The pay of a commercial pilot

[hansbystrom]

yea, i can see that going the pilot route and paying for training is a total waste of money.......yea right.

 

like most professions, it takes training to get there, and it's usually not cheap. please tell me a profession that takes little or no capital to train for but pays big bucks in return?

Well, you can go to Sweden where the universities are not allowed to charge tuition.

Actually, you get paid for going to school!

(Of course, they dont help you with helicopter licenses.... pffh.)

 

Fry: You do seem to know a lot of stuff about this. But still, why be so anal? Why cant you just use your knowlede to help us newbies, instead of discouraging us??

[klas]

Well, you can go to Sweden where the universities are not allowed to charge tuition.

Actually, you get paid for going to school!

(Of course, they dont help you with helicopter licenses.... pffh.)...

 

 

Aaaaand what again is the tax rate in Sweden?

[fry]

yea, i can see that going the pilot route and paying for training is a total waste of money.......yea right.

 

like most professions, it takes training to get there, and it's usually not cheap. please tell me a profession that takes little or no capital to train for but pays big bucks in return?

 

Well yeahhh, I think that was my point. Helicopter flight training does take significant capital but it does not pay big bucks in return.

 

me? i was the kid at the airport, spending all my money i made on flight lessons and being an airport bum. joined the navy one week after graduating high school, worked as an avionics tech, and joined the navy flying club. got out, used my GI bill and got my ratings. worked as a flight instructor, charter, fire patrol, etc and worked my way into an airline seat. i'm now a senior B727 captain, working about 8 days per 28 day bid,

 

But...you did not borrow at high rates for the training and you did pursue the high return route, fixed wing unionized airline pilot, see number 12 on the list.

 

and have my own helicopter business which is doing quite well. this last year my earnings will be in excess of $250,000.

 

Selling helicopter flight training?

[jet trash]

in my opinion, this thread is leading nowhere except to fuel an inane debate that "fry" wants to perpetuate for his own amusment. why this guy has a chip on his shoulder is beyond me, and why he devotes so much time on what i consider is the most professional website devoted to helicopters trying to discourage others from helicopters and helicopter training.

 

we each make our own decisions in life as to what we want to do, and how to go about it. my post was just an example of will, determination and following "my dream". and i encourage others to do so.

 

life is not measured by the size of a paycheck, or the type equipment you fly.

 

this concludes anymore post from me on this topic.

[james28]

you can get all ur ratings at vortex for 50k. i don't know what world you live in, but 50k a year starting is a plenty respectable salary. especially for single guy.

[Wally]

Granted, life as an "employee" will always be sub-par.

 

You do have the power to make your own way as large or small as you choose.

 

Owners (in any field) MAKE money. Employees will ALWAYS only receive an allowance.

 

Owners (in any field) dictate their own schedule. Employees will ALWAYS have the 1 or 2 weeks a year.

 

a 55K annual return on an investment of 70K is garbage....any way you slice it. Who gives a crap is your passionate. Thats a poor investment any way you slice it.

 

So, what is to keep a newly minted pilot from starting his own business, starting out small doing rides or whatever, generating revenue. As simply as that you are now in control of your future. You can fly, you can make money, and you can work as hard as you want. The harder you work, the more YOU make (not someone else). Yes, you could work overtime for PHI or your hospital to get a little extra scratch....but you still wont get the benefits of owning your own business and you will NEVER even get so much as a look of the uber-money that your employer makes. Now when you are the employer....its a whole different can of worms.

 

I already know that I wont ever make crap as pilot (for someone else). I do know that I can get a return on my investment if I go at it myself. All of these mega-operators started out with one helicopter and one or 2 guys back in the day. 20 or 30 years later, they are fortune 500, publicly traded, multi-million dollar operations.

 

You read soo much about how every operator is just crap to work for, bottom feeders etc. CHANGE IT! The reason people dont goes back into the societal sheep factor....its EASIER to just follow the herd. Screw that! If you dont ever take any risks you will never get return.

 

It makes absolutely NO SENSE at all to spend 70K on training and then hurry off to a 12K a year job as an instructor. A new pilot CAN go out and get a job (working for themselves). Yes, its expensive and there are a mryiad of programs for people to start a business. So, having said all that........What is your excuse?

 

Your statement is far too broad "Owners (in any field) MAKE money." The axiom is that 90% of new businesses fail in the first year. Anybody starting a new business has got to be aware that the odds are heavily against "success".

I know jerks who've done well in business for themselves, and smart folks who've failed repeatedly. The ability to make a business succesful relies on a lot of things. Business training helps, but in my observation it only makes the good better. A business isn't a spreadsheet, and it's much more than being being a good salesman.

I'm an employee of a nation EMS service company, with basic supervisory responsibilities. I'm also the non-professional partner in a professional enterprise, for some 8 years. I don't spend anywhere near as much time in the business, but that's what keeps me up nights- Staffing especially, followed by A/R and cash flow management- we're very much on an allowance.

On the other hand, as an EMS employee, I work a 12-14 hours a day, 7&7, with the odd couple hours on my off days. Yeah, I only get a week and half of vacation every year. My wages are on a pay scale, while my business has almost unlimited potential earnings, I'd get out of the entrepreneurial side of my life instantly if frogs had wings.

There's a reason why people live longer than 99.99% of businesses.

[mrrga25]

I am in Iraq sucking sand 13hrs a day 7 days a week for this change in career.I could take the money invest it and simply hate my job.You hear of all these managers and co's offing their selves from stress.To be able to get in and do something that makes me happy is 10 times more important than money.As long as I have food and a roof over my head what more do you need.I spent all my G.I bill on a degree that really isn't what I want to do.I would make more doing that but I have to realize I don't want to die bored,and people never really die rich....

[John90290]

This is crazy, but i'm thinking - Astronomers -- $101,360- i mean, we're already at least 500 feet closer than anyone else, just tag that salary on

[Tenacious T]

Dang, is it to late to switch to astronomer school?

 

In my life I have often been broke and unhappy, if I end up being broke and happy as a helicopter pilot it would be a step in the right direction.

[Gomer Pylot]

What many people don't realize is that pilots earn starting pay forever, unless they stay with one operator forever. With 10k hours, an ATP, thousands of hours of night and instrument time, you'll get the same 50k/year if you change employers, and with many you won't ever get much beyond starting pay. In most occupations, you get credit for experience, and can change employers and often get a raise. Not in aviation. For some reason, it just doesn't work that way. Just be aware of the fact that you'll be earning starting pay for the rest of your life, unless you get very lucky. And also, you need to know that any job, even Helicopter Pilot Hero, gets to be just a job after awhile.

[KeallaS]

Not to mention the loss of your medical!

Then what do you have to fall back on??

[jbax22]

Not trying to start anything Fry, but why do you have such a pessimistic attitude

toward helo training? I totally agree that it is not all rosy cozy and many people

are sucked in by crooked training outfits making false promises, but at some

point people have to pursue what they feel led to do. All in all, when it comes to money

you must remember, "You can't take it with you."

 

Josh

 

"I never saw a hearse pulling a U-Haul Trailer."

[hansbystrom]

Aaaaand what again is the tax rate in Sweden?

Uhmm.... income tax is 33-56 %, depending on salary...

Hmm, Im really doing the wrong thing here... I should get my education in Sweden, and then move to the US, not the other way around. Darn.

[lwalling]

Being a business owner myself, I can say that the expenses to start most any business are substantial as is the period of time it takes to grow that business into something profitable. This applies to anything from aviation to fast food! .

 

I think some of what others have echoed here is important to consider: It's not just about the money you earn, its whether you like it (love it!) or not. Earning a good paycheck is important, but if you do so in a job (or even as a business owner) that you do not like - thats not making a "living" at all. We only live once, afterall.

 

The flight training expenses I'm looking at aren't that bad either, perhaps its just the area I'm in, though building up your flight hours necessary to obtain many of the decent jobs I'm seeing discussed could be quite expensive.

 

Most people would say the excuse is the capital required...and they'd be right. The outlay for the aircraft (lease or buy) and the working capital to keep things running until the revenues exceed the expenses are substantial in aviation. And of course there is the very real risk that the revenues will never exceed the expenses and the owner loses his entire investment...wasn't there a thread not long ago about that and HSH.

[500pilot]

What many people don't realize is that pilots earn starting pay forever, unless they stay with one operator forever. With 10k hours, an ATP, thousands of hours of night and instrument time, you'll get the same 50k/year if you change employers, and with many you won't ever get much beyond starting pay. In most occupations, you get credit for experience, and can change employers and often get a raise. Not in aviation. For some reason, it just doesn't work that way. Just be aware of the fact that you'll be earning starting pay for the rest of your life, unless you get very lucky. And also, you need to know that any job, even Helicopter Pilot Hero, gets to be just a job after awhile.

 

This is probably one of the most important posts in this thread. Unless you want to work in the gulf all your life (no offense Gomer Pylot) where you know that most large companies will always be in busimess, most aviation companies dont tend to last long enough to be able to retire on. An EMS base may close, a news contract may go to another operator or a company might just simply fold. If you had been working for that one company for any length of time you would probably have been making a pretty decent salary if you had been getting annual raises etc. If that company goes under you now have to look for more work. You might have gazillion hours with every rating but to the operator hiring he/she probably sees they can hire a lower time pilot to do the same job at around 50k. You might be able to negotiate for a smaller increase than that due to your experience but to much and the operator will say see ya. How would you like to go from making 70-80k to 50k and doing the same amount of work while being at the bottom rung. That is the big problem here. As GP pointed out many industries will compensate you for your experience but helicopters will not. There is always a fresh faced pilot just dying to get into that turbine seat for the "experience"

[proman]

This seems to be a post about your return on investment. More about you initial investment on you chosen career path. I think Fry has a great point it is a poor ROI, and every potential student should look into that aspect. What I have not seen in here is what the average American owes on their credit cards or the vehicle they buy every three years. Where may I ask is the ROI there?! Does quality of life really have to do with the amount of junk filling the garage? Or does quality of life have to do with the events that make up your life? This goes to show that maybe instead of discouraging people from going into their chosen field no matter what it may be, maybe we should take that time to educate them about how they can make that feasibly higher income while doing what they love. Maybe we need to start a lending organization that produces low interest loans for aviation career training, available to schools that are really out there to produce great pilots and not just an assembly line popping out average ones. Or just plain money management. There are a million new business ventures out there that could possibly improve the aviation industry. The problem is right now not many of us have the capital or experience to incorporate them.

These forums were made to house discussions about helicopter flight training. What a lot of you need to realize there are a few negative aspects of becoming a career helicopter pilot and that one of them was pointed out here. We should be able to respect that, as it will help weed out the people that may have been initially interested in becoming a pilot for the money (possibly fry). Yes Most of us really just love flying and would probably be willing to do it for room and board. Like I said earlier the potential students coming in here to get the facts need to get just that the facts because it doesn't help going into training without these insights.

So in closing this whole jumble of letters says: Yes we love the positive aspects of being or becoming a helicopter pilot, BUT we need the negative too!!!!! If you look at the operating cost of an R22 and what we are charged it is definitely a lucrative business for the owner. And they have earned it for taking that leap and making it work. After all they have to make their ROI +. So become an entrepreneur. For those of us who do have the passion for this career maybe we should put some effort into improving it. All in all there are some great view points in this discussion.

[Gomer Pylot]

And I have to make the point one last time, that any job, including helicopter pilot, eventually becomes just a job. I promise you, the thrill doesn't last forever. When the thrill is gone, and the money is scarce, it's not fun any longer. If the pay is good, you at least have that, but with poor pay and no fun, it can get bleak, especially when Momma ain't happy. When Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. Just keep that in mind.