AK1-3 Flight Report

[mrose]

To all;

 

Here is the latest from AeroKopter Ukraine after 7 years development. First ship will be in the US by August or sooner. You can expect a larger version in a year. We will fit a US engine in the next 12 months on the road to certification.

 

Comments appreciated.

 

Kind Regards to all - MROSE

 

www.ptarmigan-heli.com/2007report.pdf

[brushfire21]

Curious how bad the numbers will look if a certificated engine is installed..... I have said it before, I like the looks of it. I think its an upgraded version of the 300 personally! If we look at what we talked about about whats included in a perfect trainer, this has some of those items. Any idea on US cost for this thing?

[darwin]

brushfire21,

 

What numbers will look bad if a cert engine is installed? Price tag perhaps?

Is there an alternative to a cert engine? Cert a "new" engine?

 

Thanks.

[mrose]

Curious how bad the numbers will look if a certificated engine is installed..... I have said it before, I like the looks of it. I think its an upgraded version of the 300 personally! If we look at what we talked about about whats included in a perfect trainer, this has some of those items. Any idea on US cost for this thing?

 

Brushfire,

 

Thanks for your comments. +80lbs with the deisel. 80lbs won't shut this bird down much, they have a factory spray system that puts the gross up 132lbs and she flys fine. With the diesel fuel economy will be up 30% so that much less load for a training block. I may be tasked with the engine part of this, they emailed me last week to that effect. That Subaru grows on you though, I didn't think it would be that way. All the pilots there feel the same, it is smooth like a little turbine. They have so much history with that motor so maybe this will be a sport heli for a while or both kit and cert. version. It is more Alouette than 300. The 269 series belt drive has changed little in 35 years. This one is solid, no tinker after thought fixit's. Not to cut a 300 (of which I am a fan) but this ship is more stable, I didn't have to fly it much, and it goes when you nose over. They are $155K Ex Ukriane for now ready to fly. I am working with them on the kit issue. There are some big outfits after this company so everthing could change.

 

Regards

Mark

[brushfire21]

brushfire21,

 

What numbers will look bad if a cert engine is installed? Price tag perhaps?

Is there an alternative to a cert engine? Cert a "new" engine?

 

Thanks.

 

What I meant is, that the Subaru is probably a lighter weight engine (not performace wise, but actual weight), then say a Lycoming 360 that is powering the R22/S300 series. With having to put in a cert. engine, the weight will probably go up, reducing the weight capacity and fuel burned will increase, needing additional fuel (weight) possibly.

 

The diesel would help offset this difference more so than the Lycoming possibly in the fuel savings and tank size.

[mechanic]

I think I posted this, but I will again. I don't know why the heli companies are not trying to utilize the Centurion 2.0 Diesel?

 

Wikipedia

 

Article from Centurions webpage.

Jul. 26, 2006

America´s largest flying school becomes fleet customer Hamburg/Oshkosh – The German company Thielert Aircraft Engines GmbH, a subsidiary of the public listed corporation Thielert AG, today announced at EAA AirVenture in Oshkosh the signing of a deal with a new fleet customer. The aircraft of the most prestigious North American flying school "American Flyers" are being equipped with immediate effect with the state-of-the-art Centurion jet fuel piston engines. American Flyers has over 55 training aircraft. It is initially planning to convert all aircraft of the type Cessna 172. The first US Cessna 172 equipped with Centurion 1.7 jet fuel engine is displayed in Oshkosh on booth #167/168 (Superior/Thielert).

 

Frank Thielert, Managing Director of Thielert Aircraft Engines GmbH, presented the certificate in person on July 26, 2006 and symbolically a Centurion glass cube to American Flyers proprietors Clark McCormack, President and David Huser and Rick Freidinger, Vice-Presidents. "We are proud to have this opportunity to equip one of the best and largest flying schools in North America with our Centurion jet fuel engines", said Frank Thielert. "With the Centurion engines, American Flyers is deliberately opting for a fuel-efficient and easy-to-operate diesel engine that runs on jet fuel", continued Thielert.

 

American Flyers can lay claim to some 67 years of experience in the training of pilots. It employs 350 persons at 13 sites, who have more than 250,000 flying hours' experience. To date, over 100,000 pilots have been trained by American Flyers and have received their FAA certificate. American Flyer has 55 training aircraft of the type Cessna 172, which can be converted with the Centurion jet fuel engines. Epic Aviation, Inc., located in New Smyrna Beach, FL, a distributor for Thielert engines for Central and South America partnered with Thielert and American Flyers on the sale and installation of the first conversion displayed at Oshkosh.

 

Thielert is already successfully marketing its Centurion engines in two output classes to various flying schools right across Europe, Africa and China. American Flyers is the first flying school in North America. The FAA type certification for the installation of the Centurion 1.7 in the model series of the Cessna 172 was awarded as far back as January 31, 2005. Further FAA type certifications for the Robin DR 400 and Diamond DA40 will be awarded before the end of the year. The FAA type certification for the installation of the powerful 350 hp Centurion 4.0 in the Cessna 206, 340, 414 and 421 is planned for the coming year. "This will enable the students of the flying school to experience the feeling of flying a jet from the outset", says Thielert.

 

Centurion Engines

[mrose]

I think I posted this, but I will again. I don't know why the heli companies are not trying to utilize the Centurion 2.0 Diesel?

 

Wikipedia

 

Article from Centurions webpage.

Jul. 26, 2006

America´s largest flying school becomes fleet customer Hamburg/Oshkosh – The German company Thielert Aircraft Engines GmbH, a subsidiary of the public listed corporation Thielert AG, today announced at EAA AirVenture in Oshkosh the signing of a deal with a new fleet customer. The aircraft of the most prestigious North American flying school "American Flyers" are being equipped with immediate effect with the state-of-the-art Centurion jet fuel piston engines. American Flyers has over 55 training aircraft. It is initially planning to convert all aircraft of the type Cessna 172. The first US Cessna 172 equipped with Centurion 1.7 jet fuel engine is displayed in Oshkosh on booth #167/168 (Superior/Thielert).

 

Frank Thielert, Managing Director of Thielert Aircraft Engines GmbH, presented the certificate in person on July 26, 2006 and symbolically a Centurion glass cube to American Flyers proprietors Clark McCormack, President and David Huser and Rick Freidinger, Vice-Presidents. "We are proud to have this opportunity to equip one of the best and largest flying schools in North America with our Centurion jet fuel engines", said Frank Thielert. "With the Centurion engines, American Flyers is deliberately opting for a fuel-efficient and easy-to-operate diesel engine that runs on jet fuel", continued Thielert.

 

American Flyers can lay claim to some 67 years of experience in the training of pilots. It employs 350 persons at 13 sites, who have more than 250,000 flying hours' experience. To date, over 100,000 pilots have been trained by American Flyers and have received their FAA certificate. American Flyer has 55 training aircraft of the type Cessna 172, which can be converted with the Centurion jet fuel engines. Epic Aviation, Inc., located in New Smyrna Beach, FL, a distributor for Thielert engines for Central and South America partnered with Thielert and American Flyers on the sale and installation of the first conversion displayed at Oshkosh.

 

Thielert is already successfully marketing its Centurion engines in two output classes to various flying schools right across Europe, Africa and China. American Flyers is the first flying school in North America. The FAA type certification for the installation of the Centurion 1.7 in the model series of the Cessna 172 was awarded as far back as January 31, 2005. Further FAA type certifications for the Robin DR 400 and Diamond DA40 will be awarded before the end of the year. The FAA type certification for the installation of the powerful 350 hp Centurion 4.0 in the Cessna 206, 340, 414 and 421 is planned for the coming year. "This will enable the students of the flying school to experience the feeling of flying a jet from the outset", says Thielert.

 

Centurion Engines

 

Mechanic -

 

I started with Thielert but they were to busy to answer my questions or even take or return a phone call. I cancelled with them for the AK1. At any rate the Delta Hawk folks are much more interactive and will have a better product at the end of the day. The Deltahawk has a better power to weight, 1/2 the moving parts and no FADEC. It is currently installed and flying in a helicopter with more on order for this use. It is also an aircraft engine from the ground up. Their chief engineer is a Huey pilot and knows my challenges. They recently had a powwow with all the FAA powers and have set a certification course. Remember, Thielert is a traded company so you will see these big promotions.

 

Finally a new US motor.

 

Thanks for your comments -

 

MROSE

[mechanic]

Buy looking at their website, it is pretty clear they are in a fixed wing mindset..

[FinR]

and will have a better product at the end of the day. The Deltahawk has a better power to weight, 1/2 the moving parts and no FADEC.

Now there's an interesting comment..

 

Could you please explain a little more detailed why the company that has sold about 3 engines has a better product than the company that has sold hundreds, maybe already thousands of engines? How is it better but not even certified than the one that is certified and put in use in multible aircraft types around the world already? What's wrong with Fadec, haven't heard of any Fadec failures in Thielert's engines...??

 

Deltahawk people may have more time because their production has not even started. It's still an experimental engine and it will take a decade for them to get even close to the level that Thielert already are. You sure are right Mr. Rose, they don't have time to deal with everybody, i've heard same kind of comments from elsewhere too. They have more than enough work with the big customers and certifications/ STC's that they already have.

 

Good luck with your engine choice.

Edited May 7, 2007 by FinR

[mrose]

Now there's an interesting comment..

 

Could you please explain a little more detailed why the company that has sold about 3 engines has a better product than the company that has sold hundreds, maybe already thousands of engines? How is it better but not even certified than the one that is certified and put in use in multible aircraft types around the world already? What's wrong with Fadec, haven't heard of any Fadec failures in Thielert's engines...??

 

Deltahawk people may have more time because their production has not even started. It's still an experimental engine and it will take a decade for them to get even close to the level that Thielert already are. You sure are right Mr. Rose, they don't have time to deal with everybody, i've heard same kind of comments from elsewhere too. They have more than enough work with the big customers and certifications/ STC's that they already have.

 

Good luck with your engine choice.

 

FinR

 

I think there may be some missunderstanding here, they have 3 engines out for helicopters, not total. I don't think it will be a decade before Deltahawk gets traction, their timeline is months not years at this point. I am enthusiastic for a new US motor in general with parts and support Stateside. As far as failures go, I am glad the Thielert appears to be a good motor, but I think the Deltahawk folks are very serious and have a next gen. design. Simpler aways wins. Having competition will keep both of them on their toes and pricing fair. One thing is for sure, the Deltahawk has a flatline 160 HP rating to 13,000+ft and costs 10K less, the Theilert 8500 and is 135HP.

 

Hope I didn't offend anyone - wasn't my intention, tring to keep a positive spirit.

 

MROSE

[500E]

ANY Co. that is to busy to take or return calls is suspect in my book, the work force is either over stretched or not bothered, don't know which is worse! .

A manufacturer that ignores a potential customer is gifting them to the competition, they look around for an alternative, all ready badmouthing the original Co. this will leave a lasting impresion in other peoples minds and if they get the same response the cycle grows.

If they are to busy to return calls what about SERVICE!! there are all ready others in the aero industry that lost the plot regarding customer service\contact.

The way we deal with Excess interest is either to ramp up the production, or at least explain to potential customers that the production facility is at full stretch, and we are looking to increase supply,without quality suffering, this way the customer feels that they are taken seriously.

[FinR]

MRose,

 

I don't think you offended anyone, not me at least. I'd love to see more diesels come to the market and put in use in helicopters!

 

I do understand your point of a US motor. It's just sad to see that in this tiny world of aviation there's still space for national pride even today, long after the cold war and stuff. If i'd be in your shoes, i'd choose the best powerplant available, not the best one made in a certain country. Because in the end, you are paying for it with your dollars, not with your pride...

 

MD, I think that Thielert is doing the right thing. They've been growing fast lately and using all their resources for the commitments that they already have isn't a bad thing to do. At least they don't give promises that they can't keep....

 

There are other diesel engines in development too; SMA in france, Zoche in Germany... But at the moment it's Thielert who "owns" the market of aero-diesels.

[lwalling]

Does the market really need more 2 place piston helicopters? The R22 is an already proven and relatively inexpensive to own/operate.

 

What I want to see is more certificated 4 place piston helicopters, I like the R44's but the cost of purchasing one is pretty brutal for a private owner.