FITS (FAA Industry Training Standards) SBT Curriculums.

[Goldy]

Ok, so I finally got it. Last month I was thrilled to attend a full day course of teaching the FITS/SBT curriculum. I was wondering, besides Leading Edge in Oregon and CoHeliOps outside of Denver, who else is teaching this?

 

But especially, if you have been a student, or CFI, that went thru this program please leave a message as I would love to talk to you.

 

For the rest of you that have no clue what I am talking about, well, you should probably devote a few days to learning what it's all about. I was lucky enough to spend the day with Mike Franz, who travels around, spreading the good word!

 

I would have to characterize it as a whole new way of learning how to fly and I'm excited for those schools that are teaching it.

 

Goldy

[bqmassey]

Good to see you showing up around here a little more often, Goldy!

 

There are several reasons that I wouldn't automatically give an SBT school more acclaim simply because they declare themselves an SBT school:

1. A lot of the really helpful concepts in FITS SBT have been practiced by good instructors for decades, whether they've had FITS SBT training or not. FITS SBT didn't create new methods of training people as much as it identified, named, and validated their effectiveness. It may be an improvement over the status quo, but formal implementation of FITS SBT isn't a prerequisite for quality instruction.
2. It seems that most of the analyses of the FITS SBT program tested it as a whole. I'd like to see more research done into the effectiveness of individual principles of FITS SBT to further refine it and remove any pieces that are hypothetical.
3. For it to be truly effective you need participants to have a very thorough understanding of FITS SBT and then to be dedicated to it. All levels of the flight school (management, instructors, and students) have to understand and buy in to it. A two-day class alone isn't enough to guarantee either.
4. It's very easy for a school to claim to be (and appear to be) implementing SBT comprehensively without actually doing so. It can easily be made into little more than a marketing tool.

With that being said, my opinion of FITS SBT is still that, in most cases, a full implementation will be an improvement over no implementation at all.

[Goldy]

Hey BQ- totally agree. But it is a complete revamp of what most Part 91 or even Part 141 training offers. If I could do it all over again, knowing what I know today, I would be searching out a school that lives and breathes these concepts.

 

You're right, some schools and some instructors offer pieces of the program, but not many out there are immersed in it. And yes, it's old tech not new. The FAA developed it decades ago, but it may just have been ahead of its time.

 

Still want to hear from schools and students that know what the heck I'm talking about!

 

Goldy

[Matt321]

I agree, this is nothing new, and it's not the end all be all of effective initial training. It works best after initial certification in my opinion. I think it should be done during commercial training, and obviously during cfi but certainly not every flight. Along with sbt there should be an accident analysis, preferably related to the situation. I know some already do this. Giving it a cool name and putting it on the website is just a marketing ploy though, sbt is all about execution, not a cool program written down that gets lip service only. Done properly it takes more time, and should not be rushed. We all know in the civilian world time is money, so I would expect these programs to be more expensive. So I guess if you're a student looking at one of these schools, talk to some other current students and instructors to help you determine if the program is all fluff or not.

[Mikemv]

No Sale offered.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Mike

Edited September 29, 2015 by Mikemv

[Matt321]

It sounds exactly like you're trying to sell something, and I'm not buying. A flight school doesn't need to have your stamp on it to use the concepts you speak of. This stuff has been around for a lot longer than 2007, it was just packaged differently. I think it's great that you want to improve training. My point is that schools that don't buy your program are no worse off and in some cases, better, and can still use the concepts and methodology in their training.

You're telling me that ADM, situational awareness, risk management, resource management, SBT are NEW concepts? Where have you been? Schools can do this without paying you a dime.

Goldy specifically said "SBT school". I get that there are other parts to it, my point was that it more limited at the private level for SBT and other applications of concepts. Obviously the concepts are still taught at that level just not to nearly the same extent. There isn't time.

I remember the army changing its aircrew coordination training all the time. Same concepts, new name, over and over. You're just taking old info, packaging it up nicely, and selling it.

[Jaybee]

I'm so lucky and glad I was able to take instruction from someone with over 30 years of instructing experience and 40 years of aviation experience. The one thing I think gets left out of these discussions and was my main take away from the FOI is that every learner is different. I did most of my training under Part 61 with the experienced instructor and it worked great. I went to a big school to do my Instrument training under 141 and it was brutal. It just did not work, for me. Blah, blah - what's this got to do with the topic...

 

"You're telling me that ADM, situational awareness, risk management, resource management, SBT are NEW concepts?"

 

...I couldn't agree more - I received all of these things in appropriate measure at the appropriate time.

 

PS - I don't know about ya'll, when I was training and doing maneuvers - I would ask - "what is the point of doing this?" aaaaaand I was taught why! (law of readiness anyone?) I'm not saying FITS SBT or whatever its called is not a good program, so please spare me the disparaging "you must not understand" remarks. I do believe though that in a rush to market, that some very simple things are being overlooked - such as, not limited to, law of readiness and every learner being different.

[RkyMtnHI]

Hey All,

 

Not sure if you wanted to hear from me Goldy, it’s pretty clear what our stance on this program is, but just in case, here ya go;

 

We were the first helicopter flight school in the Nation to go full curriculum FITS/SBT, and are still going strong with it... thanks for the good words about SBT Goldy, of course you are correct. There are also some other good comments that I agree with in this topic.. so don’t think I am slamming everyone else, I just want to clear some things up.

 

I will apologize up-front about my frankness or for being curt, I am extremely busy and don’t have the time to go over and over this to make it politically correct. If you know me, you know that I care about the industry and everyone trying to be professional and improve it. I’m not going to get into banter here, just want to back up Goldy and Mike. If anyone wants to visit us at CHO you will be blown away at how much Mike has done for us.. it will be clear that this isn’t a marketing ploy or something we just have on our web site. There have been many articles written about CHO and Mike’s involvement therewith. I do know that some schools say they work the program when they don’t, so I agree with bq on that one.

 

First and foremost I want to thank Mike Franz for putting so much into this. He approached me over five years ago and asked if we were interested in being involved with a new safety initiative that he was going to bring forward to the industry to try and give back, to try and save lives. If there’s one thing I can tell you it’s that Mike is not in this for the money. First off he doesn’t need it, second, he charges very little for his time to visit the schools he works with, and, if you consider all of the time & personal money he has volunteered to other good causes, like HeliSuccess, HeliExpo, USHST, HAI, etc, he’s surely in the red when it comes to time verses money. Also know that he’ll be pissed that I even got in the middle of this, if you knew him you would know he’s a very humble guy and probably cares too much about all of us.

 

This has been extremely frustrating to many of us due to the negative nancys and people that simply do not understand this program. I shake my head when I read stuff from people that have never been to one of Mikes classes/seminars, yet talk negative about them (the same goes for HeliSuccess). It is instantly clear to those that have been thru the program when someone posts that they understand the concepts when in fact they don’t. ie, the difference between FITS/SBT and scenario interjection. Or like Matt’s comment: “It works best after initial certification in my opinion. I think it should be done during commercial training, and obviously during cfi but certainly not every flight.”

 

FITS/SBT works from day one, when the new candidate walks in the door. Period. There is a learning curve, but after you get it, it really doesn’t take much more time to do it right. It adds things that should have been there in the first place.

 

 

Second, Mike has said since day one that this is not Mikeyisms, he didn’t make any of this up. He just took the time to sift thru the FAA’s stuff and other safety related information and put it in a digestible form. It is a bit complicated, but, if any of you would take the time to do some research, you wouldn’t be making comments that are clearly out of line. He has also said that you don’t need him, that you too could research FAA.gov and learn all of the information he puts out. I honestly believe that he would rather that happen, that people would just care as much as we do and get the info themselves… all he has ever wanted to do is save lives.

 

I have said this before, lately. There are some amazing people on this forum, with experience you can’t add up. Many have left due to the few that antagonize at every chance… it’s extremely disappointing to me and others.. I wonder what great information we are losing due to this. I used to tell every person that I met to come on here, sign up and learn… not so much anymore. I hope that the forums cycle back to the way it used to be.

 

I wonder how someone like Mike Franz can continue to give so much, try so hard to help our industry, when people that don’t have a clue slam his sincere efforts. I can’t imagine how hard what we do at CHO would be without being able to call him for help/input. I’ve told him for years that he should charge for that but he never does, and I imagine there are a lot of people in the industry that call him for help. (oh yeah, it doesn’t hurt that he has been a CFI for over 40 years and been to more than 25 factory courses).

 

I also see that most of the folks that are negative about any new program are the old guys. Mike knew the place to start would be at the flight schools.. with the new pilots in training. He knew that in order to save lives, we had to make better pilots with higher order thinking skills. It’s painfully clear that he was right about this. What is killing people?? Not stick skills, but poor decision-making. Everything on this planet is changing at an alarming rate now days, if you can’t keep up, you shouldn’t badmouth stuff until you know what you are talking about, that goes for everything, not just our industry. I remember five years ago all of my younger instructors were txting.. they said that I should try it. LOL, of course I said no I never would…. But I finally did and today I don’t know how I ever did without it.

 

If you can’t help but be negative and rude, please go to another forum and have at it, but leave this one as a place of learning and information. Consider that you might be doing more harm than good.. Can you imagine if IChris came on here one day and thought it wasn’t worth his time any more, or Goldy, or Mark or many, many others?

 

Try being positive for a few weeks and see if your life gets better.

 

Very sincerely,

 

dp

[Jaybee]

DP and Mike, just because someone has a differing opinion and doesn't agree doesn't mean they are slamming or are negative. You asked to not be negative and rude but to me in my eyes you are being very disrespectful and rude yourselves.

 

My favorite saying from Army training was "its not the way but a way" and what you are doing is nothing more than that - a way.

 

There is plenty of room in these discussions to acknowledge the salient points. As you said yourself, these methods have been gleaned from FAA material. While I appreciate Mike's experience in the matter it's not as if he is the only instructor in this business capable of gleaning material from the FAA and assembling in a logical meaningful way.

 

If someone doesn't necessarily agree with ya'll you label them negative and in turn slam them for having an opinion. Its ya'lls opinion that your system is the best, yet don't allow(ask people to leave) for others to have and share their opinion.

 

For a grown man Dp, you act(talk) pretty juvenile. In other words, you turn to attacking people instead of addressing the salient points, then threaten to take your ball and go home.

 

If you are happy with your system then just be happy with it. If you are the best then just be the best. In my life experience, the best never had to talk down to or about their competition and they don't get offended when someone asks questions about their service. In fact, in my experience the best is always more than happy to explain to you why their system is better in their eyes.

[Matt321]

Not rude, just realistic. I care deeply about this broken flight training industry and I get extremely pissed because I know so many newbies come to this site looking for info about schools. What they find are ads. Maybe your school has a great program, I've never been there so I don't know. I've read the fits SBT stuff the faa has published, I have not been taught by mike.

Look at what gets hits on this site and you can see the problem. How often are safety topics covered as opposed to time building? How many hits do the endless discussions on disymetry of lift get? I've thought about leaving this site recently, and I haven't really been on it long. Why? Because I feel like I'm fighting an uphill battle. You want to talk about human factors? Fine, start a thread and leave your school name out of it.

[Matt321]

Ok, maybe rude. I just re read my response to Mikemv and it is a bit rude. I'm sorry. Wont happen again. I stand by my opinions, if not my presentation of them.

[Jaybee]

Ok, maybe rude. I just re read my response to Mikemv and it is a bit rude. I'm sorry. Wont happen again. I stand by my opinions, if not my presentation of them.

 

For what its worth, not taking sides but I didn't find it rude. Could have been presented better ? Sure. Sounded like you were just speaking from the heart to me. Nothing wrong with that.

 

My two cents worth.

[Goldy]

First off DP I know how involved you have been in this...it's your whole life and I just didn't get it at first. When I asked Mike to come down a couple years ago and give a one hour overview of this program, I really just didn't get it. I thought, like some others here, that is was just the same old stuff we have heard for years. That's why I opened my first post with " I finally got it" ! I finally understood the program was not just elements, or teach this, or do a scenario or two, it was more like a revolution in learning, and in teaching. It was in fact, a whole new way to effectively digest what was going on and why, and in the end, building safer pilots in less time.

 

I finally got it.

 

We can all leave the name calling and stuff behind, Like DP said that's not what VR has ever been about. It's not one upping each other, it's learning from each other. We all have a lot to learn and I learn stuff every day. (most of which I forgot already). We also all have a lot we can give.

 

That said, I still would love to hear from the student perspective. Of course, if it's all you've ever been exposed to, it may be all you know.

 

And if you're really bad at reading between the lines, this post is so that I can gather some info for a story I hope to be writing on this.

 

As always,

 

Fly Safe

Goldy

[Pohi]

Call DP's school, there are apparently lots of students (maybe some who did both styles) there that can give you their perspective. Or email and ask Mike what other schools he has converted, contact them and interview those students.

 

That would probably be the most efficient use of your time instead of asking here.

[Jaybee]

 

We can all leave the name calling and stuff behind, Like DP said that's not what VR has ever been about.

 

As far as I can tell the only name calling was DP calling people Negative Nancies.... Mike edited his post sooo.... don't really remember if he really said anything bad other than calling people uneducated which really wasn't bad depending how you took it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I didn't think there was anything wrong with discussing the topic. In fact it is a great opportunity to discuss the positives and benefits. Again just because someone doesn't whole heartedly agree with something doesn't necessarily make them negative. Might make them "uneducated" but certainly not a reason to leave the site. I mean that would be the grown up equivalent of "taking your ball and going home". I would hope we have all out grown that....

[Jaybee]

For anyone really wanting to learn more about this -

 

FITS.pdf

FITS Volume1.pdf

FITS Volume2.pdf

FITS Volume3.pdf

 

All the information is readily available. When you read through the material is constantly refers to General Aviation. I do not doubt the concept is capable of transfer over to Commercial Operations. In fact to quote Vol 1 - "For many instructors, this will simply be business as usual". Which has been said here to vehement response.

 

[Goldy]

Call DP's school, there are apparently lots of students (maybe some who did both styles) there that can give you their perspective. Or email and ask Mike what other schools he has converted, contact them and interview those students.

 

That would probably be the most efficient use of your time instead of asking here.

Pohi, while I appreciate your post, I know both DP and Mike fairly well. I can call them anyday and get names and numbers. However, this forum allows me to reach out to potentially other students that I might not otherwise get to hear from.