Who paid and what?

[Scott83]

You are absolutely correct..."80K is out of control". Certainly to incur a prudent amount of debt as an investment in yourself is a reasonable choice. But signing up for a $69.9k loan at 10% to 14% and deferring the interest for 18 months is just plain stupid. The heli flight training business went through a boom the last few years due to easy money and low interest rates. And the same thing happened as always happens in booms...too many folks got involved. The dot.com stock market boom and the no-down-interest-only home loan boom ended with huge money transfer from the buyers to the sellers & lenders. The training boom will end the same way...the sellers & lenders will get rich and the buyers will be making monthly payments for twenty years. And most of those buyers of training will never become working helicopter pilots.

 

Finally, comparing a university education (Harvard of all places) to a vocational pilot training program is nonsense. With one you come out with a broadbased education that will open doors to at least an upper middle class lifestyle. With the other you get a driver's license. A working helicopter pilot's position is not a profession, it is the equivalent of a heavy equipment driver in pay and lifestyle. To pay $70k for what amounts to less than a community college Associate's degree is nutz.

 

Fry,

 

I do understand your arguement, but I do have to disagree with some points. First off your comment of just getting a "driver's license" is the wrong attitude. You can't put this industry into one category, so basically what I'm saying is you get what you want out of it. With your attitude, what you will get out of this industry is a licensed heavy equipment operator.

 

Do I find spending large amounts of money in any degree a bad idea? Yes, but in my opinion, you can't put a price on what you want to do for a living and also you can't put a price on education. If you do it responsibly, I think people should pursue a career in aviation if they have the strong desire, as long as research is done to determine what the best course of action is to meet your goal.

 

That's all I will say for now, since I'm running out of time. I have quite a few more things I would like to add later.

 

Scott

[Superman]

If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him.

An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest.

 

Benjamin Franklin

[Tenacious T]

If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him.

An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest.

 

Benjamin Franklin

 

Well said, Ben. Well quoted, Superman.

 

After all, what man here is qualified to judge the extent or methods another man will go to in order to pursue his dream. I for one will let nothing stand in my way. Not even a crappy interest rate.

[tvman345]

A working helicopter pilot's position is not a profession, it is the equivalent of a heavy equipment driver in pay and lifestyle. To pay $70k for what amounts to less than a community college Associate's degree is nutz.

 

Wow!? Either you are not a pilot, or you are one of those old burnt out types. I am not here to start a battle, but I would imagine that several on this forum would argue that they are professionals.

To each their own and good luck to all who are in training. I will say though, that people like you, fry, have a larger impact than you think on those who are trying to become helicopter pilots. Your attitude and the attitudes of those burnt out, grouchy, job-hating pilots like you, only serves to further discourage any potential pilots on this board.

 

Anyway, now that I'm done my rant, fly safe and may you and everyone here have a happy holiday season.

Edited December 21, 2006 by tvman345

[67november]

Wow!? Either you are not a pilot, or you are one of those old burnt out types. I am not here to start a battle, but I would imagine that several on this forum would argue that they are professionals.

To each their own and good luck to all who are in training. I will say though, that people like you, fry, have a larger impact than you think on those who are trying to become helicopter pilots. Your attitude and the attitudes of those burnt out, grouchy, job-hating pilots like you, only serves to further discourage any potential pilots on this board.

 

Anyway, now that I'm done my rant, fly safe and may you and everyone here have a happy holiday season.

 

 

well put tvman. Fry IMO your comment was a bit out of line, this is a tough industry to begin with, without having bombastic comments like that posted for those who are trying to break into this field.

 

I myself know what it's like to get into this field as I did it 20+ years ago bending wrenches and it was not easy back then, nor is it easy now, whether you want to fly'em or fix'em it takes a dedication that most of the general public do not understand.

 

fly safe everyone and Merry Christmas

[james28]

yea fry, what you said upset me quite a bit. i'm sure it was hurtful to all the pilots and pilots in training here at the forums as well. ty is right, you never know how great an effect your words can have upon others.

[RHS1]

You are absolutely correct..."80K is out of control". Certainly to incur a prudent amount of debt as an investment in yourself is a reasonable choice. But signing up for a $69.9k loan at 10% to 14% and deferring the interest for 18 months is just plain stupid. The heli flight training business went through a boom the last few years due to easy money and low interest rates. And the same thing happened as always happens in booms...too many folks got involved. The dot.com stock market boom and the no-down-interest-only home loan boom ended with huge money transfer from the buyers to the sellers & lenders. The training boom will end the same way...the sellers & lenders will get rich and the buyers will be making monthly payments for twenty years. And most of those buyers of training will never become working helicopter pilots.

 

Finally, comparing a university education (Harvard of all places) to a vocational pilot training program is nonsense. With one you come out with a broadbased education that will open doors to at least an upper middle class lifestyle. With the other you get a driver's license. A working helicopter pilot's position is not a profession, it is the equivalent of a heavy equipment driver in pay and lifestyle. To pay $70k for what amounts to less than a community college Associate's degree is nutz.

Hello Fry

I"m one of those sorry souls thats opted for a community college Associate's degree in rotory wing avation and I would like to know what it is you do for a living. I have been looking at your post for a long time now and they all same the same thing more or less if you finance your flight training your dumb. Although I agree it is risky business I believe it is well worth the risk. And for you to say flying helos for a living is not a profession is actually hillaroius to me, I can't even be offended by such a rediculous comment. So whats the deal here are you a banker or a pilot small fry

[oldcobrapilot]

Find something that you love to do so much that you would do it for free.

 

Now, do it well enough that someone will pay you to do it.

 

(Kinda describes flying don't it ?)

 

WAY too many people have jobs that they hate.

 

I know. I was one of 'em.

 

I don't make a lot of money but I do what I love and I love what I do!!!

 

Pursue your dream. You won't regret it. GODSPEED to all my flying brothers and sisters.

[Tiger Mike]

Taking out a loan and being in debt is normal. But normal is being broke and in debt for a life time.

 

Pay with cash. Pay as you go. You will finish eventually and have someting every normal pilot dosen't have.

 

MONEY.

[fry]

What is it with all this "professional pilot" stuff. Being a "professional pilot" just means drawing a paycheck for driving an airborne bus. Read some of the crap over on the Just Helicopters board where those guys are whining that the companies should pay them more because they are "professionals". Do you see "professional" truckdrivers, heavy equipment operators, beauticians, dental hygenists, etc strutting around proclaiming themselves "PROFESSIONALS"? Geezus, pilots really need to get over themselves...too many are starting to believe their own hype.

 

And the "training academies" and bankers are feeding on it...you're borrowing money to put their kids through college. "Live your dream"...it's marketing hype guys and you're falling for it. Borrowing $70k to pay for 200 flight hours when you need at least 1,000 to get a job paying $50k should really set off some alarm bells. You'll be writing a check every month for the next twenty years. It's like getting a girl pregnant and then paying child support every month until the kid is grown.

 

Incurring that kind of debt to get training that is only good for one thing is a classic case of putting all your eggs in one basket. You'd better be right. And how many people in their 20s have that much certainty in what they wil be doing for the next twenty years.

 

Flying is great...don't ruin it by having to make a living at it. Go to college, get a high paying job and fly for fun.

[Scott83]

What is it with all this "professional pilot" stuff. Being a "professional pilot" just means drawing a paycheck for driving an airborne bus. Read some of the crap over on the Just Helicopters board where those guys are whining that the companies should pay them more because they are "professionals". Do you see "professional" truckdrivers, heavy equipment operators, beauticians, dental hygenists, etc strutting around proclaiming themselves "PROFESSIONALS"? Geezus, pilots really need to get over themselves...too many are starting to believe their own hype.

 

And the "training academies" and bankers are feeding on it...you're borrowing money to put their kids through college. "Live your dream"...it's marketing hype guys and you're falling for it. Borrowing $70k to pay for 200 flight hours when you need at least 1,000 to get a job paying $50k should really set off some alarm bells. You'll be writing a check every month for the next twenty years. It's like getting a girl pregnant and then paying child support every month until the kid is grown.

 

Incurring that kind of debt to get training that is only good for one thing is a classic case of putting all your eggs in one basket. You'd better be right. And how many people in their 20s have that much certainty in what they wil be doing for the next twenty years.

 

Flying is great...don't ruin it by having to make a living at it. Go to college, get a high paying job and fly for fun.

 

 

I'm sorry to say, but you're living in a fantasy land. If you think just going to college will get you a high paying job, your insane. I know of too many people that have a 4yr degree and haven't amounted to anything. As discussed before, the outcome of your life depends on one person, YOU.

 

If you have a good attitude, strong work ethic, and decent skills, you can go far in life, no matter what you do. That even includes being a helicopter pilot.

 

Also to add to your "helicopter pilots are not professionals" I agree in certain situations. There are professional helicopter pilots, and there are the airborne bus drivers like yourself and many on JustHelicopters.

[montu]

So pilots who do firefighting and ems are just flying an airborne bus?

 

Jordan

Edited December 21, 2006 by montu

[FauxZ]

The main difference between a normal heavy equipment operator and a pilot is the training. We are required to know some basic meteorology, psychology, physiology, as well as operate a vehicle under a wide range of regulations and restrictions. We are required to operate vehicles costing hundreds of thousands of dollars safely and efficiently where even the slightest flaw can lead to a total loss.

 

It is exceptionally difficult to cause enough damage to completely write off a semi or dump truck or crane, not so with an aircraft. Run into a building with your dump truck and the local police might have a thing or two to say to your boss. Hit it with a helicopter and he'll be dealing with the Feds.

 

So yes they are similar, both are simply forms of transportation. It's almost like saying your 10 year old son should be making $250k a year because he plays football, just like the Broncos do. (Grew up in Denver, duh). The level of training and responsibility are an order of magnitude greater than being a bus driver.

 

Personally, I think that the pilot pay scale is all over the place. Fixed wingers have fairly expensive training costs, horrible starting pay, and exceptional pay with years of service. Rotors on the other hand have exceptional training costs, ok starting pay, and not bad pay after years of service. (starting pay doesn't count the CFI gig as it sucks for both FW and RW). A job right out of "school" paying 45k a year isn't bad. It's not great mind you, but it's not bad. If you look at the cost of schooling though, it's pretty weak.

 

Bottom line. Anyone can drive a bus. Not anyone can fly. Regardless of what you do, if it's something you love, if you love in spite of it's flaws, you'll never work a day in your life. If it's something enjoy as long as it's not too hard, you'll find a way to hate it soon enough.

[fry]

Personally, I think that the pilot pay scale is all over the place. Fixed wingers have fairly expensive training costs, horrible starting pay, and exceptional pay with years of service. Rotors on the other hand have exceptional training costs, ok starting pay, and not bad pay after years of service. (starting pay doesn't count the CFI gig as it sucks for both FW and RW). A job right out of "school" paying 45k a year isn't bad. It's not great mind you, but it's not bad. If you look at the cost of schooling though, it's pretty weak.

 

A job "right out of school" (by which I believe you mean after an individual has served a couple year apprenticeship as a CFI) making $45k maybe "isn't bad" but, making only $55k - $65k ten years later sucks. Especially after going in hock $70k for the basic training.

 

Check out the wage scales: http://brian.hudson.home.mchsi.com/helopay...cales/index.htm

 

Look at AEL (EMS company with $300 million a year in revenue), they start out giving raises of about 4%+...two points above inflation...but after ten years the annual raises only equal inflation. That means after ten years your pay is effectively capped. Granted AEL pays worse than some of the GOM operators but also a hell of a lot better than smaller operators or seasonal work.

 

And why do they pay like that, because being a pilot is not a scaleable occupation...i.e., you don't become more valuable to the company above a certain level of experience. After 2,000 hours (or some such number) each additonal hour of experience does not make you a better pilot...at least as far as the company is concerned...so why pay you more. They can get a new 1,000 pilot and start him climbing up the salary scale again but if you want to stay you can...they just won't pay you more.

 

And what are you going to do? Move into management? Did any of that $70k in training prepare you for anything beyond stick-jiggling? And even if you are willing to cap your lifestyle at $65k because you are "living your dream of flight" what kind of security is there in flying for a living? Look up, do you see a lot of helicopters flying around? It's a fairly limited employment environment with a lot of competition for the available jobs. Regardless of what SSH says in their sales pitch, there is no coming shortage of pilots. What there is is a shortage of profits in the companies hiring pilots and that is going to keep pilot pay down.

 

So...spending $70k for the minimum level of vocational training to enter a job field with those kinds of prospects is a bad investment.

[Pogue]

So Fry, I just have to ask given your obvious disdain for all things related to professional piloting... Why are you even gracing us with your presence? Seems like you would consider it a waste of your time.

[james28]

you don't become a career pilot for pay. you do it because it's your dream and something you love. if people want to be pilots, let em fry. it's their decision, not yours.