Other pilots opinion of LE pilots

[Snowman]

Not sure about Apaches, but Evergreen has a large presence in Afghanistan. You should check out there web site http://www.evergreenaviation.com/emp/index.html. Good Luck!

[SuperPilot]

Thanks. I will look it up and see what I can find. I think Presidential Airways also works extensively over seas in conflict areas. If I can not get an Apache, maybe I can fly some fully armed Little Birds with rockets.....

[palmfish]

Thanks. I will look it up and see what I can find. I think Presidential Airways also works extensively over seas in conflict areas. If I can not get an Apache, maybe I can fly some fully armed Little Birds with rockets.....

 

With your ability to look outside of aviation paradigms in a logical and unbiased manner, I think you will be admired as one of the finest pilots in Afghanistan with minimal effort on your part.

[Lindsey]

I don’t want to waste my time learning to become an infantry officer or do all that silly marching around, standing inspections and sleeping in the barracks, etc.

I am sure a few familiarization flights in the Apache and I should be good to go. I mean I will have an Army officer as my gunner so I can rely on him to worry about the tactics and stuff and talking to the guys on the ground. I can learn all the military stuff as I go and after a while it will all make sense to me. I will be a much safer pilot because I won’t be all wrapped up with what is going on, on the ground and I can focus just on the flying. I won’t understand what the guy on the ground is going through or really needs from me because I have never been there or done that, but again, that is what my gunner is for. He can explain it all as we go.

 

Please tell me you aren't serious.

[EC120AV8R]

He isn't serious. I think he was just trying to demonstrate how "other" pilots minimize the path that LE pilots have to take to get where we are. "Other" pilots feel that since they are qualified pilots, they are qualified to work our mission. Aviation wise they might be, but there's a lot more to our organizational culture than just being able to fly. It's an extreme (and tongue-in-cheek) example, but I think it illustrates the point.

[Lindsey]

He isn't serious. I think he was just trying to demonstrate how "other" pilots minimize the path that LE pilots have to take to get where we are. "Other" pilots feel that since they are qualified pilots, they are qualified to work our mission. Aviation wise they wight be, but there's a lot more to our organizational culture than just being able to fly. It's an extreme (and tongue-in-cheek) example, but I think it illustrates the point.

 

Okay, good. I think my sarcasm meter must be broken. Apologies, superpilot, I've got a bit of a sharp temper...probably should have been a red-head.

[aclark79]

That argument is like saying that only infantry offices with 4-5 years combat experience will make good Army pilots, since only they know what the guys on the ground need.

 

Considering that's not even close to how the Army selects their pilots... well its a bogus argument.

 

The skills that are required to be a good pilot are trainable, even a good pilot in a police environment. There are agencies that have contract pilots and they do just fine don't they? Please correct me if I'm wrong, if the agencies with contract pilots actually don't do a good job for the officers on the ground I'd like to know.

[EC120AV8R]

Nope, the contract guys I know and others I have met do a fine job. Effective pilots, all. I really don't take issue with contract pilots at all. What I do take issue with is guys who want to get into a flying job other than being a CFI, and they whine about wanting to get into police flying, and then complain that they don't want to go to the academy and wait to fly. The simple answer to that is, find another flying job. My goal from the outset was to fly for the department. It took a while to get there, and I enjoyed every assignment I had prior to Air Support. It worked for me, and it's probably not for everyone.

 

I do know the guy that posted that (Superpilot). He is very experienced, and he was using an extreme and sarcastic example to say, if you want to be in police work, be in police work. Embrace the job and the organization. If you want to dabble in it, it is probably not for you. The opinion of "the guys on the ground", is that they would rather have "one of their own" covering their back, and not some guy who is not invested in them and their mission.

 

It's an organizational culture issue.

[palmfish]

That argument is like saying that only infantry offices with 4-5 years combat experience will make good Army pilots, since only they know what the guys on the ground need.

 

You don't need 4-5 years combat infantry experience to be a "good" Army aviator, but all else being equal, that officer would probably be a "better" Army aviator.

[SuperPilot]

Thanks EC120AV8R for having the insight into what was clearly (at least I thought so) a sarcastic post. I think you summed up my thoughts nicely!

[aclark79]

Nope, the contract guys I know and others I have met do a fine job. Effective pilots, all. I really don't take issue with contract pilots at all. What I do take issue with is guys who want to get into a flying job other than being a CFI, and they whine about wanting to get into police flying, and then complain that they don't want to go to the academy and wait to fly.

 

I do know the guy that posted that (Superpilot). He is very experienced, and he was using an extreme and sarcastic example to say, if you want to be in police work, be in police work. Embrace the job and the organization. If you want to dabble in it, it is probably not for you. The opinion of "the guys on the ground", is that they would rather have "one of their own" covering their back, and not some guy who is not invested in them and their mission.

 

It's an organizational culture issue.

 

Now that sounds like a much more honest reason than the usual "if you haven't walked the beat for 4 years your not capable of understanding what it takes to be a police pilot" bs.

 

I accepted a long time ago that if I wanted to be a police pilot then I'd better join a police department. I wasn't (and still am not) willing to stop flying for the years it would take to go from cadet to officer with enough time in to get into an aviation unit, plus take the chance that politics will keep me out of the aviation unit. I'd rather be a pilot than a police officer.

 

I don't get mad at any department that wants to keep the pilot position internal for reasons of culture, bonding, accountability, etc etc.... just don't tell me civilians can't do the same thing a police pilots are somehow better since they carry a badge and are able to make arrests.

[Lindsey]

Thanks EC120AV8R for having the insight into what was clearly (at least I thought so) a sarcastic post. I think you summed up my thoughts nicely!

 

Hahaha, yeah, sorry about that.

[Spike]

Now that sounds like a much more honest reason than the usual "if you haven't walked the beat for 4 years your not capable of understanding what it takes to be a police pilot" bs.

 

I accepted a long time ago that if I wanted to be a police pilot then I'd better join a police department. I wasn't (and still am not) willing to stop flying for the years it would take to go from cadet to officer with enough time in to get into an aviation unit, plus take the chance that politics will keep me out of the aviation unit. I'd rather be a pilot than a police officer.

 

I don't get mad at any department that wants to keep the pilot position internal for reasons of culture, bonding, accountability, etc etc.... just don't tell me civilians can't do the same thing a police pilots are somehow better since they carry a badge and are able to make arrests.

 

Your assessment is close to being spot-on and while you highlighted the “political” aspect, I’ll add this. As a sworn Officer, to qualify for a PIC seat, you cannot even begin to fathom the extent of the crap one must take in order to accomplish the goal. It’s bad, real bad. This may be the reason why we/they covet it so much. However, I know for a fact, quite a few of my brother’s take flying for granted. In fact, I had one pilot who worked for a major metropolitan California ASU tell me he could “take it or leave it” (about flying) and he only really did it for the increased pay. Truly pathetic……….

 

Additionally, I find it amusing how each side of this debate religiously sticks with “their” side of the argument. Especially when neither has experience with the other side. Hence my earlier attempt at sarcasm about giving expert advice with heli-logging (most sworn guys have never flown heli-logging so how could they give an opinion???? Sound familiar?).

 

IMO, neutrality is best when discussing the matter although when the engine quits who do want sitting next to you, an experienced cop or an experienced pilot?

 

BTW, our Department prefers to hire from the commercial sector (the more and varied experience you have the better chance of making first pool). Our positions are Officer/Pilot positions from the onset and are permanent assignments. Six months in the Academy, approximately 17 weeks field training on Patrol with an additional 4 months solo Patrol. From there, you’re reassigned to the ASU for the rest of your career. Contact me if you’re interested but re-read the second sentence in the first paragraph before you do….

 

See ya,

 

Spike

[EC120AV8R]

Now that sounds like a much more honest reason than the usual "if you haven't walked the beat for 4 years your not capable of understanding what it takes to be a police pilot" bs.

 

I accepted a long time ago that if I wanted to be a police pilot then I'd better join a police department. I wasn't (and still am not) willing to stop flying for the years it would take to go from cadet to officer with enough time in to get into an aviation unit, plus take the chance that politics will keep me out of the aviation unit. I'd rather be a pilot than a police officer.

 

I don't get mad at any department that wants to keep the pilot position internal for reasons of culture, bonding, accountability, etc etc.... just don't tell me civilians can't do the same thing a police pilots are somehow better since they carry a badge and are able to make arrests.

 

 

Clark,

 

It really does come down to an "us versus them" issue. Most* LE pilots clearly have respect for the contract guys. We are fellow aviators and there is always kinship with other aviators. That said the "brotherhood" or fraternal bond with other officers is much stronger.

 

Look no further than the recent tragedy in Washington. 20,000 fellow officers from across the US, and in fact from other countries, including Canada and the UK attended the funeral service. There is an unspoken bond among officers, we look out for our own.

 

When a pilot(s) dies in a crash, do they get that kind of outpouring from peers in the aviation community, whether they knew them or not? I've never seen it.

 

Do you think some contract guy will get much respect from the ground troops? Of course they appreciate the support from the air, but to the officers on the ground, the TFO is the guy with their interest at heart, the guy they know and have worked with. How much respect do you think a walk-in contract guy is going to get? How accepted do you think he will truly be? Can he truly become part of the organization, or always be a "generally accepted outsider"?

 

Any aviator worth his salt can be trained to do the LE mission. To me that's the core issue is will the organizational culture accept you?

[aclark79]

Any aviator worth his salt can be trained to do the LE mission. To me that's the core issue is will the organizational culture accept you?

 

I think that just about sums it up and as I said, a much more honest response.

[SuperPilot]

"when the engine quits who do want sitting next to you, an experienced cop or an experienced pilot?"

 

 

Here is the problem with your argument. You are opining that they are mutually exclusive. They are not. I have met plenty of experienced pilots who were cops. However I have met very few experienced contract pilots who had any experience being a cop.

 

What the "private sector"needs to accept is that there are very experienced, competent sworn LE pilots who have every bit as much skill to operate the aircraft as any private sector pilot. I know great LE pilots and I know mediocre LE pilots. Same with the private sector.

[Spike]

"when the engine quits who do want sitting next to you, an experienced cop or an experienced pilot?"

 

 

Here is the problem with your argument. You are opining that they are mutually exclusive. They are not. I have met plenty of experienced pilots who were cops. However I have met very few experienced contract pilots who had any experience being a cop.

 

What the "private sector"needs to accept is that there are very experienced, competent sworn LE pilots who have every bit as much skill to operate the aircraft as any private sector pilot. I know great LE pilots and I know mediocre LE pilots. Same with the private sector.

 

To the contrary, we cops are the mutually exclusive ones. Where else can you fly a turbine helicopter for a living with less than 300 hours?

 

Make no mistake, when the engine quits, NO ONE will care how much experience you have as an Officer. Furthermore, during an engine out sequence, skill is just a fraction of the total equation……

[EC120AV8R]

To the contrary, we cops are the mutually exclusive ones. Where else can you fly a turbine helicopter for a living with less than 300 hours?

 

Seriously? It's called the U.S. Army. You go from 0 time to flight school completion, never having set foot in a piston ship. Not to mention at 300 hours you can be transitioning into large multi-engine airframes. However, I suppose Army Aviators are inferior pilots, for never having flown an R-22 or 300/269 (pick your poison), and having had to work as a CFI in those same ships, all until they "pay their dues".

 

Again, it goes back to something I said in a waaaaaay earlier post...it always sounds like sour grapes, because we made better career choices and had better flying opportunities earlier (read with less time).

 

 

You are deluding yourself if you think only LE pilots are "mutually exclusive". I have seen plenty of high time private sector pilots look down their noses at lower time guys, as if they were mere pee-ons among gods. Pilots use their TT to play the "mine's bigger" game all the time. Problem is, that TT only tells half the story. You can be a one hour pilot 3,000 times, or a 3,000 hour pilot. Doesn't matter what sector you fly in. It all depends on your personal attitude, and how you approach your chosen career.

[palmfish]

Seriously? It's called the U.S. Army. You go from 0 time to flight school completion, never having set foot in a piston ship. Not to mention at 300 hours you can be transitioning into large multi-engine airframes. However, I suppose Army Aviators are inferior pilots, for never having flown an R-22 or 300/269 (pick your poison), and having had to work as a CFI in those same ships, all until they "pay their dues".

 

Again, it goes back to something I said in a waaaaaay earlier post...it always sounds like sour grapes, because we made better career choices and had better flying opportunities earlier (read with less time).

 

 

You are deluding yourself if you think only LE pilots are "mutually exclusive". I have seen plenty of high time private sector pilots look down their noses at lower time guys, as if they were mere pee-ons among gods. Pilots use their TT to play the "mine's bigger" game all the time. Problem is, that TT only tells half the story. You can be a one hour pilot 3,000 times, or a 3,000 hour pilot. Doesn't matter what sector you fly in. It all depends on your personal attitude, and how you approach your chosen career.

 

Actually, the Army and LE have more in common than just the relatively rapid path to turbine flying. Before anyone can become an Army aviator, they must complete, at a minimum, 5-6 months of non-aviation related indoctrination and training. In other words, Army aviators are soldiers first. Sound familiar?

 

One cannot serve as an Army aviator without the warrior ethos.

[Spike]

Seriously? It's called the U.S. Army. You go from 0 time to flight school completion, never having set foot in a piston ship. Not to mention at 300 hours you can be transitioning into large multi-engine airframes. However, I suppose Army Aviators are inferior pilots, for never having flown an R-22 or 300/269 (pick your poison), and having had to work as a CFI in those same ships, all until they "pay their dues".

 

Again, it goes back to something I said in a waaaaaay earlier post...it always sounds like sour grapes, because we made better career choices and had better flying opportunities earlier (read with less time).

 

 

You are deluding yourself if you think only LE pilots are "mutually exclusive". I have seen plenty of high time private sector pilots look down their noses at lower time guys, as if they were mere pee-ons among gods. Pilots use their TT to play the "mine's bigger" game all the time. Problem is, that TT only tells half the story. You can be a one hour pilot 3,000 times, or a 3,000 hour pilot. Doesn't matter what sector you fly in. It all depends on your personal attitude, and how you approach your chosen career.

 

 

AGAIN, no sour grapes here and I agree, total time has little relevance to this argument. My disclaimer, this opinion is based on my experienced as a civilian trained pilot, who paid his dues in the commercial sector, lucked out with a contract LE job and subsequently became a Sworn Officer and paid the dues there as well. You?

 

The realities in my world are just that, my realities.

 

Sure, as an Army Aviator you can go from zero to hero in a blink of an eye (by the way, your comment offended my former career Army CW4, SIP, IE with “Sand Box” time, partner who did start out in a TH55 piston aircraft and, he called you the “F” word…. ).

 

In all seriousness, Army aviators operate by Army regulations and fly Army missions. On the other hand, I do not have Army Aviators in Army equipment, routinely flying Army missions over my neighborhood. And, who says the Army method of operation is best? Do you not think if they could put experience aviators in the seat that they would? Why does the USCG only hire from the experienced pool of former Military aviators? The reality is, because they are the US Army (US Government) they DO NOT have an alternative.

 

Sure, if your LE unit does nothing more than take off from an airport, fly circles near by, and land at that same airport then some of the “Army” analogy applies. However, if your unit does not train and practice EP’s to the extent the Army does, then this analogy falls apart. Most LE Units I've seen do not. From what I've been told, the average Army Aviator spends the majority of his career training rather than in mission tempo. Normally, from what I've seen in the LE sector, it's the oppisite.

 

IMO, out here in the civilian/para-public sector, we do have alternatives. Then again, what do I know…………………

 

http://www.kcbs.com/topic/play_window.php?...audioId=4228091

 

Lastly one shouldn’t minimize the CFI experience without having actually done it. I mention the “engine quitting” scenario so often because when it happened to me, without a doubt my CFI experience IS what saved me, my passenger and the aircraft. Furthermore, one of my partners who also came from the commercial sector (Civi CFI) had a similar event. Afterwards he wrote about it, it’s called 17 seconds.

 

http://www.alea.org/public/airbeat/back_is...04/index.aspx#1

Edited December 20, 2009 by Spike

[EC120AV8R]

AGAIN, no sour grapes here and I agree, total time has little relevance to this argument. My disclaimer, this opinion is based on my experienced as a civilian trained pilot, who paid his dues in the commercial sector, lucked out with a contract LE job and subsequently became a Sworn Officer and paid the dues there as well. You?

 

The realities in my world are just that, my realities.

 

Sure, as an Army Aviator you can go from zero to hero in a blink of an eye (by the way, your comment offended my former career Army CW4, SIP, IE with “Sand Box” time, partner who did start out in a TH55 piston aircraft and, he called you the “F” word…. ).

 

In all seriousness, Army aviators operate by Army regulations and fly Army missions. On the other hand, I do not have Army Aviators in Army equipment, routinely flying Army missions over my neighborhood. And, who says the Army method of operation is best? Do you not think if they could put experience aviators in the seat that they would? Why does the USCG only hire from the experienced pool of former Military aviators? The reality is, because they are the US Army (US Government) they DO NOT have an alternative.

 

Sure, if your LE unit does nothing more than take off from an airport, fly circles near by, and land at that same airport then some of the “Army” analogy applies. However, if your unit does not train and practice EP’s to the extent the Army does, then this analogy falls apart. Most LE Units I've seen do not. From what I've been told, the average Army Aviator spends the majority of his career training rather than in mission tempo. Normally, from what I've seen in the LE sector, it's the oppisite.

 

IMO, out here in the civilian/para-public sector, we do have alternatives. Then again, what do I know…………………

 

http://www.kcbs.com/topic/play_window.php?...audioId=4228091

 

Lastly one shouldn’t minimize the CFI experience without having actually done it. I mention the “engine quitting” scenario so often because when it happened to me, without a doubt my CFI experience IS what saved me, my passenger and the aircraft. Furthermore, one of my partners who also came from the commercial sector (Civi CFI) had a similar event. Afterwards he wrote about it, it’s called 17 seconds.

 

http://www.alea.org/public/airbeat/back_is...04/index.aspx#1

 

 

No offense to your Army colleague. I was just trying to point out the Army is in fact another way to get in a turbine ship with less than 300 hours. Not that it is necessarily analogous to LE flying. In some aspects it is, others certainly not. I spent 8 years in the Army (not as an aviator), so nothing but love for the Army Aviators who "took us to work".

 

If it's the presentation I'm thinking about (EBRPP, right?), I have seen your other colleague's 17 Second presentation at ALEA (twice). Informative and well done.

 

I don't know about the units you have experienced, but we have a very aggressive training program. We won't let a new pilot act as line pilot until they have 500 hrs PIC, and have completed factory training and an in-house check ride. It is certainly less than what most have to do to get their first non-CFI job for sure. We do quarterly EP training, FTD autos every 6 mos. (night and day), plus Bambi bucket proficiency twice a year. We have some other various and sundry mission specific training we keep up on too, like swimmer deployment (in the spring, before the big beach crowds), NVG recurrency etc. When you break our schedule down, we end up doing some type of training almost every month. Probably less than some, bet I bet more than most.

 

Again, any pilot can be trained to do the LE mission. I will never argue against that point. I won't even argue that contract pilots don't have their place. I do love a good debate though.

[palmfish]

I am enjoying the curves and tangents that this discussion has taken!

 

One big difference between Army Aviation and the rest of the world is that, with the demise of the OH-58A/C in the 90's, there are no more single-pilot aircraft (National Guard RAID (law enforcement) being the only exception). I would estimate that perhaps 90% of current Active Duty Army Aviators have never flown an aircraft as the sole occupant.

 

I agree that, with proper training and experience, a contract pilot can be just as good at the mission as a sworn pilot. But I also believe that LE (and probably firefighting too) is one of the few aviation careers where intimate knowledge of "ground ops" is critical to success in the air. This is where LE aviation differs from ENG, Medevac, Offshore, Tours, etc.

 

I happen to believe that the "turbine vs. piston" and "military vs. civilian" track is moot - both can and do produce outstanding pilots and lemons. I think life is a big bell curve, and the rules of that curve apply to LE pilots as much as any other demographic.

 

The important thing for any LE Agency with a flying program is to find the best applicant and ensure they receive the best training possible. Whether that person is a 50 hour private pilot with 12 "sworn" years on the street or a 2000 hour contract pilot with no LE experience doesn't matter - so long as the training is tailored by the agency to ensure that person can fulfill the mission.

 

By the way, I wish I did half the training that you guys down in Irvine do. Of course, my mission is more narrowly focused than yours, so it only makes sense, but still...you do some awesome stuff.

 

Stay safe and have a Happy New Year!

[EC120AV8R]

I am enjoying the curves and tangents that this discussion has taken!

 

One big difference between Army Aviation and the rest of the world is that, with the demise of the OH-58A/C in the 90's, there are no more single-pilot aircraft (National Guard RAID (law enforcement) being the only exception). I would estimate that perhaps 90% of current Active Duty Army Aviators have never flown an aircraft as the sole occupant.

 

I agree that, with proper training and experience, a contract pilot can be just as good at the mission as a sworn pilot. But I also believe that LE (and probably firefighting too) is one of the few aviation careers where intimate knowledge of "ground ops" is critical to success in the air. This is where LE aviation differs from ENG, Medevac, Offshore, Tours, etc.

 

I happen to believe that the "turbine vs. piston" and "military vs. civilian" track is moot - both can and do produce outstanding pilots and lemons. I think life is a big bell curve, and the rules of that curve apply to LE pilots as much as any other demographic.

 

The important thing for any LE Agency with a flying program is to find the best applicant and ensure they receive the best training possible. Whether that person is a 50 hour private pilot with 12 "sworn" years on the street or a 2000 hour contract pilot with no LE experience doesn't matter - so long as the training is tailored by the agency to ensure that person can fulfill the mission.

 

By the way, I wish I did half the training that you guys down in Irvine do. Of course, my mission is more narrowly focused than yours, so it only makes sense, but still...you do some awesome stuff.

 

Stay safe and have a Happy New Year!

 

 

Thanks! When do you get to come back down to Helistream?

[palmfish]

I'll be back sometime in March for my annual EPs/touch-down auto recertification.

[Spike]

No offense to your Army colleague. I was just trying to point out the Army is in fact another way to get in a turbine ship with less than 300 hours. Not that it is necessarily analogous to LE flying. In some aspects it is, others certainly not. I spent 8 years in the Army (not as an aviator), so nothing but love for the Army Aviators who "took us to work".

 

If it's the presentation I'm thinking about (EBRPP, right?), I have seen your other colleague's 17 Second presentation at ALEA (twice). Informative and well done.

 

I don't know about the units you have experienced, but we have a very aggressive training program. We won't let a new pilot act as line pilot until they have 500 hrs PIC, and have completed factory training and an in-house check ride. It is certainly less than what most have to do to get their first non-CFI job for sure. We do quarterly EP training, FTD autos every 6 mos. (night and day), plus Bambi bucket proficiency twice a year. We have some other various and sundry mission specific training we keep up on too, like swimmer deployment (in the spring, before the big beach crowds), NVG recurrency etc. When you break our schedule down, we end up doing some type of training almost every month. Probably less than some, bet I bet more than most.

 

Again, any pilot can be trained to do the LE mission. I will never argue against that point. I won't even argue that contract pilots don't have their place. I do love a good debate though.

 

No offence taken as I was just joking with ya (about the “F” word). And because we’re slow this week, I’ll try to keep it going and maybe add a 5th page……………..

 

I didn’t want to sound like I’m picking on anyone or even appear to be “picking sides” to this debate. It’s just people shouldn’t discount or discredit one side or the other without having experienced it. As Capt. Sully said, experience matters.

 

Besides, my beef is really associated with the “LE culture” rather than any specific type of individual. Kind-of, don’t hate the player; hate the game, sort of thing. Specifically, how LE management and aviation management seldom agree and when they clash, LE management usually wins. This is totally bogus and I’m quite certain you know exactly what I’m talking about.

 

As far as training goes, we too are on a 6 month EP’s/FTD auto cycle. Day at the factory (AEC), and night at Helistream. And while this is “better-than-nothing”, I can say without a doubt we should be doing more (as far as EP training is concerned). And, I have to ask, bucket training every 6 months???? This is kind of what I was getting at in the above paragraph. We go with the Cal Fire standard of 2 hours every 60 days and all of our pilots and machines are “carded”. This way if, heaven forbid, something bad were to happen we can appropriately defend our policies and procedures and completely aviod any deliberate indifference accusations. In short, we attempt to do as much training as we can. Currently, in addition to the EP training mentioned above we also conduct; annual in-house “stan” rides, annual in-house PART133 external load check rides, Cal Fire/USFS carding (every 2 yrs), bucket currency (as stated), IFR currency, Vert-Ref/long-ling (ongoing training), NVG annual refresher, CFI refresher (every 2 yrs), Dunker/SWET (every 3 yrs) and are required to attend at least one safety seminar annually usually at an ALEA Conference or HAI HeliExpo. Yep, all this and I believe we need to do more……………

Be safe.

 

Spike