Instructor Responsibilities

[Mikemv]

Hi and "Happy New Year" to All,

 

After reading the thread about "Add On Ratings" and in particular the last few posts by RockyMountainPilot and Bossman, I thought that I would offer some thoughts and info for all to absorb or kick around as desired.

 

Comments were made about training times (minimum times to a check ride vs. extended flight training before a check ride) and all comments have there merits & justifications.

 

As CFI's we have a responsibility to produce safe pilots & competent pilots that meet Certificate Standards. We also have a Moral responsibility to protect the lives of our students and train them to protect their pax when they attain a Certificate.

 

Problems arise in that we have no control over the students, their finances, availability or extended proficiency. They want to get a rating with minimum costs to make it affordable. We want to give them the maximum amount of training and make them the best and safest pilots. We know that the various PTSs are designed by the FAA to "release" pilots to operate at a given standard of knowledge, proficiency, judgement and safety. As CFIs we ensure that these minimum standards are met but we want to give them so much more. So, we balance all of the elements of our students finances, availability and efforts to meet their goals and ours! And, yes, weather and maintenance and other factors are recognized as obstacles in the process.

 

I applaud all of you that work so hard to make a student a pilot at whatever level.

 

In 2010, I hope to visit various flight schools and hold Seminars for the CFIs and pilots to improve training techniques and produce a higher level of pilots operating in our industry for the future.

 

I will be at HAI and look forward to meeting any of you there for discussions or general talk about helo ops.

 

Best to All in 2010. CFIs keep up your efforts in producing Safe and Competent pilots, no matter what hour level of pilots trained.

 

MikeMV

mikefranz@embarqmail.com

[RockyMountainPilot]

I personally do not think that a flight instructor has any responsibility to work within a students finances. I think the student has the responsibility to work within their own finances. If a flight instructor or school starts to advertise that those with limited finances will get their ratings in fewer hours or even discounts, everyone will want the same treatment.

 

If a student comes to me, I say here is my training syllabus, it is non-negotiable. Here are my rates, they are non-negotiable. They can decide to train with me or not.

 

I am not affiliated with a school, so I only train people who own an aircraft. If they want to be cheap about their training, they probably want to be cheap about their maintenance, and I probably don't want to fly in their aircraft.

 

I doubt you will find too many instructors who don't complain about their pay. Most are making $35 -$45 an hour while flying, and over-working themselves to make ends meet and pay back the huge loans. A flight instructor should be making over $100 an hour. Heck, I pay $115 for a 45 minute private dance lesson! What is the worst thing that could happen if my dance instructor screws up? Most likely, get her toes stepped on. What is the worst thing that can happen if a flight instructor screws up? You die!

 

Here is some math to consider for all the aspiring instructors. Let's say you pay $300 an hour for a helicopter and $45 an hour for an instructor. You can expect that when you get your CFI and this company fires you, that you will make $45 an hour or less. Now lets says you pay $200 an hour for an instructor for a total of $500 an hour. You are now paying 45% more for your training. If you get paid $200 an hour when you get your CFI, you will be making 345% more over $45 an hour. You will be out of debt faster and have to work less for the same amount of money.

 

I know what you are thinking. Fewer people will take lessons right? Wrong! More people will take lessons, because they will view being a helicopter pilot as a viable way to make a living! And then every professional pilot will make more because you have essentially moved the scale up.

 

If you need $30K a year to live on because you have 4 roommates, or you live with the parents, and you fly 1,000 an hour making $45K, you have $15,000 to pay towards your debt. Paying $60K for training to pay it back over 10 years because of interest is poor math. Now let's say you make $200K and only need $30K to live on. And let's say the training is $100K because you are paying your instructor more. You just paid off all your debt in one year and you don't even need to have a roommate!

 

Of course, if you are like me, you will probably take many more years to pay off your debt because you value free time over money and end up working a lot less. Just FYI, I made a little over $65K last year and flew around 180 hours in 2009. I have more free time than any other pilot I know. Much more than when I flew EMS. And a much better schedule.

 

You might be thinking "How can I get a lone for $100K? I had a hard time getting one for $60K!" Well, that is because they know you will be making peanuts. If they know you have the potential to make $200K a year, then getting a loan for $100K would be much easier.

 

But all this is moot because the industry is too short sighted to see these benefits.

[Rick McWilliams]

My instructor is a mother hen type. He is always watching my flights, and offering comments. He is pleased that I am practicing often. I am flying Susie's little red R22. When she is aboard every mistake is noted.

 

We are working hard to improve our flight precision. I am struggling to hold the hover and landing point to 1 ft maximum error. Slope landings seem to be much easier, every landing zone is sloped, but, the slopes seem to have diminished.

 

I fly with an instructor every couple of weeks to avoid the accumulation of bad habits, or sloppy technique.

[gmsemel]

First off a Flight Instructor dose not have any moral responsibility for anybody other then him or her self and their dependents if any. Far to many CFI's live on food stamps, never mind about servicing debt. That is another issue all together. Just because a flight school bills 45 an hour for an instructor, dose not mean the instructor is going to see 45 an hour. More like 20 for the most part, independents that is what ever your market will bear. The only responsibility a CFI has is to prepare his student the best he can for the Check ride, what that Student dose afterwards is well the students responsibility. One of the things that has aways bothered me about training and students, not students per say but how that training is done. We take the youngest least experienced among us and make instructors out of them, for the most part it works well, teaching some one to fly is the best way to learn to fly yourself, we then pay them so poorly that, it becomes build as much time as possible as quickly as possible so I can go get a real job in the business. Not that Instructing is not a real job, it is and one of the hardest you will do in flying in either helicopters or airplanes. With out instructor pilots there is no flying and its considered to be something less than sweeping floors. Its a heck of a thing when you think about it for a while. Of course the young ones and the new to flying ones never think about how thankless most of it really is. And these days going into dam 6 figure debt to get the certificates and ratings needed almost make you what to just roll your eyes and shake your head.

[Mikemv]

Wow, I never expected some of these replies.

 

I did not mention discounts or rates for schools, ratings or instructor fees!!! I never said a CFI had to manage someones finances!

 

I meant that if a student approaches an instructor and says I have $xxx, can you tell me if it is enough to get --- Certificate? You should be able to approximate the costs to get a rating within your own standards of teaching and tell the student that approximate amount. If I want to get a Private Certificate and have $30,000 to spend, is this enough? That is all I have now, should I give it a try? You should be able to tell a student if your syllabus, your schools' syllabus, the FAA requirements and such can be covered in the amount that they have to spend! No discounts, short cuts away from your teaching programs but BOTH an honest answer and effort by a CFI if it will work. I do understand that students are of different learning abilities and some take longer and some less and the costs will vary as such.

 

We as PIC/CFI all have Moral responsibilities to protect our pax/students or otherwise during flights. Where did food stamps and debt service come into Moral responsiblity? Would you tell the FAA we do not have the Moral responsibility to safe guard our students/pax? Would you state that we do not have safety responsibilities in a court of law?

 

Looks like another thread taken way out of context and for a ride.

 

Be Safe, MikeMV

[r22butters]

The reason Flight Instructors, and us "Low-time" Pilots, get such little respect in the industry is simple, there are too many of us out there. If the industry actually needed us, it would treat us a whole lot better.

 

Looks like another thread taken way out of context and for a ride.

 

Its hard not to, a lot of us are tired of being de-valued. Maybe the industry should take a moral resposability to take better care of "we who are just trying to get in", instead of just taking our money, training us, and then saying "good luck".

Edited January 2, 2010 by r22butters

[Tom22]

I would not mind paying a flight instructor over 100 dollars an hour; however, I would expect depth and breadth of knowledge, more than a high school education, and a proven record for graduating students within a reasonable amount of time. In addition, no prima donnas!

[RockyMountainPilot]

I would not mind paying a flight instructor over 100 dollars an hour; however, I would expect depth and breadth of knowledge, more than a high school education, and a proven record for graduating students within a reasonable amount of time. In addition, no prima donnas!

 

Tom,

 

That first part is easy. But come on. No Prima Donnas? Now you are being unrealistic. LOL

 

Butters,

 

There are not too many flight instructors. There are too many flight instructors willing to accept poor pay. It used to be you needed 5000+ hours to get an EMS job. Now, some are hiring at the 135 minimums. This means there is a demand for pilots. The demand comes from the fact that the industry doesn't pay well. Therefore, people don't want to become pilots. The law of supply and demand doesn't work properly in aviation because most instructors will take any other job that comes along. If there was money in instructing, you would have more people remaining instructors. This would mean more job openings in other fields.

 

The low prices CFI's make create an artificial ceiling of available pilots because most people won't work for those rates. Instead of supply and demand being the major market factors, the barriers to entry take over that spot.

[bossman]

The barriers to entry are put there by the insurance companies and the courts. They dictate the hour requirements.

[rick1128]

One thing that we as flight instructors must NOT do is 'grind' our students. By that I mean require unnecessary training or requirements for the particular rating. When we do that we lose the moral high ground we should have as flight instructors.

[RockyMountainPilot]

The barriers to entry are put there by the insurance companies and the courts. They dictate the hour requirements.

 

 

The barriers to entry are poor wages and high cost of training. It makes financial sense to very few people. Only the people who put flying before money get into aviation. That artificially keeps the numbers of people training small, the demand for helicopter pilots high, and the wages low.

 

I know plenty of insurance companies that will let a CFI instruct at 150 hours and a 1200 pilot fly charter, so they do not impose any barriers to entry any longer. Courts never did.

[RockyMountainPilot]

One thing that we as flight instructors must NOT do is 'grind' our students. By that I mean require unnecessary training or requirements for the particular rating. When we do that we lose the moral high ground we should have as flight instructors.

 

There is nothing immoral about imposing additional requirements for a student to sign them off as long as they are made aware of them prior to beginning. I impose a lot of additional training beyond what is require by the FAR's.

 

And I never require unnecessary requirements, because that would be an oxymoron. LOL

[Miloe]

There is nothing immoral about imposing additional requirements for a student to sign them off as long as they are made aware of them prior to beginning. I impose a lot of additional training beyond what is require by the FAR's.

 

And I never require unnecessary requirements, because that would be an oxymoron. LOL

 

I'm thinking that what he means is that as a CFI, I shouldn't try and get a student to fly 10-20 extra hours for a rating just because I need the time/income.

[bossman]

The barriers to entry are poor wages and high cost of training. It makes financial sense to very few people. Only the people who put flying before money get into aviation. That artificially keeps the numbers of people training small, the demand for helicopter pilots high, and the wages low.

 

I know plenty of insurance companies that will let a CFI instruct at 150 hours and a 1200 pilot fly charter, so they do not impose any barriers to entry any longer. Courts never did.

I beg to differ. Liability is what drives the cost of helicopters. The cost of helicopters and insurance is what drives the cost of training. Look at the great disparity between the cost of helicopter insurance and fixed wing insurance, especially hull insurance. The wages are held down because of the accusition costs of helicopters. The companies cut where they can to offset the high payments to the finance companies and insurance companies. It is a catch 22. You can't cut the costs for the machine so you cut the instructor cost. I know that the 20 bucks you save on the instructor doesn't seem like much but it's like the old lady peeing in the ocean, "every little bit helps". As far as the courts go our legal system allows for the insurance companies to settle for large sums of money whether the owner or operator agrees or not. Just because it is more economical to settle than it is to pay the lawyers.

[ADRidge]

There is nothing immoral about imposing additional requirements for a student to sign them off as long as they are made aware of them prior to beginning. I impose a lot of additional training beyond what is require by the FAR's.

 

I fully agree with you, RMP. After I got my PPL, a friend of the family took me up. This guy is a dual-rated pilot with around 20 years experience, most in CBP. The man can FLY. He took me up for two hours in his little R-22 and told me "I'm going to teach you what you need to know to stay alive, nothing more."

 

The things I learned that day, my regular 300-hour wonder didn't even touch on until about two weeks before my commercial ride. I think that truly competent training should extend beyond the PTS, but that's just this pilot's opinion.

[RockyMountainPilot]

I beg to differ. Liability is what drives the cost of helicopters. The cost of helicopters and insurance is what drives the cost of training. Look at the great disparity between the cost of helicopter insurance and fixed wing insurance, especially hull insurance. The wages are held down because of the accusition costs of helicopters. The companies cut where they can to offset the high payments to the finance companies and insurance companies. It is a catch 22. You can't cut the costs for the machine so you cut the instructor cost. I know that the 20 bucks you save on the instructor doesn't seem like much but it's like the old lady peeing in the ocean, "every little bit helps". As far as the courts go our legal system allows for the insurance companies to settle for large sums of money whether the owner or operator agrees or not. Just because it is more economical to settle than it is to pay the lawyers.

 

As I mentioned before, the low salaries in the industry is a very short sighted technique. If instructors made $200 an hour, then more people would want to learn to fly helicopters. Look at the math I showed above. If someone can afford to buy a helicopter, then $200 for an instructor is nothing. Trust me on this, I know. So, the only people you might lose are the very few hobby pilots who want to get their rating for fun and can't afford to fly enough to stay proficient. This is probably a good thing. The loses are more than made up by the increase in students who want a high paying job.

[RockyMountainPilot]

I fully agree with you, RMP. After I got my PPL, a friend of the family took me up. This guy is a dual-rated pilot with around 20 years experience, most in CBP. The man can FLY. He took me up for two hours in his little R-22 and told me "I'm going to teach you what you need to know to stay alive, nothing more."

 

The things I learned that day, my regular 300-hour wonder didn't even touch on until about two weeks before my commercial ride. I think that truly competent training should extend beyond the PTS, but that's just this pilot's opinion.

 

 

"I'm going to teach you what you need to know to stay alive, nothing more."

 

I love this quote. I am guessing he didn't show you touch down autos, or other skill building maneuvers, right?

 

Low time instructors teach skill. High time instructors teach decision making.

[Tom22]

Is decision making a skill taught; or rather, is it a skill acquired through experience by constructing mental models?

[Inferno]

Thats a really great idea, should it ever come into fruition.... I would love to know how you would go about having that implemented across the industry though....

As I mentioned before, the low salaries in the industry is a very short sighted technique. If instructors made $200 an hour, then more people would want to learn to fly helicopters. Look at the math I showed above. If someone can afford to buy a helicopter, then $200 for an instructor is nothing. Trust me on this, I know. So, the only people you might lose are the very few hobby pilots who want to get their rating for fun and can't afford to fly enough to stay proficient. This is probably a good thing. The loses are more than made up by the increase in students who want a high paying job.

[RockyMountainPilot]

Is decision making a skill taught; or rather, is it a skill acquired through experience by constructing mental models?

 

The helicopter industry is pretty small. Does anyone know how many helicopter CFI's are in the US? How many flight schools? It might be possible if the schools all or most jump on board. You would have to make it disadvantageous to go to a school that did not keep instructor pay high. That would be harder.

 

It would need to be incremental. Maybe bump it up to 80 an hour by such a date, then 120 six months later, etc. etc. We need to start a helicopter instructor association. Anyone interested?

[ADRidge]

"I'm going to teach you what you need to know to stay alive, nothing more."

 

I love this quote. I am guessing he didn't show you touch down autos, or other skill building maneuvers, right?

 

Low time instructors teach skill. High time instructors teach decision making.

 

We flew for two hours, 90 mins of which were advanced autos... backwards, forwards, to the side... It was an eye-opener for a 70 hour noob who had only experienced straight-ins and 180's. It was really neat to learn exactly what you can make a helicopter do if you need it. The other half hour was just refining my decision making as far as confined areas and routes to fly to try and always have SOME kind of "out" if I needed it.

 

That two hours was more valuable than any ten hour block I've flown with a regular instructor.

 

edited to add: this was out in West Texas, over my family's ranch. The only time we touched down on a pad was when we landed

Edited January 3, 2010 by ADRidge

[Inferno]

That thar sounds like "union talk" to me

 

IF someone makes it happen, I'll join. It does seem like there is a consistent treatment of helicopter pilots as blue collar workers, not skilled labor. Hell, I've hear pilots referred to as monkeys. "give 'em a banana, and tell em what to do".... It was more of a joke referring to test pilots, but still telling....

The helicopter industry is pretty small. Does anyone know how many helicopter CFI's are in the US? How many flight schools? It might be possible if the schools all or most jump on board. You would have to make it disadvantageous to go to a school that did not keep instructor pay high. That would be harder.

 

It would need to be incremental. Maybe bump it up to 80 an hour by such a date, then 120 six months later, etc. etc. We need to start a helicopter instructor association. Anyone interested?

[bossman]

As I mentioned before, the low salaries in the industry is a very short sighted technique. If instructors made $200 an hour, then more people would want to learn to fly helicopters. Look at the math I showed above. If someone can afford to buy a helicopter, then $200 for an instructor is nothing. Trust me on this, I know. So, the only people you might lose are the very few hobby pilots who want to get their rating for fun and can't afford to fly enough to stay proficient. This is probably a good thing. The loses are more than made up by the increase in students who want a high paying job.

I do not think I like your attitude toward the "hobby" pilot as you call them. It sounds like you think there should only be the so called "professional" pilots in the air. The "hobby" pilots are not the very few, they make up around 30% of the pilots out there. You can hold a commercial license and still fall into your "hobby" category. How many hours a year would qualify a person to be taken out of your "hobby" category? The "hobby" category is made up of the most enthusiastic, the most dedicated, the most passionate, and the most people that truly love the experience of flying. The fixed wing side has a lot more than 30% "hobby" pilots in their ranks. The "hobby" people are what makes general aviation. From the sound of your stance you would not care if general aviation went away. Get all those "hobby" pilots out of the air so the (so called) "professional" pilots will have more room to fly. Using your quote "trust me on this" I'd rather have a group of "hobby" pilots hanging out around the hangar and the airport, than any group of so called "professionals" snubbing their noses at the low time guys.

By the way, being able to afford the price of a helicopter has nothing to do with the passion for flying. If you have the desire and no money, come see me, I'll make sure you get a flight. Your math does not work if you bring the cost of a helicopter down to what it actually cost to manufacture. "Trust me on this" I operate a 145 repair station for fixed wing and helicopter, the components making up these machines do not cost that much to manufacture, it's the liability insurance that drives up the cost. Just my opinion.

[RockyMountainPilot]

I do not think I like your attitude toward the "hobby" pilot as you call them. It sounds like you think there should only be the so called "professional" pilots in the air. The "hobby" pilots are not the very few, they make up around 30% of the pilots out there. You can hold a commercial license and still fall into your "hobby" category. How many hours a year would qualify a person to be taken out of your "hobby" category? The "hobby" category is made up of the most enthusiastic, the most dedicated, the most passionate, and the most people that truly love the experience of flying. The fixed wing side has a lot more than 30% "hobby" pilots in their ranks. The "hobby" people are what makes general aviation. From the sound of your stance you would not care if general aviation went away. Get all those "hobby" pilots out of the air so the (so called) "professional" pilots will have more room to fly. Using your quote "trust me on this" I'd rather have a group of "hobby" pilots hanging out around the hangar and the airport, than any group of so called "professionals" snubbing their noses at the low time guys.

By the way, being able to afford the price of a helicopter has nothing to do with the passion for flying. If you have the desire and no money, come see me, I'll make sure you get a flight. Your math does not work if you bring the cost of a helicopter down to what it actually cost to manufacture. "Trust me on this" I operate a 145 repair station for fixed wing and helicopter, the components making up these machines do not cost that much to manufacture, it's the liability insurance that drives up the cost. Just my opinion.

 

Actually, it is the certification costs, liability costs, low volume, and high demand. Everything has liability costs built into the product. Liability costs in aviation are not as great as you would make it out to be. Liability insurance is pretty cheap on airplanes, and when I had my FBO, it was cheaper than my car mechanics liability insurance is you compared gross receipts. About 1/4 as much. He was charging $95 an hour, I was charging $65 an hour. Since then, it seems most auto mechanics charge in the $135 range and most aircraft shops are in the $85 range around here. If I recall correctly, my liability insurance was less than 2% of gross receipts.

 

The high cost of most aircraft parts is mostly because people are willing to pay them. Last I heard, Robinson still had no problem selling every aircraft they could make. Might be different in this economy though.

 

As for "hobby pilots who want to get their rating for fun and can't afford to fly enough to stay proficient". I will turn people away who can't afford to fly enough to stay proficient, because I don't want them to get killed, nor do I want them to kill others. If you are so worried about liability, then maybe you should start thinking about how to keep people from crashing. Pilots who can't stay proficient would be a good start.

[bossman]

RMP, I would never turn anyone away that wanted to fly. With or without money. There are different levels of proficiency. It requires more to fly into and out of a busy airport than it does to go around the patch at a uncontrolled airport. It requires more to fly in nasty weather. It requires more to fly at night. Each pilot has to think about his or her own abilities. If a person that we have trained shows up and wants to fly after being away for awhile, we send one of our instructors out with them for a couple hours. If it is a rated pilot that wants to rent one of our helicopters, our insurance requires that they fly for at least 10 hours with us before being turned loose solo. I never said I was concerned about liability, I said that the cost of liability is what drives the cost of parts and helicopters. The certification process is a part of the liability. The cost of hull insurance is the product of the cost of replacement. The cost of replacement is the result of liability. I do not think that anyone likes the high cost of aircraft parts. I do not think the word "willing" is a good word, I think "forced" would be a better term. As far as keeping people from crashing goes, I think that EMS had the worst record in the last year. If I'm not mistaken, they are considered very proficient pilots. All in all, it's probably circumstances and planning that accounts for most crashes.