Exempt from circling to land minimums

[Curyfury]

Where does it state that helicopters are not required to meet this minimum? That helicopters can continue an approach to minimums, even with a tailwind?

[Whiteshadow]

Can you state where you got the original statement that helicopters are exempt? Are you saying that, even in conditions that would normally require you to use the circling minimums, a helicopter pilot can ignore that requirement and use a lower minimum on the plate? I just want to clarify so that I know what you are asking.

[Jaybee]

I think what is being said is that Curyfury expected student or CFI or colleague or whatever to break off an approach to circling minimums because they had a tailwind.

 

If the tower clears you to use an approach and land on a runway and you accept it that's that. If you ask for a runway with a tailwind, there is nothing stopping you. If that runway has an ILS then you can go to ILS mins, there is nothing stopping you. There is nothing forcing you to use a runway with a headwind other than common sense and being extra careful. There is nothing inherently dangerous about appropriately executing a tailwind approach either.

[avbug]

Where does it state that helicopters are not required to meet this minimum? That helicopters can continue an approach to minimums, even with a tailwind?

 

A lot of approaches are conducted with a tailwind.

 

If you accept an approach to a straight in with a tailwind, knowing that the tailwind is for your landing runway or area, then you had better have determined in advance that you're able to do the landing under those conditions. If you find it questionable, don't accept the approach, and go elsewhere or request a different approach.

 

I don't understand your question about helicopters not meeting a minimum. You understand that the concept of circling minimums is obstacle protection, correct?

[Curyfury]

Jaybee understands what im asking, but i need a far or aim number to prove it. Im being quizzed by an old timer and while going through an ils approach plate with a circling to land min of 1000ft and the scenario was with a 20knot tailwind, will i be stuck with the circling mins. Even if i know the ceiling is 500 or am i allowed to continue to 200 with a raging tailwind and land? If so, which far/aim says i can?

[Jaybee]

If you are doing a circling approach then you need to use the circling minimums.

 

Seems like maybe he is trying to set you up/lead you to a contact approach or visual approach ?

[Whiteshadow]

There is nothing in the FAR/AIM that will direct you based on tailwinds. That is a performance / ADM / Experience only solution. I like Jaybees last answer so far the most. It still might not solve the problem of the tailwind. Other options that this may be leading you to:

 

- Reciprocal runway approaches available?

 

- Alternate airport feasibility / proximity?

 

- PAR or ASR available at that airport?

 

I can't think of anything else you could do in this scenario.

 

Jaybees answer would make the most sense, if you can circle around, use the reciprocal runway and do a visual / contact approach with a headwind.

[Pohi]

I think it depends on what you are flying.

 

I could see how this might be an issue if you are flying an airplane where you need lots of distance and a runway to land, but if you are in a helicopter, why not land like a helicopter?

 

Use the ILS to get you through the bad weather and clouds, and then when you break out and are certain that you will not lose visual contact with the airport just land like a helicopter normally would. Ask the tower to break off the approach and air taxi to the ramp, taxiway, intersection, or wherever. Then when you get to your spot, land into the wind. Or if the tower won't let you air taxi, land on the runway... just turn into the wind at the bottom if you need to.

 

Granted, if you are in something huge like a 139 or 92, then your passengers (or customers) might not appreciate you hooking it into the wind at the end of your approach.

 

Edit: I don't fly IMC with passengers at the moment, I'm thinking more along the lines if I'm by myself in my current airframe.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Pohi

[BCBOATER]

You are complicating it.

The tailwind is completely irrelevant to the question he asked you.

He is trying to trip you up with throwing it in.

You the pilot can land with a headwind, crosswind, or tailwind. That depends on your comfort level, and the capability of the machine you are in.

You can even request something other than the current active runway. You may not get it if its busy. But it is your right to ask.

No one can force you to land with a tailwind.

 

If it was me I would counter with my own question to this gentleman.

Ask him why he would want you to land with a tailwind?

If it was me I would respect you a lot more for questioning me,than just accepting anything I said.

My instructor used to throw things at me to see if i would make my own proper decision, or just do any stupid thing he asked with no regard to using my own judgement.

 

Always remember to the tower is an advisory,but the ultimate final decision is the PIC's.

You do not have to accept.

No one is responsible for the operation of your aircraft regardless of type, except the PIC.

 

Use common sense!

[avbug]

Jaybee understands what im asking, but i need a far or aim number to prove it. Im being quizzed by an old timer and while going through an ils approach plate with a circling to land min of 1000ft and the scenario was with a 20knot tailwind, will i be stuck with the circling mins. Even if i know the ceiling is 500 or am i allowed to continue to 200 with a raging tailwind and land? If so, which far/aim says i can?

 

The "FAR/AIM" is a commercial publication, that combines the Aeronautical Information Manual with a few sections of the Code of Federal Regulation.

 

If you are cleared for he VOR to runway 31 (circle to land 13), and have 1000' circling minimums, you'll be expected to remain at or above circling minimums while circling for runway 13.

 

Your question appears to be (I'll use 13/31 as an example):

You're cleared the VOR approach runway 31, circle to land 13.

Circling MDA for Runway 31 circling is 1000'.

Reported ceiling is 500 (under Part 91, you can fly the approach, but probably won't see the runway)

You have a 20 knot tailwind for the VOR 31 approach, hence the circle clearance to 13.

 

You want to know if you can fly down to 200' to runway 31, even though you have a 20 kt tailwind.

 

If your'e cleared the approach to runway 31, circle to 13, you could advise ATC you'd like to go straight in, provided in this case you have an ILS that will get you down to 200'.

 

If you're going to fly the procedure and air taxi to the landing spot, then it won't matter so much if you have a tailwind, especially if you get below 500' (reported ceiling) on the procedure.

 

Remember that ceiling isn't controlling on an approach. Visibility is controlling.

 

Why would you be accepting a circling procedure if you now the reported ceiling is 500' below MDA?

 

You wouldn't.

 

You should be briefing each approach. If you've briefed a 1000' MDA with circling, then that's the procedure you should fly. If you wish to change your procedure to a straight-in on 31 to lower minimums, you'll need to re-brief the procedure; go hold, figure it out, set your cockpit up accordingly, then go fly. You'll need to reconsider how you're going to execute the missed approach, and possibly your landing data.

 

When I say you should be briefing each approach I apply it equally to a single pilot cockpit, or a crew environment. You'll be reviewing the procedure, minimums, missed, cockpit set up, cockpit bugs and heading bugs (as applicable), use of cross radials, RMI/DME/ADF, even radar altimeter if applicable, as well as setting up sequencing, procedure selection, radio tuning, and so forth as your aircraft and procedure require. If you have two pilots, briefing the other pilot to ensure your'e on the same page is critical, but it's equally as critical that you do a thorough review and self-brief if your'e flying it alone. Don't brief one procedure and fly another. If you change the procedure you're going to fly, break it off, go set up for the one you've decided to fly, review and brief it, and then fly it. Don't set up for and brief one procedure, then fly another.

 

There's nothing to preclude you from making a straight-in if you are able, but you'll want to ensure you have the clearance to do it, no restrictions to the procedure (do you have obstacle protection, guidance, the necessary equipment, etc?), and you're briefed and set up.

 

200' is going to require an ILS. If you were cleared the ILS to circling minimums, or a LOC-only procedure to circling, then you're going to be using a different method to transition off the approach in the even you go missed. You'll need to be prepared for that and set up for it. Especially when you've got such high minimums (a thousand feet), you've got some tall obstacles to consider...don't go leaving your circling area or bumbling into it off the straight-in, without having a clear game-plan.

 

Yes, you can proceed to 200' straight-in if you have the procedure, equipment, and clearance to do so. Understanding that you'll be accepting the straight-in with a 20 knot tailwind, you can only accept it if you feel you can do it and you have no aircraft limitations to the contrary. If indeed you have a 500' ceiling, you really only need to get below the ceiling on the procedure, and if you have the necessary visual references advise that you have the field in sight and then make arrangements to land at your spot on the field. You don't necessarily need to land with the 20' tailwind.

 

You should remember and plan for a 20 knot faster groundspeed when you fly the approach (for timing purposes) and the missed approach.

[lelebebbel]

This is possibly a confusion with the Canadian regs? Up here you can actually, legally, circle to land in a helicopter on an IFR approach, but still use the straight in mins. Circling mins are NA for helicopters.

 

I don't know of any such rule in FAA land though.

[BCBOATER]

This is possibly a confusion with the Canadian regs? Up here you can actually, legally, circle to land in a helicopter on an IFR approach, but still use the straight in mins. Circling mins are NA for helicopters.

 

I don't know of any such rule in FAA land though.

I almost posted the same thing earlier....Then remembered the different rules for south of the 49th.

[Eric Hunt]

If your ILS minimum for straight-in is 200', and the cloud base is 500', you will most likely break out before the missed approach point. You are lined up with the runway, but down-wind.

 

Remember you are a helicopter. You will be at 70kt or so, so once you are visual and comfortable with what is going on, either call visual and request an air taxi to dispersal, or do a 180 quickstop to terminate on the runway, but facing the other way (into wind). Then air taxi away.

 

Circling minima will not come into the equation, as you will still be inside the width of the runway or at worst the 200' cleared part each side. Any pilot who can be called a pilot can carry this out inside the wingspan of an A380.

 

As far as your instructor trying to trick you, consider this: if you are cleared to the ILS for the non-duty runway and cleared for a circling approach, then there is no other aircraft within a bull's roar, nobody departing the into-wind runway, and you can do whatever you like for your (visual) arrival. So, instead of accepting the 1000' circling limit, ask for the straight-in approach. You are a helicopter.