inquiring about xyz school today.
  
• It does not shut out the schools from the process. The schools can participate and reply to good and bad reviews, even sincerely looking to improve the quality of their product or service.
  
• It reduces my liability
  

I hope you can appreciate my perspective from a business standpoint. I certainly value the wants and needs of the visitors......no visitors = no website. But I do have to balance that with reasonable risks that will allow me to keep the site up and running for many years to come.

 

Not sure if any of that makes sense.

[AngelFire_91]

Point taken! Understood, and will comply.

 

I understand where you are coming from; I just hate to see it go. But, you've made a very convincing argument and I can see where you feel it's a liability. Thanks for your efforts in keeping the site running, and we all appreciate everything you do for us.

 

It was worth a shot...