Where are we defining conditions as VMC/IMC

[WolftalonID]

Hey peeps, I have come to the frustration point in study. I am diving back into the books after a few months break to complete my II before the New Year.

 

I cannot for the life of God find how we define VMC as 3sm vis and 1000 ft agl ceilings specifically by reference to FAA documents. I found 91.155 so please don't spout that as where.

I get IMC as defined. It is simply when weather minimums are less than VMC.

Hmmmm no shįt Sherlock moment there....so please point me in a direction for me to fish tonight.

Edited December 10, 2013 by WolftalonID

[WolftalonID]

You know what.....NM lol. I am tired apparently because it is right where I was not looking.

Hmmmm

91.155. I feel like an ass but hey if the shoe fits right., hahaha

 

91.155 ©, (d) (1)&(2).

 

Honestly why cant these terms be in part 1 definitions with details.

Edited December 10, 2013 by WolftalonID

[CharyouTree]

That's not defining VMC. That's defining what is considered VFR at an airport. Less than that, and you have to be filed, or special VFR to operate in that airspace, but it doesn't mean you're IMC.

[ridethisbike]

Even without paragraph (d), the first thing you read is "no person may operate under VFR when the flight visibility is less, or at a distance from clouds that is less, than that of .... the following table"

 

Which means anything less than 3 SM vis is considered IFR.

 

Now the next question for you... where does it say that if ceilings are below 1,000' that it is IFR conditions?

[Retreating Brain Stall]

why on the subject a fun one that always twists my mind is finding a metric definition of VFR, MVFR, IFR, & LIFR. I can find the miles no problem, but an official metrics visibility in kilometers? (You can convert but then it probably is rounded one way or another). Maybe in an ICAO doc that I'm not willing to fork out money for?

[WolftalonID]

 

Now the next question for you... where does it say that if ceilings are below 1,000' that it is IFR conditions?

The previous paragraph 91.155 ©. The 3 mile 1000' VFR rule however is for operations at a controlled airport.

 

What I was doing on my first post was reading the table, skiming over the written part. After I posted and headed down stairs, it dawned on me, I posted a smart ass remark....and now I knew it would be where I said it wasnt.....so I ran back to my desk and reread it.....and in my FAR was a sub note that said HEY DUMBASS LOOK HERE...... Lol. And lo and behold it was there. Hahaha

 

Sometimes I get on a tangent, study for hours, and find I am not reading efficiently. That happened the other night.

[ridethisbike]

Sometimes I get on a tangent, study for hours, and find I am not reading efficiently. That happened the other night.

 

It happens to the best of us. When I read your original post I was always just pulling my information from that table. Then I started thinking about the 1,000' ceiling thing. Realized I didn't know the answer to it, so I posted it up here. It was just as much a fact finding mission on my part as it was on yours lol

[CharyouTree]

Even without paragraph (d), the first thing you read is "no person may operate under VFR when the flight visibility is less, or at a distance from clouds that is less, than that of .... the following table"

 

Which means anything less than 3 SM vis is considered IFR.

 

Now the next question for you... where does it say that if ceilings are below 1,000' that it is IFR conditions?

 

 

You can't skip parts... "...than that prescribed for the corresponding altitude and class of airspace... in the following table"

 

You could be less than 1 mile, and be VFR (and you can be at 1/2 mile, and be VMC...), or you can be at 4 miles, and not be VFR

[iChris]

 

You can't skip parts... "...than that prescribed for the corresponding altitude and class of airspace... in the following table"

 

You could be less than 1 mile, and be VFR (and you can be at 1/2 mile, and be VMC...), or you can be at 4 miles, and not be VFR

 

That's correct...

 

The minimum requirements change depending on the exact airspace classification. There are a variety of classifications, which determine flight rules, pilot qualifications, and aircraft capabilities required in order to operate within any specific section of airspace. Therefore, just one fixed set of numbers would not be applicable.

 

In general terms, VMC means there must be at least 3 miles of visibility and the pilot must be able to remain clear of clouds by at least 500 feet. However, in any case, in order to fly under VMC/VFR, the weather must meet or exceed the minimum requirements of the specific rules that govern the procedures and conditions specific to that section of airspace.

 

As an example, under §91.157 SVFR, a helicopter can operate clear of clouds without any specific visibility requirement; however, under §135.205 a pilot requesting SVFR would have to comply with set visibility requirements of ½ mile day and 1 mile night.

 

Federal Aviation Administration Pilot/Controller Glossary

 

VISUAL METEOROLOGICAL CONDITIONS- Meteorological conditions expressed in terms of visibility, distance from cloud, and ceiling equal to or better than specified minima.

 

VISUAL FLIGHT RULES- Rules that govern the procedures for conducting flight under visual conditions.

 

INSTRUMENT METEOROLOGICAL CONDITIONS- Meteorological conditions expressed in terms of visibility, distance from cloud, and ceiling less than the minima specified for visual meteorological conditions.

 

INSTRUMENT FLIGHT RULES [iCAO]- A set of rules governing the conduct of flight under instrument meteorological conditions.

 

SPECIAL VFR CONDITIONS- Meteorological conditions that are less than those required for basic VFR flight in Class B, C, D, or E surface areas and in which some aircraft are permitted flight under visual flight rules.

Edited December 23, 2013 by iChris

[ridethisbike]

I wasn't skipping for the sake of skipping. I just didn't feel like typing out the rest of the reg that anyone has the capability of looking up.

 

As far as skimming over paragraphs... I admit I did that. As have 100% of the aviators out there. It's an easy thing to do when you think you already have your answer. Is it smart to do? Nope. But has everyone on this industry done it at one point or another? I'd bet my first born on it.

[avbug]

Which means anything less than 3 SM vis is considered IFR.

 

 

Really? How do you explain special VFR, then?

 

Let's not get meteorological conditions confused with flight rules. VMC is not the same as VFR. IMC is not the same as IFR.

[WolftalonID]

I was under the impression special vfr is an IFR clearance due to the requirements to obtain it. ..... Still ifr conditions if its to a point its requested.

 

Special vfr just allows one to land fast, and with less than a published minimum visibility.

[Mikemv]

I was under the impression special vfr is an IFR clearance due to the requirements to obtain it. ..... Still ifr conditions if its to a point its requested.

 

Special vfr just allows one to land fast, and with less than a published minimum visibility.

 

"Special vfr just allows one to land fast, and with less than a published minimum visibility".

 

What about taking off/departing SVFR? What about less than 1,000' ceiling with good visby?

 

Can you operate in Delta airspace when conditions are less than 3 visby and/or ceiling below 1,000'? (think flight training)

[WolftalonID]

Well yes takin off too....was not really awake enough after last nights fun to take an iChris take on it! Lol

[AK60]

I was under the impression special vfr is an IFR clearance due to the requirements to obtain it.

 

 

 

Where are guys getting this from? I've been hearing it a lot lately.

[aeroscout]

 

Where are guys getting this from? I've been hearing it a lot lately.

They're probably confusing it with VFR on top, which is an IFR clearance.

[WolftalonID]

AIM 4-4-6 spells out the reason for me. Helicopters can depart controlled airports with less than 1 mile visibility by request of a SVFR clearance, avoiding a full IFR flight plan being filed.

 

Then there is the whole being instrument rated, and in an IFR ship after sunset for fixed wing pilots.

 

Pretty much wraps itself around being IFR not VFR.

 

Plus why take it from me when you can take it from the FAA

 

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/systemops/fs/alaskan/alaska/fai/svfr/

Edited December 23, 2013 by WolftalonID

[AK60]

Wolf, I think you're cherry picking. I tend to be very literal with the regs.

 

AIM 4-4-6 spells out the reason for me. Helicopters can depart controlled airports with less than 1 mile visibility by request of a SVFR clearance, avoiding a full IFR flight plan being filed.

 

This just states that you can avoid filing a full IFR flight plan. It does not state that SVFR is an IFR clearance.

 

Then there is the whole being instrument rated, and in an IFR ship after sunset for fixed wing pilots.

 

So does that mean it's a VFR clearance during the day for FW bubbas and an IFR clearance at night?

 

This is from your link;

If you request to enter or depart a surface area that is IFR, we will advise you that an ATC clearance is required, but it is up to you to then request a special VFR clearance if that is what you want.

 

Take a look at iChris' post. Anything about the Pilot/Controller Glossary's definition of SVFR stand out to you?

[WolftalonID]

Well I challenge you to a task. Next time your flying and its VFR conditions, request a SVFR clearance.....ATC will kindly let you know its VFR and you dont need one to depart, approach.

 

Now if its IFR conditions...its different. So how now is it NOT an IFR clearance? Its literally a grey area between IFR and utilizing declaring an emergency to get er done.....

 

It is NOT a VFR clearance as its not allowed to be requested when weather is VFR conditions.

 

To be a cherry picker, well if given two options its IFR. Given three options, its a catagory all its own.

 

I try to keep it simple amongst the confusion of regulations.

 

So the real question I ask on this topic is do I fly VFR? If the answer is no, then its IFR regardless of how I chose to get clearance to depart/arrive.

[Mikemv]

Following through this thread and ask myself, am I getting a clearance to fly IFR in less than VFR minima or VFR in less than VFR minima?

 

When flying on this clearance can I go IFR without a further clearance?

 

When flying on this clearance can I go VFR without a further clearance?

 

Is it called a Special IFR clearance or Special VFR clearance?

 

Am I flying on instruments or with reference to the ground?

 

Am I provided separation and obstacle clearance by ATC or am I avoiding CFIT/obstacles/aircraft myself?

 

Mike

[aeroscout]

Following through this thread and ask myself, am I getting a clearance to fly IFR in less than VFR minima or VFR in less than VFR minima?

 

When flying on this clearance can I go IFR without a further clearance?

 

When flying on this clearance can I go VFR without a further clearance?

 

Is it called a Special IFR clearance or Special VFR clearance?

 

Am I flying on instruments or with reference to the ground?

 

Am I provided separation and obstacle clearance by ATC or am I avoiding CFIT/obstacles/aircraft myself?

 

Mike

I'm going to follow you as you answer those questions.

I am assuming that many if not all are rhetorical.

[iChris]

I try to keep it simple amongst the confusion of regulations.

 

So the real question I ask on this topic is do I fly VFR? If the answer is no, then its IFR regardless of how I chose to get clearance to depart/arrive.

 

Well, keep it simple then; Special VFR is an ATC clearance to operate VFR under the special weather minimums of §91.157

 

In essence, the specified minima have been lowered to allow for flight under VFR with ATC clearance.

 

Note the rule itself: “§91.157 Special VFR weather minimums.”

 

Special VFR is not an IFR clearance, nor does it even qualify as such under §91.173.

 

 

 

 

 

§91.157 Special VFR weather minimums.

 

[a] Except as provided in appendix D, section 3, of this part, special VFR operations may be conducted under the weather minimums and requirements of this section, instead of those contained in §91.155, below 10,000 feet MSL within the airspace contained by the upward extension of the lateral boundaries of the controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport.

Edited December 24, 2013 by iChris

[ryan53]

SVFR is a clearance to operate below the "minimums" under vfr. A helicopter may be operated at less than these minimums if operated at a speed that allows the pilot adequate time to avoid a collision. If you were to get an IFR clearance and take off 100 feet over the tree line up the valley, someone's going to have a problem with this. If you get a svfr clearance the controller/controlling agency is basically saying there is no IFR traffic scheduled to come into the airport so he is giving you a clearance to fly in/out and he doesn't care what the weather is due to the fact that you're a helicopter. By no means is this an IFR clearance.

[CharyouTree]

Following through this thread and ask myself, am I getting a clearance to fly IFR in less than VFR minima or VFR in less than VFR minima?

 

When flying on this clearance can I go IFR without a further clearance?

 

When flying on this clearance can I go VFR without a further clearance?

 

Is it called a Special IFR clearance or Special VFR clearance?

 

Am I flying on instruments or with reference to the ground?

 

Am I provided separation and obstacle clearance by ATC or am I avoiding CFIT/obstacles/aircraft myself?

 

Mike

 

Thank you. You said what I was trying to figure out the words for, and more eloquently than I could have done.

[Velocity173]

SVFR is NOT an IFR clearance. I've issued dozens of them to aircraft arriving / departing the Class D. The clearance for SVFR is only a clearance to operate in surfaced based airspace with less than VFR wx mins. It's that simple.

 

Separation standards (500ft vertical) are different for SVFR and IFR as well. The one in and one out rule is generally applied but a lot of facilities have LOAs that allow reduced separation, especially when helicopters are involved.

 

Also, it doesn't matter if the airport's weather is reporting VFR, if the pilot reports that they can't maintain VMC, a SVFR clearance can be given.