Advanced autorotation entries

[Little Red 22]

So far all my training in auto entries has been initiated from straight-and-level flight. I fly an R22 most of the time, so I understand the risks from the instruction point of view, but the engine may decide to quit when not flying straight-and-level. Is there any major difference? Am I missing a critical piece of training that is not presented that could protect me?

 

I've done the RHC Safety Course and have over 300 hrs in helicopters.

 

Thanks.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Little Red 22

[aeroscout]

Are you specifically talking about out of a climb or descent ? Or are you specifying a level turn, or some combination ?

[Little Red 22]

I've done entries from non-turning descents and those are easy. My 180 autos have been entered from level flight, but not while in the turn or pulling Gs. My question is about entries while maneuvering. I've had to do some agressive maneuvering to avoid birds, and RC models, and I like doing steep turns. I haven't done any auto entries from level steep turns, climbing turns, or descending turns. Making turns once the auto is established is no issue, just wondering about the entry phase.

 

I am "presuming" there is no difference, but that is not the same as practical experience.

 

Susie

Edited October 21, 2013 by Little Red 22

[McGavin]

No offense, but 300 hours in an R22 is not a lot of experience. Are you or your instructors capable to perform advanced autorotations safely? I know I was not when I had your experience and not all CFIs are created equal. Not to mention the R22 is not a high performance aircraft and is the most difficult helicopter to autorotate that I have flown. No school wants to overspeed or ball up a training helicopter because they pushed it beyond the pilot or aircraft limitations.

 

I have not been to the RHC Safety Course, but I have never been really impressed with any factory school I have attended. A previous thread made comment that a Saftey Course student didn't even perform full touch down autos. Opportunity to perform these type of manuvers will come in time. You will eventually train under more advanced CFIs in more advanced aircraft where you can really start pushing the limitations.

 

I have been lucky enough to perform OGE hovering autos, departure autos, chops from an orbit to a 270, making a spot directly below and extending glides. All great experiences, but the basics are allways the same. Lower the collective, pick a spot, 65 knts, flair, pull collective. I'm obviously simplifying it, but if you get that right, you have a good chance of walking away no matter what f'ed up flight attitude you happen to be in when your engine quits.

[Wally]

So far all my training in auto entries has been initiated from straight-and-level flight. I fly an R22 most of the time, so I understand the risks from the instruction point of view, but the engine may decide to quit when not flying straight-and-level. Is there any major difference? Am I missing a critical piece of training that is not presented that could protect me?

 

I've done the RHC Safety Course and have over 300 hrs in helicopters.

 

Thanks.

 

Never touched a Robinson.

 

The issues between the real world power failure and training:

 

Configuration- speed and power. Lots of (most, if not all) training is at 'traffic pattern speed and power', less than max performance settings. Max continuous cruise might be almost half again as fast, more disk nose down and more power applied. Which means a big transition to auto airspeed and attitude. Significant power applied and little airspeed or altitude is a whole 'nother problem.

 

Expectation- Instructor on board equals a forced landing at some point, whereas the real thing will probably be totally unexpected and at the worst moment.

 

I can feel or see the instructor on the throttle, it's hard to absolutely surprise me with a power chop. I bet lots of people can say the same...

[pilot#476398]

There has really only been one time when I was caught COMPLETELY by surprise by a throttle chop. It was the end of a training flight in the 22. Thinking the flight was over and feeling very relaxed because of that, I had just moved it over our parking spot at about a 4ft hover when suddenly he chopped it! We spun just over 90 degrees left just before hitting the ground!

 

Fun times!

 

Entering an auto while in a steep bank, or on a takeoff climb? Maybe I'll suggest those during my BFR in a few months when he asks, "Anything else you want to work on?"

[Little Red 22]

Yes, 300 hours in the R22 is not much autorotation experience. It is a lot of instruction and very fun putt-putting around. I've had great training so far, and have full respect for the R22. I've also had the opportunity to fly with some of the best instructors, and it's pretty amazing what the little R22 can do in the hands of a master. My RHC Safety Course instructor was excellent.

 

My current training goal is to safely transition from instructor supervised autos to solo autos, and work on getting my CFI. I recognize there are voids in my experience, mostly due to the training environment, and am trying to expand my knowledge with regard to auto entries from real world conditions. For example, I've already been warned by several pilots that solo autos for light weight pilots are pretty exciting the first time due to the low rotor RPM. Just wondering what other surprises are out there with regard to maneuvering.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Little Red 22

[pilot#476398]

Never heard of a school doing solo autos! Not sure if I'm jealous or not?

[aeroscout]

It's very easy to get into a jam that you can't get out of when you are inexperienced, and insist on trying new (to you) maneuvers for the first time by yourself.

[Little Red 22]

That's why they have test pilots!

[aeroscout]

A good rule of thumb for low time pilots is, don't do it if you haven't done it.

[Mikemv]

Never heard of a school doing solo autos! Not sure if I'm jealous or not?

 

Schools do not do solo autos!

 

Suzie owns her R22.

 

Our IHST/USHST statistics show autos as the primary training accident area!

 

I recommend training in autos to proficiency/currency in a normal training environment and then dual with an current & experienced CFI in this procedure:

 

http://www.ihst.org/portals/54/QR4.pdf

 

USHST, FAA, NTSB are all addressing the lack of PFL training from various normal flight modes and in particular high speed cruise (relative to airframe capabilities - near VNE).

 

I promised Pete Gillies to bring forward his "Cyclic Back" -necessary procedure as part of any and all entries. Collective full down is not a totally acceptable entry procedure.

 

Suzie, get a qualified CFI, talk with Tim Tucker about how you should proceed. Read AC 61-140.

 

E-mail me if you need more input. Regards to hubby.

 

Mike

[Little Red 22]

Thanks Mike! Good info. Would love to fly with Tim Tucker too.

 

Do you think simulators are useful with regard to advanced autorotation maneuvers?

[Mikemv]

Thanks Mike! Good info. Would love to fly with Tim Tucker too.

 

Do you think simulators are useful with regard to advanced autorotation maneuvers?

 

Suzie,

 

Yes Sims can be effective in many auto training elements.

 

In July, I was with a group of CFI/Facilitators on a Frasca True Flight showing them various maneuvers that can be trained in a safe environment. We went thru engine failure during take off (100', 300') and at level off at 500'. We also went thru zero airspeed engine failures at various altitudes outside of the H/V alt. segment. Some of this was at high altitudes. Then we went on to high speed cruise (near Vne) at different gross weights, and more.

 

One exercise I put them thru was having them tune the radio (hand off collective) and having an engine failure and demonstrating how "Aft Cyclic" preserves or builds rotor RPM until the collective can be slammed down. Building this "Aft Cyclic" habit is essential for pilots and CFIs training pilots!

 

One thing we noted was to set the helo weight well above gross weight to get the Sim to give a true RRPM representation.

 

Tim is a busy man but you may be able to corner him for a discussion of auto training at a PHPA event.

 

Mike

[rubidug]

 

One exercise I put them thru was having them tune the radio (hand off collective) and having an engine failure and demonstrating how "Aft Cyclic" preserves or builds rotor RPM until the collective can be slammed down. Building this "Aft Cyclic" habit is essential for pilots and CFIs training pilots!

 

 

 

Mike,

When this was demonstrated to me in while flying, I was amazed at how fast the RRPM drops off!

Is there a way you could demonstrate this on video?

[Flying Pig]

The aft cyclic response at the first sign of any "hiccup" is a great muscle memory trait to have. I've never had an engine failure but I've had chip lights and a rotor RPM needle go to zero. Each time I pulled aft cyclic with out even thinking about it. Nothing extreme, just enough while I evaluated that I was still flying and making power.

[Mikemv]

 

Mike,

When this was demonstrated to me in while flying, I was amazed at how fast the RRPM drops off!

Is there a way you could demonstrate this on video?

 

Rub,

 

Maybe you could get Pete or Bob to do this while you are flying? GoPro cam or such.

 

I am off to Las Vegas to train CFIs this week + FAASTeam + Heli Success.

 

Best way is for pilots in training to get their experienced and well trained CFIs to do autos from altitude and monitor/learn about RPM movements. Power recovery should be made at altitude.

 

Mike

[rubidug]

Mike~

Thats exactly what I did! But, the gauges are too hard to read from the back window (GoPro).

I dont know how to mount the camera so that it will get the gauges but not get in the way of our view. I could just hold it there, but it would be very unsteady, especially considering it will be pretty 'rocky' in the heli at that time. I would need two cameras most likely, one on the gauges. and one from the back showing control inputs and aircraft attitude (outside).

 

I was thinking it might be easier to do it on a sim, hence the question. There might even be a way to have the sim show the gauges separately, or record them separately (digitally)? I dont have enough sim experience to say...

 

Doug

[rubidug]

Suzie..

Sorry, I didn't mean to hijak your thread!

I too have wondered why auto's are always started in S+L during training. I guess the answer is that RRPM drops off or speeds up too quickly during a maneuver, so its too dangerous to do in a training situation??

Doug

[pilot#476398]

Mike~

Thats exactly what I did! But, the gauges are too hard to read from the back window (GoPro).

I dont know how to mount the camera so that it will get the gauges but not get in the way of our view. I could just hold it there, but it would be very unsteady, especially considering it will be pretty 'rocky' in the heli at that time. I would need two cameras most likely, one on the gauges. and one from the back showing control inputs and aircraft attitude (outside).

 

I was thinking it might be easier to do it on a sim, hence the question. There might even be a way to have the sim show the gauges separately, or record them separately (digitally)? I dont have enough sim experience to say...

 

Doug

 

I've never used a gopro but I've been to their website. Have you tried the "chesty" chest mount?

[rubidug]

I have not tried it. But, I think it would be hard to stay still for the auto....enough to get a good shot of the RRPM gauge doing its thing....

[Little Red 22]

We've mounted a GoPro to the pax side skylight using the suction cup. It vibrates more in that location but is less irritating than on your head. The head strap produces good video of autos because it captures the pilot's head motion, so it spots the gages nicely.

 

I have a book I like, 21st Century Flight Training, which is the only one I have found that addresses integrating sensory stimuli during training to develop proper flight control coordination and stall recognition. It focuses on fixed wing training, but could be applied to autorotation training.

[Goldy]

Suzie..

Sorry, I didn't mean to hijak your thread!

I too have wondered why auto's are always started in S+L during training. I guess the answer is that RRPM drops off or speeds up too quickly during a maneuver, so its too dangerous to do in a training situation??

Doug

Auto's should be taught in S-L conditions during training....the problem is we never graduate from that to more advanced auto's like we should. So you can get all the way to CFII and do what... ONE full down auto? with all your entries from a S-L attitude.

 

I particularly like zero airspeed auto's, it teaches you just how manueverable the ship is...and with cyclic back instruction (more on that in a few weeks for the So Cal folks)......you're preserving rotor RPM and losing airspeed...so learning how to then recover airspeed is important. (Robbie factoid...in an auto there is no risk of low G...hence you can nose that bad boy over pretty damn hard...like vertical!)

 

Lil Red 22 has one of the best CFI's avail to her (Ken Obi).......so I think it's time to go play some more! Doing practice auto's during high power settings is downright dangerous...not that you can't safely practice them, but get some altitude first and climb up from there.....and rely on someone like Ken or Simon who have 10,000 plus hours teaching in the Robbie to do it with.

 

As far as solo auto's....once your comfy doing them, if you can't generate enough rotor RPM, just crank up the throttle and you can adjust the pitch links on the MRB until they are to your liking (within acceptable ranges of course).

 

Goldy

[ridethisbike]

I was given a simulated engine failure while orbiting our designated "get ATIS, come home" point towards the end of my private training... so I was in a turn... It was interesting... Completely manageable, but interesting