Alternative to flight schools(what do you think?)

[shuvelhead]

It blows my mind on how much it cost these days for flight school. And what blows my mind even more is how people are getting ripped off, pay thousands of dollars and have nothing to show for it except a $500.00-$1000.00 monthly student loan. I have been thinking about buying a R-22 and financing it by training students, but my problem with this is that it will cost an arm and a leg and the cost would be transfered to the student. So me and a fellow pilot have come up with an idea that I think would benifit not only us but also the student. The idea is to get ten to fifteen people together that want to get there commercial license and build flight time. Each would invest around $10,000.00 to $15,000.00 and would be a part owner of the helicopter. We would supply the training and also be cwners. That's the basic idea. All the expenses would be split by ten or fifteen people(maintenance, hanger fees, insurance, etc...). Fuel would be paid for by who ever takes out the helicopter. And after you get 1000 hours you could be bought out by someone new. Well that's my idea, let me know what you guys think. We're thinking about the Orlando area for starts.

[rich00]

I'm also curious as to the cost of such a program. A previous poster talked of buying a trainer and paying a cfi to reach his goals. Is this a feasible goal? Might it be cost effective in the end? Where is a good place to look for helos for sale, there aren't many here that fit the bill. Florida is a long ways away otherwise I'd buy in. Thanks

[tristate77]

what about overhauls? would all 10 people pitch in for that?

[fry]

So me and a fellow pilot have come up with an idea that I think would benifit not only us but also the student. The idea is to get ten to fifteen people together that want to get there commercial license and build flight time. Each would invest around $10,000.00 to $15,000.00 and would be a part owner of the helicopter.

 

Most two-party partnerships fail due to disagreements between the partners. How would you manage "ten to fifteen people" who all want to fly on the weekend? Pilots have been proposing this sort of plan since the Wright brothers did rock-paper-sissors for who would be the pilot at Kitty Hawk.

[dav]

Do you have an idea how much the expenses would cost, after the buy in?? Sounds like a good idea, but you have to make sure the people that buy in know exactly what's going on from the begining, to avoid any miscommunication. You are right about these schools that just ripp students off.

[dlo]

sounds like a good idea on paper, but their would be many problems that arise with that many people all being equal owners, I see how it could work in the perfect situation, but in most situations , I dont believe it would be easy or fair. everyone wants to pay less and fly more. and what would happen when overhaul comes around. if you had 14 equal owners, that would mean that each owner would get the helicopter for exactly one day each two weeks or one half day each week..

 

It does sound possible and sounds like it coiuld work, but who would train the pilots, would this cfi be available every hour for weeks on end, and what happens with the insurance and each 100 hour inspection... their are just alot of variables that would have to be worked out.... I really wish it was possible and I could get myself into a part ownership with maybe five people total.. keep us posted on the plan and how it would work.............

[shuvelhead]

Do you have an idea how much the expenses would cost, after the buy in?? Sounds like a good idea, but you have to make sure the people that buy in know exactly what's going on from the begining, to avoid any miscommunication. You are right about these schools that just ripp students off.

 

If we have ten people the buy in would be $15,000.00. Then $250.00 a month for Maintenance, insurance and hanger. Fuel and any instruction cost would be paid by who ever flys the bird. These numbers aren't set yet, we're still figuring it out. The idea is to get people to 1000 hrs and have a commercial ticket.

[delorean]

There is no way you would get that many people to agree on rates, rules, etc. Anything over two and you're going to run into problems. A 2-person partnership can at least split up the schedule every other weekend.

 

A better idea, get that many people to INVEST in a helicopter, form a LLP with it, then lease it back to a school. The partners would get a reduced rate and preference over non-partners. The school would be in charge of handling all the scheduling, mx, insurance, etc in exchange for keeping that helicopter on their flight line and making "x" amount of comission/profit for each hour flown. A little bit better alternative of a bad idea.

 

Just rent for now. Trust me, you don't ever want students in YOUR helicopter (including yourself). Make all the hard landings, overspeeds, etc. in someone else's helicopter. Buy your own after you've gotten through that phase.

[AlexanderAir]

Most students dont have 10-15k to put into an R22. If they do it is a student loan and you cant take that money and buy an R22 with it. Also most students dont have 250 a month, plus their fuel etc..... Another thing is when I checking out schools, I wanted to know the "Student to helicopter ratio," 15 students to one R22 and everybody trying to build ratings and the same time? I would be gone, thats not a good ratio for me. Just some thoughts!

[PA Pilot]

I did my helicopter add-on in an R22 which five of us got together and bought (3 years old, 400 TT). Two guys already had their PP-RH, three of us got our add-ons in that ship. We bought the ship for roughly $150K. We assess all pilots for fixed costs -- annuals, insurance, etc. (the ship lives in a hangar belonging to one of the partners at no cost). We then charge $100/hour wet to fly it.

 

In three years we've never had any hassles in the partnership (which is a corporation).

 

I am also a partner in an LLC which bought a new Raven II last september. This is a somewhat different structure. Since we financed the ship, each of the four partners is assessed monthly dues which cover the financing, insurance, and hangaring the ship. Usage is charged at $200/hr wet. We've had no difficulties with this one either -- not surprising because three of the four partners are also partners in the R22, and the fourth guy is also an old friend.

 

The guy who put together the R22 deal is ATP and CFII rated in helicopters and fixed wing. He charged us $20/hour for primary instruction, and we trade him stick time for instruction in the two helicopters for recurrant training.

 

I'm not sure this arrangement would work for most people -- you need to be able to trust your partners, and be able to get along. But, it's worked great for us...

[dlo22]

I am also a partner in an LLC which bought a new Raven II last september. This is a somewhat different structure. Since we financed the ship, each of the four partners is assessed monthly dues which cover the financing, insurance, and hangaring the ship. Usage is charged at $200/hr wet. We've had no difficulties with this one either -- not surprising because three of the four partners are also partners in the R22, and the fourth guy is also an old friend.

 

sounds like your first deal worked out well for you and I think you are right on about needing to be friends with your partners and having to trust them. also the smaller the amount of owners, I would think the less conflicts that arise. but now you said you bought into a raven 2 for 200 dollars an hour. now that I read the name again I understand and this sounds like another awsome deal. I thought at first you bought into a beta 2 at 200 per hour and I didn't see the benefit in that. Like they said, ten to fifteen people would just be too many people and that would mean the heli would have to last 10,000 to fifteen thousand hours with multiple overhauls and many other maintenence issues to have everyone reach their 1,000 hour mark, and could you imagine how long it would take and how many scheduling conflicts there would be...

[Autorotator]

If we have ten people the buy in would be $15,000.00. Then $250.00 a month for Maintenance, insurance and hanger. Fuel and any instruction cost would be paid by who ever flys the bird. These numbers aren't set yet, we're still figuring it out. The idea is to get people to 1000 hrs and have a commercial ticket.

 

Two people getting 1000 hours each on the helicopter would put 2000 hours on it. If you fly the Robinson, that will leave 200 hours until overhaul time. just a though.

[jehh]

It blows my mind on how much it cost these days for flight school.

 

Has it occurred to you that flight school costs what it does for a reason? Most flight schools are happy with a 10% profit margin. At best, you might save 20% over what they charge, once it is all said and done.

 

The idea is to get ten to fifteen people together that want to get there commercial license and build flight time. Each would invest around $10,000.00 to $15,000.00 and would be a part owner of the helicopter. We would supply the training and also be cwners. That's the basic idea. All the expenses would be split by ten or fifteen people(maintenance, hanger fees, insurance, etc...). Fuel would be paid for by who ever takes out the helicopter. And after you get 1000 hours you could be bought out by someone new. Well that's my idea, let me know what you guys think. We're thinking about the Orlando area for starts.

 

It costs about $100/hr to operate a R-22, including 100-hour inspections, fuel, and overhaul reserve. Then you have aircraft payment, insurance, hanger, etc.

 

At $100/hr, it will cost $100,000 to buy 1,000 hours of flight time, not to mention the other costs involved. For 10 people to build that much time, you're going to put 10,000 hours on the helicopter, which will require 4 overhauls, each one takes about 3 months, so add a year to the 5 year total. 10,000 hours, flying 2,000 hours a year, will take 5 years to accomplish. At 2,000 hours a year, you'll have to fly the helicopter 167 hours a month, or 5.5 hours a day, to build that much time. Each pilot would fly 16.6 hours per month, or about every 3 days.

 

So what are you going to do for the next 6 years while you build 1,000 hours? Build 1,000 hours of bad habits is what... And your source of money during this time would be? You'll need $1,660 a month just to pay for the flight time, not counting any surprise expenses, hanger, or insurance.

 

As someone else said, pilots have been trying to figure out how to do this on the cheap for a long time, it costs what it costs...

[zemogman]

I agree with several posters...good idea...BUT...try to get 10 to 15 people to agree on anything.

 

[mechanic]

Hey,

Have you thought about a non profit club? Texas A&M has a club of this type.

 

Flying Aggies, clik the club benefits and prices tabs..

 

Later