so what schools are good for CFIIs?

[Pilot Wife]

Recently-married wife of a CFII and newbie to the industry wants to know what schools are good for a CFII to apply to for a job?

 

He got his CFII at a school in California but there were no openings at the time. Then he looked all over the state but no hirings. SSH is all over the place but since he didn't attend there, I guess the policy is that outsiders are never hired. Now he's at a small school where the boss is totally taking advantage of him -- he mst be "on call" at the office doing admin stuff for no pay and he only averages 9 hours of flight time a month! When he opened his mouth about the unfair treatment, the reply was basically, "It's my way or the highway". So now he's taking money out of his savings account to pay for food and gas to work duing the day at a job that doesn;t even pay him for the office stuff he does.

 

So since SSH is out of the question, how can he avoid ending up at another school that takes advantage of instructors like this one? What schools should he apply to for jobs. Even more important, what good schools are actually hiring outside of their student base? He so needs to get out of this current place -- he loves to fly and he has great references from his instructors but his "job" now is such a morale buster.

 

Any advice -- or job leads -- please pass on.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Jocko]

I saw your post on the other forum and my heart goes out to you. Nobody (and I mean NOBODY) should put up with it in any profession. Just keep looking and be prepared to move to follow the jobs for the first few years (so I'm told).

 

Prayers to you

 

 

Rock On

[dlo]

Recently-married wife of a CFII and newbie to the industry wants to know what schools are good for a CFII to apply to for a job?

 

He got his CFII at a school in California but there were no openings at the time. Then he looked all over the state but no hirings. SSH is all over the place but since he didn't attend there, I guess the policy is that outsiders are never hired. Now he's at a small school where the boss is totally taking advantage of him -- he mst be "on call" at the office doing admin stuff for no pay and he only averages 9 hours of flight time a month! When he opened his mouth about the unfair treatment, the reply was basically, "It's my way or the highway". So now he's taking money out of his savings account to pay for food and gas to work duing the day at a job that doesn;t even pay him for the office stuff he does.

 

So since SSH is out of the question, how can he avoid ending up at another school that takes advantage of instructors like this one? What schools should he apply to for jobs. Even more important, what good schools are actually hiring outside of their student base? He so needs to get out of this current place -- he loves to fly and he has great references from his instructors but his "job" now is such a morale buster.

 

Any advice -- or job leads -- please pass on.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

newbie, cfi II,

 

all schools are good to apply to as your husband probably already knows, whatever school will hire him and give him more hours, well developed large schools, usually have the most hours, check online, here, and justhelicopters.com and jsfirm.com to look for job openings. california probablly has the most schools of any state, so the chance for employment in california are probable better than other states. check all of the help wanted adds everyday and have resumes and a fax machine handy. call every flight school in california and get his name and resume out. fax resumes everyday and follow up on them. I know this sounds easier to me than you but it is the only way if he is not affiliated with any school. it always helps to work for the school you graduated from.

 

on the other hand, I feel your pain greatly. I have a few friends that are instructing at small schools and getting abused and no flight hours. Not really abused, but their job entales answering the phone, sweeping the floor, washing the bosses truck, picking up the bosses kids, filing , and basically anything the boss says to do, except fly. the owners slash bosses, do most of the flying and just hold the instructor around to fly whenever in is not convienent for them , the bosses to fly, if he gets with a more established school then hopfully things will change, keep his head up and get the words out and things will change. there are supossed to be many jobs available if he is willing to relocate..

 

good luck,

 

jp

[fry]

Recently-married wife of a CFII and newbie to the industry wants to know what schools are good for a CFII to apply to for a job?

 

He got his CFII at a school in California but there were no openings at the time. Then he looked all over the state but no hirings. SSH is all over the place but since he didn't attend there, I guess the policy is that outsiders are never hired. Now he's at a small school where the boss is totally taking advantage of him -- he mst be "on call" at the office doing admin stuff for no pay and he only averages 9 hours of flight time a month! When he opened his mouth about the unfair treatment, the reply was basically, "It's my way or the highway". So now he's taking money out of his savings account to pay for food and gas to work duing the day at a job that doesn;t even pay him for the office stuff he does.

 

So since SSH is out of the question, how can he avoid ending up at another school that takes advantage of instructors like this one? What schools should he apply to for jobs. Even more important, what good schools are actually hiring outside of their student base? He so needs to get out of this current place -- he loves to fly and he has great references from his instructors but his "job" now is such a morale buster.

 

Any advice -- or job leads -- please pass on.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

What did he think the job was going to be?? It's an apprenticeship...he's slave labor until he gets to 1,000 hours. The guys who have already done it (his boss) call it "paying yer dues". It is not unlike any occupation that requires the exercise of judgment; good judgment comes from experience (and experience comes from poor judgment; i.e., you make your mistakes when the cost of them is low). You get the basics in the first 200 hours but at only 200 hours no pilot has the judgment to be trusted...by the employer (i.e., the guy with his liability and capital at risk)...with expensive equipment and passenger lives.

 

If he's not willing to relocate...which is a fact of life in this business...he'd better just suck it up and make every hour that he does get to fly count toward acquiring the judgment and skills he'll need to get his first real flying job.

[DeezNutz]

What did he think the job was going to be?? It's an apprenticeship...he's slave labor until he gets to 1,000 hours. The guys who have already done it (his boss) call it "paying yer dues". It is not unlike any occupation that requires the exercise of judgment; good judgment comes from experience (and experience comes from poor judgment; i.e., you make your mistakes when the cost of them is low). You get the basics in the first 200 hours but at only 200 hours no pilot has the judgment to be trusted...by the employer (i.e., the guy with his liability and capital at risk)...with expensive equipment and passenger lives.

 

If he's not willing to relocate...which is a fact of life in this business...he'd better just suck it up and make every hour that he does get to fly count toward acquiring the judgment and skills he'll need to get his first real flying job.

 

he mst be "on call" at the office doing admin stuff for no pay and he only averages 9 hours of flight time a month!

 

No one should ever be required to work for nothing... that is a clear violation of just about any state's labor laws. If he is working for the school as an independent contractor, they cant even tell him when to show up for work... although not showing up for work tends to get you fired...

 

Paying your dues and working for free are two totally different things... Fry, your post appears to be a huge turn off to anyone looking to start a career as a helicopter pilot... you may consider a less negative approach... unless you are looking to turn people away from choosing a career path in helicopters.

[Gerhardt]

Is he sure that SSH will hire no one but its own graduates? They are opening a new training facility in St. Louis and have 7 CFI jobs posted on various web boards, and none of the postings state anything about needing to be a SSH graduate.

[Jocko]

first let me apologize to everyone who works on this forum for what I am going to say

 

FRY YOU ARE AN ASS!!!!!!!

 

and I hope your parents catch you playing with the computer when there not home and paddle your butt.

You obviously take great pleasure in trying to belittle people and discourage them at all costs. Why would you say something so asinine like that last post. Paying your dues has nothing to do with being treated like a slave and everything to do with respect. My guess is that your just the type of person to do this to somebody and feel justified, what next HAZING?

You are more than entitled to your views and opinions as I am, so I am not telling you to keep them to yourself by any means, But I for one will not play your silly games.

 

Again, I am sorry for blowing up like that but somebody had to say it and this is the last time you will see a post from me on this subject .

 

BTW

Rock on

[dlo]

hello,

 

ya paying your dues and slave labor, with nine hours a month, working for free doing admin stuff and being on call 24/7 is not paying your dues. that is crap, i would leave because that is a rare case of paying your dues. paying your dues means struggling for flight hours maybe only 40 a month, sometimes less. paying your dues is working for 20 dollars an hour when you are flying or teaching. yes paying your dues sucks, but this is just rediculous and un called for . he does not have to put up with this crap and I would leave now to protect his dignity. their are other ways to pay you dues which are more fair. a lot more flight hours for instance. I mean, that is what he is their for ,,, isn't it.........

 

jp

[Vaqueroaero]

Recently-married wife of a CFII and newbie to the industry wants to know what schools are good for a CFII to apply to for a job?

 

He got his CFII at a school in California but there were no openings at the time. Then he looked all over the state but no hirings. SSH is all over the place but since he didn't attend there, I guess the policy is that outsiders are never hired. Now he's at a small school where the boss is totally taking advantage of him -- he mst be "on call" at the office doing admin stuff for no pay and he only averages 9 hours of flight time a month! When he opened his mouth about the unfair treatment, the reply was basically, "It's my way or the highway". So now he's taking money out of his savings account to pay for food and gas to work duing the day at a job that doesn;t even pay him for the office stuff he does.

 

So since SSH is out of the question, how can he avoid ending up at another school that takes advantage of instructors like this one? What schools should he apply to for jobs. Even more important, what good schools are actually hiring outside of their student base? He so needs to get out of this current place -- he loves to fly and he has great references from his instructors but his "job" now is such a morale buster.

 

Any advice -- or job leads -- please pass on.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

This a sad reflection on the industry that we are involved in. Realistically there is no easy answer to the question, other than get as many resumes out to as many companies as possible. Also visiting places is a good idea as well.

 

We have all had to pay our dues in some way or another. I can remember way back when sitting for days on end at the flight school waiting for someone to walk through the door. What made it worse was that I didn't have the 200 hours necessary to instruct in the 22, so had to give away the flights.

However paying dues does not entail working for free. Even flying for free to build time is a big no-no.

 

Sadly there are people out there who will openly abuse those trying to get a foot on the ladder. I suggest that he applies to SSH. If he doesn't apply, then he can't be refused! Right?

 

Not trying to defend his boss, but right now 9 hours per month is better than 0 hours per month.

 

I still carry a piece of paper that was put on my pay check when I was just shy of 1000 hours and was asked to do a ferry flight. I put the flight time on my pay sheet. It reads:

 

It is, and always has been company policy that if a flight generates income, then the pilot gets paid. This is in regards to the aircraft ferry flight from XXXXXX. ( This next part still makes me laugh) In addition, if you wish to share the cost of the flight, then you are welcome to do so.

 

Needless to say I didn't hang around very long after that.

 

All I can say is be persistent and the break will eventually come. We've all been there and I sympathise. Sadly there is no easy answer.

[Pilot Wife]

Thanks all, for your open and honest advice (even Fry's).

 

I'm still learning about what you all do, and I guess like every industry, there's good people to trust and learn from, and there's bad ones to avoid. At least we're learning a good lesson about bad ones that will help us out in the future!

 

I appreciate all the comments here.

[fry]

Wow, sensitive group (especially the guy with the scarey skull id). Hey guys, if you're set off by a post that doesn't have smiley faces all over it you're going to have a rough time in this industry.

 

The fact is, aviation is a crappy business for the operators. The equipment cost a lot to acquire and maintain and just about everything else...e.g., facilities & insurance...is limited and expensive. Those are called fixed costs and they come due every month whether there have been customers or not. And those customers are anything but dependable from one year to the next. The operator has damned little control over most of his costs or his revenues; about the only expense that is somewhat flexible is labor. So that's what get squeezed.

 

Also, this is a fairly small industry. Do you see a lot of helicopters overhead during the day where you live? (And the one you do see has already got a pilot in it and another back at the base sweeping the hangar waiting for the first guy to drop dead.) If you think you are going to train where you've got your mortgage in Long Beach or San Diego or Podunk and then step into a forty hour a week job there you're in for a shock. For most of your career in this business you gotta go where the work is...relocation is a fact of life so you better get packed.

 

If hubby really wants to do this occupation and y'all don't want to move he'd better do his nine hours of flight time a month with a smile and when he's not working be out there hustling for a better deal and more stick time. Bringing in some paying customers would go along way toward increasing his stock with the owner.

 

And finally, if this is too negative for your delicate sensibilities, here's a tip: the only strangers who are going to give you positive reinforcement are politicians, someone trying to sell you something and losers looking for another loser to enable them. Other people will just let you make your mistakes.

[joshroyse.com]

Wow, sensitive group (especially the guy with the scarey skull id). Hey guys, if you're set off by a post that doesn't have smiley faces all over it you're going to have a rough time in this industry.

 

The fact is, aviation is a crappy business for the operators. The equipment cost a lot to acquire and maintain and just about everything else...e.g., facilities & insurance...is limited and expensive. Those are called fixed costs and they come due every month whether there have been customers or not. And those customers are anything but dependable from one year to the next. The operator has damned little control over most of his costs or his revenues; about the only expense that is somewhat flexible is labor. So that's what get squeezed.

 

Also, this is a fairly small industry. Do you see a lot of helicopters overhead during the day where you live? (And the one you do see has already got a pilot in it and another back at the base sweeping the hangar waiting for the first guy to drop dead.) If you think you are going to train where you've got your mortgage in Long Beach or San Diego or Podunk and then step into a forty hour a week job there you're in for a shock. For most of your career in this business you gotta go where the work is...relocation is a fact of life so you better get packed.

 

If hubby really wants to do this occupation and y'all don't want to move he'd better do his nine hours of flight time a month with a smile and when he's not working be out there hustling for a better deal and more stick time. Bringing in some paying customers would go along way toward increasing his stock with the owner.

 

And finally, if this is too negative for your delicate sensibilities, here's a tip: the only strangers who are going to give you positive reinforcement are politicians, someone trying to sell you something and losers looking for another loser to enable them. Other people will just let you make your mistakes.

 

wow..it took you 3 paragraphs to explain that your a dick...

[RotorWeed]

People, calling others names because you don’t share their opinion isn’t professional (it’s childish). Although you may not agree with FRY’s post that in no way gives you the right to engage in this nonsense.

Please let’s all do our part to keep this forum professional, and respect others posts.

 

RW

[Gerhardt]

Fry and I have taken to blows before but I have to stand by a lot of what he said in his last post.

[ADRidge]

Fry, as harsh as that last post is, I think you may have a point. From about day two of researching helicopters I came to the conclusion that I'd better be ready to move to find a job. To a guy with wanderlust (sp?) like me, that's not a bad proposition. Others may not like it.

 

To the original poster: If you think you're getting a raw deal where you are, follow the advice of most others on here. Send out resumes like your life depended on it.

 

Oh, another thought. If he's at a small school and only getting 9 hours, maybe it's just a matter of not having enough bodiescome through the door and not unfair treatment.

[Pilot Wife]

As I stated in my original e-mail, what concerns me is the fact that he is supposed to be "on call" five days a week and not getting paid for it. Not even minimum wage, zip, zilch, $0.

 

I may be a woman, but I do not have "delicate tendencies" as you so eloquently put it, we are willing to move elsewhere, and he is sending resumes out elsewhere. The reason I had originally e-mailed was to see if non-payment for office work was a typical thing and if not, what type of schools are better (bigger over smaller?) and any specific schools he should favor over others to send his resumes to?