vicinity of the airport

[crashed_05]

In regards to Part 91.103, what does the FAA consider to be "in the vicinity of an airport"? Is it the traffic pattern?..within 25nm?... I'm not trying to scam out of preflight preparation; just curious if it is written somewhere or is another gray area.

[helistar]

you would still be required to perform the preflight no different then if departing controlled airspace... departing the farm or a remote job site is considered a flight not originating in the vicinity of an airport...

 

Sec. 91.103

Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. This information must include--

(a) For a flight under IFR or a flight not in the vicinity of an airport, weather reports and forecasts, fuel requirements, alternatives available if the planned flight cannot be completed, and any known traffic delays of which the pilot in command has been advised by ATC;

( For any flight, runway lengths at airports of intended use, and the following takeoff and landing distance information:

(1) For civil aircraft for which an approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual containing takeoff and landing distance data is required, the takeoff and landing distance data contained therein; and

(2) For civil aircraft other than those specified in paragraph ((1) of this section, other reliable information appropriate to the aircraft, relating to aircraft performance under expected values of airport elevation and runway slope, aircraft gross weight, and wind and temperature.

[crashed_05]

Right, the first sentence in there is the FAA's fail-safe. But why in paragraph "a" does it specificly say "for a flight under IFR or a flight not in the vicinity of an airport" for the weather, and fuel requirements? How far do I need to be before the FAA would consider me "not in the vicinity of an airport"?

I know this is a petty topic, but I'm just curious.

[helistar]

1st.... the bottom line is a preflight is required without exception and there's no excuses for not completing one...

 

2nd... I'd suggest learning what each type of airspace is and what's located any where near where you want to fly... in doing so you'll have a better understanding of your local operating area and the requirements need to conduct safe operations in and around that area... also by learning this information you'll learn the answer your question...

[crashed_05]

I don't think you understand my question. Does anyone else see what I'm trying to get out of this?

[helistar]

probably not... but if you try and explain it better, I might be able to help find the answer since my uncle's a controller in socal

[Gomer Pylot]

10 miles, IIRC.

[crashed_05]

10 miles, IIRC.

Have a reference?

[kodoz]

I don't think you understand my question. Does anyone else see what I'm trying to get out of this?

 

Sort of. In the FAR/AIM, you get different senses of what "in the vicinity of the airport" might mean, but not sure that it says anywhere that you are in the vicinity if you stay in the pattern, if you stay in the airspace, or if you are within 4nm of the airspace. That phrase is used again in 91.126 and 91.127, but don't expect it to be explained to your satisfaction there either.

 

So where are you going with this? I'd be more interested in what the practical definition of "in the vicinity of an airport" is? Should you look at fuel, weather, and a sectional if you're leaving the pattern to go 10 miles to a practice area? Does that change if the weather is CAVU vs less than CAVU?

[helistar]

I think practical definition of "in the vicinity of an airport" is 3 miles... however I would think it depends on the type of airspace A' B" C' D' E' G'

 

Here's an example and why it's not spelled out in generic terms... it's based on type of airspace...

 

Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.

 

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.

( Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace--

(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and

[(2) Each pilot of a helicopter or a powered parachute must avoid the flow of fixed-wing aircraft.]

© Flap settings. Except when necessary for training or certification, the pilot in command of a civil turbojet-powered aircraft must use, as a final flap setting, the minimum certificated landing flap setting set forth in the approved performance information in the Airplane Flight Manual for the applicable conditions. However, each pilot in command has the final authority and responsibility for the safe operation of the pilot's airplane, and may use a different flap setting for that airplane if the pilot determines that it is necessary in the interest of safety.

(d) Communications with control towers. Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft to, from, through, or on an airport having an operational control tower unless two-way radio communications are maintained between that aircraft and the control tower. Communications must be established prior to 4 nautical miles from the airport, up to and including 2,500 feet AGL. However, if the aircraft radio fails in flight, the pilot in command may operate that aircraft and land if weather conditions are at or above basic VFR weather minimums, visual contact with the tower is maintained, and a clearance to land is received. If the aircraft radio fails while in flight under IFR, the pilot must comply with Sec. 91.185.

[crashed_05]

Sort of. In the FAR/AIM, you get different senses of what "in the vicinity of the airport" might mean, but not sure that it says anywhere that you are in the vicinity if you stay in the pattern, if you stay in the airspace, or if you are within 4nm of the airspace. That phrase is used again in 91.126 and 91.127, but don't expect it to be explained to your satisfaction there either.

 

So where are you going with this? I'd be more interested in what the practical definition of "in the vicinity of an airport" is? Should you look at fuel, weather, and a sectional if you're leaving the pattern to go 10 miles to a practice area? Does that change if the weather is CAVU vs less than CAVU?

yeah, I'm looking for what the definition of "in the vicinity of an airport" is. Maybe there is not an exact answer. Just thought it might be defined somewhere.

[kodoz]

yeah, I'm looking for what the definition of "in the vicinity of an airport" is. Maybe there is not an exact answer. Just thought it might be defined somewhere.

 

I don't think it is spelled out anywhere.

 

From a practical standpoint, I think it varies with what you can see and where you are. When it comes to fuel, I always know what I'm carrying, even if I don't plan on leaving the pattern. For weather, I bet there are some places where you can fly 100 nm and always be within the vicinity of an airport the whole time, but you'd still want to do a full pre-flight briefing. Even for short flights, I have a pretty low threshold for weather: I always look at least at local METARs, unless it's severe clear for the region. Technically, you should probably be looking at NOTAMS and TFRs before every flight, even if you are staying in the pattern, right?

[crashed_05]

Agreed

[Goldy]

yeah, I'm looking for what the definition of "in the vicinity of an airport" is. Maybe there is not an exact answer. Just thought it might be defined somewhere.

 

Its not. Its like many of the somewhat vague verbage found in FAR's.

 

Basically there isnt a specified definition. If you are within the airport airspace then I could argue you are within vicinity of an airport. There may be some case law that would better define it, but not in the FAR's.

 

The only real difference is you would not have to know runway lengths or conditions if you are not flying "in the vicinity" of an airport. All the other preflight knowledge is still required.

 

Gomer has been doing this awhile, I wonder what he is referring to with his thought of 10 miles...case law? NTSB?

 

I love the feds.

 

Goldy

Edited March 17, 2010 by Goldy

[helistar]

I just got off the phone with my uncle who's a controller and he said it really depends on where your located whether your considered within "in the vicinity of an airport"... it could be anywhere from within 3 miles or more from an airport and is determined by the type of airspace designated for the area... he said it's not uncommon to get calls from some guy sitting on a private airstrip or helicopter on a plot of dirt that's in the vicinity of an airport... He said they also get radio calls from places where they didn't even know people could land that's outside the vicinity of an airport requesting wx or to file an enroute IFR for after departure, because they are departing a private airstrip that doesn't have an established departure...

 

hope this helps...

[Gomer Pylot]

In the United States, "vicinity" is defined as an area (a donut) between circles with radii of 5 and 10 statute miles from the center of the runway complex of an airport. Refer to Section 7.2.6.a for more information regarding vicinity.

This is from the NOAA site, specifically for terminal forecasts. Whether it applies to 91.103 is debatable. Edited March 17, 2010 by Gomer Pylot

[crashed_05]

Thanks Gomer. Thats the best response I've seen yet.

[helistar]

this is just a basic way of saying you need to know the different types of airspace A' B" C' D' E' G' your operating around because the term "vicinity" will be different for each type, which results in the lack of ability to provide a single given mileage to your original question...

 

 

This is from the NOAA site, specifically for terminal forecasts. Whether it applies to 91.103 is debatable.

[ADRidge]

I think as far as the FAA is concerned, "vicinity" is 1 nm further out than you were when they decided to bust you.

[crashed_05]

I think as far as the FAA is concerned, "vicinity" is 1 nm further out than you were when they decided to bust you.

 

OK, Gomer, I retract my previous statement. ADRidge, this is the best response I've heard yet. lol

 

But seriously, that was a good answer.

[JDHelicopterPilot]

I could try to get you an answer. I'll let you know.

 

Also, you can submit your question the FSDO. It may take a while to get the answer but it will after that, be the FAAs interpetation. As always, should a specific FAR not relate to "your" mishap, incident or "violation", then then shall nail you on......... take a guess.....

 

 

JD

[JDHelicopterPilot]

I sent a e-mail to my Safety Team Manager in hopes to get a more clear answer. I suspect though it will always remain a "grey area" as our favorite book is filled with them.

 

JD

[JDHelicopterPilot]

Alright, got you an answer.

 

"Hello Jason, well! how about asking an easy questiion....(:-). regarding 91.103. In any event, here goes. There is no clear cut definition regarding "in the vicinity of an airport. However, in order to understand what is meant, you have to look at 61.93 (a) (1) (1) to define 25 miles. It is the only reference. As a student in training that is a requirement. Therefore, in pilot preflight planning, it is also a requirement. 61.93 (e) 3 is a part meaning in the "in the vicinity of an airport" to conduct a safe flight. So in reading both 91.103 and 61.93 you see how one regulation supports the other."

 

What are your thoughts? This is from Mr. Salina of the LAS FSDO/Safety Team Manager.

 

 

JD

[crashed_05]

Thanks JD. I appreciate your effort. Your answer pertains to solo cross country requirements, gomer's pertains to weather, and they both make sense. I'm just going to leave this subjuct alone now and accept that it is somewhat of a grey area. But I now have a new one I'm pondering about. Distances are always measured in nautical miles, right? (with the exception of visibility, which is statute) Airspace is measured in nm, you do flight planning in nm, your reference to 61.93 referred to nm. Why in 119.1(e) do they use statute miles?