How Many Hours to Solo?

[joker]

If my instructor didn’t have to answer to the school's owner

 

Interesting....nothing motivated me more to be overly prudent in my decision to solo a student than my concience, and the fact that it was MY licence on the line if the decision was wrong.

 

My boss didn't come into it. In fact, I almost lost my job for not soloing a contract student.

 

As for Gomers comments, I have to say, I think they are unusually rich for him, totally wrong, and pretty unfair to lump every civilian instructor in the same boat.

 

I worked at one of the busiest flight schools in the country. Its reputation was secure. my job was secure and so was the flow of students.

 

Civilian schools, and their CFIs, have a vested interest in extending the time before solo, because they both make more money the longer it takes. I'm sure none will admit to that, but money is always lurking around somewhere, and denying that is simply dishonest.

 

Sorry matey, but you couldn't be further from the truth. Furthermore, I don't really care to be accused of being dishonest by someone who knows me not.

 

Joker

Edited February 7, 2007 by joker

[nsdqjr]

Interesting....nothing motivated me more to be overly prudent in my decision to solo a student than my concience, and the fact that it was MY licence on the line if the decision was wrong.

 

My boss didn't come into it. In fact, I almost lost my job for not soloing a contract student.

 

As for Gomers comments, I have to say, I think they are unusually rich for him, totally wrong, and pretty unfair to lump every civilian instructor in the same boat.

 

I worked at one of the busiest flight schools in the country. Its reputation was secure. my job was secure and so was the flow of students.

Sorry matey, but you couldn't be further from the truth. Furthermore, I don't really care to be accused of being dishonest by someone who knows me not.

 

Joker

 

Joker quick let's write this down!!! We agree on something!!

[flyby_heli]

Ok, I'll put my head on the chopping block now.....

 

It seems i do things a little different then most instructors on here, maybe that's a good thing and maybe not.

Soloing a student is all about making the student more confident and comfortable in the machine. Doesn't matter what they do when they solo, as long as they solo. With this in mind, I always sign my students off for hover solo first. Allowing them to only hover around the airport or field or whatever, and do pedal turns, pickups/setdowns, hover taxiing and stuff like that. They don't have do do perfect autos, cause they are not going to altitude. It's just to build their confidence. After they have done this for an hour or two I start doing more advanced maneuvers, and I think they learn faster because they are more confident and no longer in a "rush" to solo. Maybe it's just me......?

 

This way i have had students solo as early as 6 hours, and no one has gone over 16 hours or so. But I also know it's my ass on the line if they mess up, so i never sign anyone of unless i have 100% confidence in what they are doing.

 

Let the slaying begin.....

 

Edit: I just wanted to mention that I'm instructing at a part 61 school, so i can set up the lessons any way i want. I know a lot of you are locked in on a syllabus working at a 141 school.

Edited February 8, 2007 by flyby_heli

[joker]

Flyby

 

This sounds like a perfectly sound way of progressing a student. I don't know why you think you'll get a slating here.

 

My first thought was about a legal implication of sending a student solo knowing that they weren't 100% competent. Then I decided that this was ok so long as the limitations were made clear in their endorsement, and you were happy that they could act 100% competently within those boundries. I presume this is what you do, and you have to re-endorse that student for normal (full) flight.

 

Actually, while not in two distinct parts, I too always started the first solo with basic hover skills. If the student was happy (after say 5 mins), I send them off for a pattern.

 

Just a question... do you count 16hrs for their first pattern or just for their first 'hover solo' session?

 

John90210 I have to admit that I'M not quite sure of the point you were making in your last post.

 

Joker

Edited February 8, 2007 by joker

[flyby_heli]

Joker.

 

I do have to sign them two endorsements with their limitations. The number of hours i mentioned was for their first normal flight in the pattern.

[zcat]

I'm curious to know an average number of hours needed to solo. Like hovering, I know it probably depends partially on the student--I'm just looking for a good average for the average pilot.

To answer my own question--13.

 

z

[zemogman]

I solo'd after 3 hours...

 

In the "Fly It" simulator of course!

 

LOL

[Pogue]

I'm sure none will admit to that, but money is always lurking around somewhere, and denying that is simply dishonest. It might not be the primary motivation, but it's still a motivation.

Gomer, if we were only talking getting the Private license I'd be more inclined to agree with you, at least to some degree. But I'm looking at 300 hours to be insurable as a CFI, and it really doesn't matter at what point the solo happens. In my case I wasn't good enough at autos at 20 hours to solo so we went on with the program and when I did solo at 60 I had already gotten slopes, pinnacles & confined areas to standard. (We just postponed the solo to the cross country stage.) Now, I'm old and a slow learner but even so I don't feel like I spent money that I shouldn't have. I see one of the fundamental differences between civilian schools and the military as being the military makes an effort to weed people out. Even when demand for helicopter pilots in the military is high, the demand for grunts is higher. Civilian schools are focused on getting the student through, and as a result will spend time (and the students money) on students where the military wouldn't.

[dlo22]

I could not agree more with both gomer and flyby heli, Fly bye heli, I think that is the best idea for soloing a student to hover only first, this is an extreme boost of confidence and I only wish that my instructor had did that with me, instead of waiting and wondering what was wrong with me. I didn't know this was possible if you fly in the r22. is it. can you sign a student off to hover only before 20 hours???? I think you have the best way of soloing a student and helping them progress as fast as possible. I really like that idea and think other schools should follow this format......

 

Gomer pylot brings up a very good point, about the whole money drives the market and the world. You cant' tell me it has not crossed the helicopter schools mind that the longer it takes for the student to get his rating, the more money they make... this is so true, and is not usually an insult to the bigger flight schools with more power and never usually the flight instructors...... I actually do not think their are that many corrupt flight instructors out thier. but their are some. I even know of one for sure. who does not get alot of hours at a small school and knows that the longer he takes with them, the more money he makes and faster he builds his flight hours... I have found a two schools now, both of which are very small and only one flight instructor operations. Most of the time, the owner has a close eye on what is going on and can make up school rules and policies as they wish to benifit the flight school... you can all say this is false and that you would never do this, but I have seen it. I have also witnessed an instuctor, who is struggling to make his bills and building flight time very slowly, say that the school has this rule and you cannot solo without me on the flight deck. or the school says you can only fly with 7 knt wind. then the rule seemed to change to 10...... I have also seen the instuctor tell other students, that he wants to make damn sure that they are ready for thier check ride before he sends them into the examiner. so he will not sign them off till he feels they are ready... and from what I have seen, the student was more than ready, and then low and behold, the flight instructor will come up with some stupid excuse or example about how they need to work a little longer on slope operations, or settling with power.

 

I am not trying to say that every flight school or every flight instructor is this way, cause most are not and especially with the bigger operations.... but when the flight instructor has all of the say, and he is hurting for students, money and flight hours, there will always be a drive for him to get more hours and money by making up false rules and regulations, to make it seem as if he is watching out for the student, but in reality he is only watching out for his paycheck...... one example is whenever I want to solo the heli by myself, my flight instructor used to always make excuses about the clouds, wind shear, wind and whatever else he could... He would say,, the weather is a little too poor right now for you to fly, the school rules say this .... But, if you wanna go up with me, we can do it ,, just to keep up on your progress and further you autorotation skills.... I used to get so angry, cause I knew this was the case. Then I used to listen to him tell another student with 50 hours or so...... I want to make sure you know all of your stuff, before I send you in with this examiner,,, this examiner is the hardest one I have ever seen... and so on. He used to tell his student he was not ready on stuff he had previously told him he was more than ready on.... These are just example I have seen personally from a flight school, that I don't think is even in business anymore....

 

Like gomer said, money is always lurking around in the picture some where and it is no secret to know that the longer it takes for a student to get through, and get his rating. the more money the flight school and instructor will make......... believe it or not, its the truth is some cases.......

[fallguy]

Z

 

My school has a policy of no solo's till 20 hrs. minimum. I thought this was the standard?

 

Anyway, they said I was ready at 20, I felt ready at 22, but my instructor was too busy to schedule for a solo. He was the schools' only CFII and also flew Sky9, so meeting up with him was a bit tough.

 

In the mean time, I kept flying with a couple other CFI's. Mr. X was a hard-ass and really pushed my skills and intimidated me when I needed it. Mr. Y was really encouraging and inspiring when I flew well, and patient when I didn't.

 

From 20 - 26 I moved on to advanced maneuvers with other CFI's, like slopes and shallow run-on's. By the time I hooked up with my regular instructor, Mr. Z, I felt much better solo'ing with the new maneuvers and skills I learned.

 

Mr. X, Y, and Z were all great instructors, and each brought something to the table I needed. In the end, having 3 dudes tell me I was ready to solo helped. Experiencing 3 teaching styles also helped.

 

Good Luck

 

NK

 

By the way, Mr. Z said he solo'd at 36 hrs

[zcat]

fallguy,

I imagine you're in an R-22, correct? I believe you have to have 20 to solo in that. I was in the 300C, which has no such requirement. I tend to agree--if you're going all the way to commercial, it probably doesn't really matter how long it takes (up to a point). As for me, I reached my goal of soloing, so I'm done for now.

 

I also flew with 3 different instructors (all of whom are high-time prior military IPs). I had a similar exprience to yours--each one had different communication and teaching styles, and it ended up being very helpful to have the same basic things coming at slightly different angles.

 

z

[fatnlazy]

I had my primary in a TH-55, 3rd hr to hvr, 15th hr to solo, 40 hrs checkride.

[hh60fe]

I'm getting ready to make the leap and start training after I retire from the Air Force... Although I have over 1500 hours logged in a helicopter its as a flight engineer and not a pilot... So I have the basic concept but I've only been at the controls maybe .3 of that time... although a couple of hours flying around in the sim down at Kirtland... I do have my PPL F/W which I solo'd at 6.5hrs and took my checkride at 40.7. I'm hoping my rotary add-on and follow on ratings come as easy but I'm sure not as cheap... Total bill for the PPL F/W was 2800 and change if I remember right... back in '01. And six years later I have 49.7 hrs logged... Not much flying for fun in OEF/OIF...

 

Bravo

[sticktime]

I think the instructor has more to do than one might think. At blue ridge in Lawrenceville GA average is to hvr, 4 to 6 hr's, At Aquila in FLA it is about 10to12.

[lwalling]

I am going to solo around the minimum 20 in an R44, I think. Maybe another 5 hours beyond that at the worst I think.

 

I have not been really pushing to solo at a specific time, trying to have a good time flying around and also having absolute confidence in my capabilities with pickups, setdowns, and emergency procedures, while other areas I am reasonably happy with. I don't think a specific time matters, and I think that anyone that gets out the door in a really small amount of time is probably a threat to themselves and others. Granted, Robinsons require a minimum of 20 hours regardless.

 

I am quite adept at picking up concepts and translating those concepts into real motions to operate the aircraft, however, theres a hell of a lot to learn factoring in everything from the basics of radio communication and navigation to aircraft operation such as picking up, setting down, hovering, taking off, quick stops, approaches, patterns, autos, etc. Coordinating all the controls in unison will take some time for everyone, even rocket scientists .

 

I flew with my instructor today literally all day today morning until evening, so much so that the bubble-magnifying glass canopy hooked me up with a pretty good sunburn! It's a blast though. I've been splitting up my time due to maintenance issues and scheduling in the schools Astro and Raven - huge difference in flying them both for me.

[FULL TOUCH DOWN]

I soloed at the minimum time required and was training with guys that had more hours than me but had not soloed yet. So I asked my instructor why and the answer I got wasn't what I expected. Communication was the problem they all fly well but would not talk on the radio. He said it doesn’t matter how well you perform if you won’t talk you wont solo. Yes at first I found it difficult to talk even though flying was much harder. In the beginning the cfi would have to twist my arm to talk and now it’s just comes easy.

[rowekmr]

What is different about the military system?

 

Joe

 

Personally, 11 hrs to solo in the Huey. But the military system is a bit different from the civil world.

 

In the civvy world, I have had students usually solo around the 20 hour mark, but one lawyer took 70 hours. A retired 747 pilot, with 20,000 hrs and 700 hrs as a PVT pilot in his own H500, had to go right back to basics for the R22, and he tossed it in at my recommendation after 20 hrs, deciding he could never make it to CPL level. He was too used to giving orders and could not fly, navigate, make radio calls, and make operational decisions, on his own.

[Hovergirl]

Sounds like there is an incredible range of times for the first solo. I for one am going to be near the top end I have been doing a lot of maneuvers with Instructor X, slope landings, running landings and takeoffs and of course autos, and we both figured at around 45 hours that I was ready. I'm flying Part 141 and so I need a pre-solo stage check with another instructor. I studied like mad for the oral part, aced it, and exhausted myself. Then Instructor Y gets in the helicopter with me and he is a LOT heavier than instructor X. All my muscle memory goes out the window and what I thought was neutral is now forward, what I thought was aft will not slow me down much at ALL and I'm going around, going around, going around...all way too fast.

 

So I haven't soloed yet, but I'm philosophical about it. I'm going for at least 200 hours (to be CFI in the R22), and I have a newfound respect for CG. Wish me luck in about 10 days, after I have a few more lessons with weights stuck under the seat

 

HVG

[kodoz]

I'm on the high end too, but our school's pre-solo training includes autorotations, emergency procedures training, and solid radio communications. No worries...it'll all work out in the next 160 hrs.

[lockedcj7]

This topic gets re-hashed often and I can understand why. At more than $200/hr, we are right to wonder if we're doing it fast enough or if someone is taking advantage of us. Most of us are competitive and we want to think we are "the best" or at least, "better than so-and-so".

 

The problem is that there are many variables that can influence how long it takes to solo, many of which are not under the control of the student or the instructor. I soloed at around 35 hours and there are some good reasons for that. Our field is a relatively busy class D where the controllers insisted on making us fly the same patterns as the Cessnas. For that reason, we flew to a nearby field that was less busy and we could get basically whatever we requested. 10-15 minutes of each lesson was spent on the transition. I got lots of straight-and-level and radio practice but that doesn't help much when you need to work on other skills.

 

5+ hours of X-C time got counted in there because I got to hitch a ride on ferry flights. It was basically free time and I'll take all of that I can get but I'm not going to count it against myself. It was valuable experience but it did little to get me closer to soloing.

 

I also switched from an R-22 to a Schweitzer and back. Each different aircraft adds time since you naturally have to get used to the way different aircraft handle and the differences in systems. During that 35 hours, I also switched instructors. At least an hour was spent with the new instructor evaluating where I was in terms of progress. The new guy was also younger and I was the first student he sent up solo. He was naturally cautious, perhaps overly so but we practiced emergency procedures until I was confident with them and that's never a bad thing.

 

I wasted at least 2 hours flying when I wasn't over a cold, but I insisted that I was "okay". I learned a valuable lesson about flying when you aren't 100% but it's still time in the logbook before I soloed. I wasted at least another hour trying to fly two lessons in one day. The first one was fine, the other one made me struggle and it hurt my confidence, which hurt me on subsequent lessons.

 

Several of these factors were my fault, some were due to instructors and the rest were either no-fault or operational in nature. The point is that there are too many variables to count and it's silly to compare yourself to some arbitrary standard or to another student. The point is to be safe, proficient and employable which is going to take a lot more than 50 hours.

 

OTH, if you've looked at all the factors I mentioned, none of them apply and you're at 50 hours without soloing then I think you need to have a frank discussion with your instructor. You need, and deserve, an honest appraisal of your abilities, progress and chances for success.

Edited August 13, 2007 by lockedcj7

[Goldy]

Wish me luck in about 10 days, after I have a few more lessons with weights stuck under the seat

 

HVG

 

Hovergirl, at 245 lbs, I can upset any CG you might be used to ! And I'm available to sit left seat and take free helicopter rides ! Seriously, you should see me fly the R22 solo....I can make right turns really well...its the left ones that you have to work at !!

 

Get used to the attitude of the ship, just make sure you are lifting off straight up!

 

Good luck in your check rides... Goldy

[kodoz]

Hovergirl, at 245 lbs, I can upset any CG you might be used to ! And I'm available to sit left seat and take free helicopter rides ! Seriously, you should see me fly the R22 solo....I can make right turns really well...its the left ones that you have to work at !!

 

Get used to the attitude of the ship, just make sure you are lifting off straight up!

 

Good luck in your check rides... Goldy

 

Watch out HVG, next thing you know he'll be offering to pay you to take him on aerobatic flights in an R22 with an inoperative governor during known icing conditions!

[Goldy]

Watch out HVG, next thing you know he'll be offering to pay you to take him on aerobatic flights in an R22 with an inoperative governor during known icing conditions!

 

 

You mean its not supposed to be flying inverted ??

[kodoz]

You mean its not supposed to be flying inverted ??

 

Nope...students can't fly with passengers or for hire, and all the other flight conditions exceed the limitations specified in the POH, right? I thought you were testing her.

[Witch]

You think solo is bad, wait 'till you get your private at 160 hours!

 

Later