flying 2nd in command offshore in gom

[mattcob]

hello there!!

 

as a low time pilot with 600hrs i have just got a job flying a 2nd in command in gom, i am curious to know of any other pilots out there who have started the same way and how long it took them to be able to upgrade to pic, how does flight time work as 2pic, i can see that i still need another 400 hrs to be pic but what is an hour of flight time worth to me, when flying with another person who is qualified, and on average how long would you think it would take to get those hrs needed?????

 

my next question is are you allowed to work for a part 91 operation on your time off, or does part 135 mean time off is time off!!

 

thank you for any answers to my questions and look forward to your replies

 

 

blue skies

 

mattcob

[Gomer Pylot]

You can log as P time all the time you have the controls, and log the other time as SIC, which counts for total time. The PIC can also log all the time as PIC time, whether or not he is doing the flying, as long as the aircraft is certified for two pilots.

 

On your time off, you can do what you want, but you have to report all other commercial flying to your employer, because there are limits on the amount of flight hours per quarter and per year, and you can't be used as a Part 135 pilot if you exceed the limits. Commercial flying is any flying for which you are being paid, regardless of the part under which it is done. Your employer can't legally prevent you from doing other flying, but may fire you anyway, with only minor penalties if any, so read the policy manual.

[klmmarine]

Congratulations on the new job. What are you going to be flying?

[mattcob]

flying 2nd in command at phi in 206 long ranger, just waiting for my start date!!!!!

 

and thanks gomer for the info!

 

blue skies

 

mattcob

[Wally]

flying 2nd in command at phi in 206 long ranger, just waiting for my start date!!!!!

 

and thanks gomer for the info!

 

blue skies

 

mattcob

 

SIC in a 206?

[nbit]

flying 2nd in command at phi in 206 long ranger, just waiting for my start date!!!!!

 

and thanks gomer for the info!

 

blue skies

 

mattcob

SIC in a 206L?

I want to hear this too...

[Gomer Pylot]

Exxon has decided that it's safer to have two pilots in a 206. They have so much money they have to spend it on something.

 

A 206 does not require two pilots, so in that only the pilot at the controls can log the time. It remains to be seen how this is going to turn out. With two pilots, a 206 can carry one, maybe two pax, unless the platforms are very close in, and they are near Exxon's Grand Isle base.

[nbit]

Exxon has decided that it's safer to have two pilots in a 206. They have so much money they have to spend it on something.

 

A 206 does not require two pilots, so in that only the pilot at the controls can log the time. It remains to be seen how this is going to turn out. With two pilots, a 206 can carry one, maybe two pax, unless the platforms are very close in, and they are near Exxon's Grand Isle base.

 

So, only *PIC* at the controls can be logged... In which case, in so far as how long it will take for mattcob to accumulate the additional 400 hours he needs to hit the magic 1000 hours - how does his question get answered?

 

Does it depend on the high time pilot, and how much time he/she *allows* the "SIC" to fly? Does the "SIC" fly every other leg? When I have flown part 135 in two pilot aircraft in the past, both systems of getting PIC time for the copilot/SIC were used.

[500pilot]

So, only *PIC* at the controls can be logged... In which case, in so far as how long it will take for mattcob to accumulate the additional 400 hours he needs to hit the magic 1000 hours - how does his question get answered?

 

Does it depend on the high time pilot, and how much time he/she *allows* the "SIC" to fly? Does the "SIC" fly every other leg? When I have flown part 135 in two pilot aircraft in the past, both systems of getting PIC time for the copilot/SIC were used.

 

Here in the corporate world the SIC flys the deadhead leg and the PIC fly's the "live" legs with PAX. Of course the SIC can log total time for the flight but can only log PIC when at the controls. The captain can log PIC for the entired flight.

[nbit]

Here in the corporate world the SIC flys the deadhead leg and the PIC fly's the "live" legs with PAX. Of course the SIC can log total time for the flight but can only log PIC when at the controls. The captain can log PIC for the entired flight.

Yeah, I am familiar with that model for logging flight time too in part 91 and 135... But the aircraft, Bell 206L, is only certified for one pilot, so the "captain", in this case, should *not* be able to log PIC when the "copilot" is at the controls.

[KMWK]

Just curious what kind of hoops you have to jump through to get a SIC position? I'm old and rusty, need some left seat time to get back into the saddle. Any ideas?

 

 

Gary

[500pilot]

Yeah, I am familiar with that model for logging flight time too in part 91 and 135... But the aircraft, Bell 206L, is only certified for one pilot, so the "captain", in this case, should *not* be able to log PIC when the "copilot" is at the controls.

 

 

Actually our aircraft are single pilot aircraft but if you are operating as a two pilot operation on your 135 cert (i.e the contract requires you to have two pilots and your 135 cert says that you must fly two pilots which in your case it does) than the captain can log the entire flight as PIC and the cojo can log total time and PIC while he/she are at the controls. Of course the captain must have an ATP for this to work also as he is exercsing the privilages of his ATP cert.

[nbit]

Actually our aircraft are single pilot aircraft but if you are operating as a two pilot operation on your 135 cert (i.e the contract requires you to have two pilots and your 135 cert says that you must fly two pilots which in your case it does) than the captain can log the entire flight as PIC and the cojo can log total time and PIC while he/she are at the controls. Of course the captain must have an ATP for this to work also as he is exercsing the privilages of his ATP cert.

Thanks for the explanation

[Tweedles]

You can log as P time all the time you have the controls, and log the other time as SIC, which counts for total time. The PIC can also log all the time as PIC time, whether or not he is doing the flying, as long as the aircraft is certified for two pilots.

 

GP

 

For aircraft where a type rating is required, e.g. S-76, AW139, I was under the impression that one was limited to logging SIC unless type rated, Ref. 61.51(e)(1)(i).

 

I heard from a FW airline pilot that w/o the type rating the cojo was only allowed to log SIC even when he/she was the sole manipulator.

[Wally]

Just curious what kind of hoops you have to jump through to get a SIC position? I'm old and rusty, need some left seat time to get back into the saddle. Any ideas?

 

 

Gary

 

Gary, if you have an "employable" amount of PIC time, don't bother with an SIC slot. The minimums that a 135 operation has to give seem to bring guys up to speed. You won't be as good as you remember you were, but that's true no matter what.

 

400 hours was very nearly an average year of line PIC when I flew the GoM 10 years ago. Splitting that with a PIC, and it could conceivably take "mattcob" a couple years to accumulate another 400. On the other hand, most of the pros I know didn't get there by watching the paint dry...

[500pilot]

GP

 

For aircraft where a type rating is required, e.g. S-76, AW139, I was under the impression that one was limited to logging SIC unless type rated, Ref. 61.51(e)(1)(i).

 

I heard from a FW airline pilot that w/o the type rating the cojo was only allowed to log SIC even when he/she was the sole manipulator.

 

 

A S76 is not a type rated aircraft. I am not sure how the rule applis to a type rated a/c. 139, s61 etc

[KMWK]

Wally,

 

Here's my story in short form. Went about 6 or 7 years without flying at all. Got hired by a GOM company last Sep, after ground training got sent home for ten days because of not enough acft and only 1 instructor. During that time they decided to put all new hires on full salary and called us back in early Oct. None of the guys that stayed were done and for the entire 2 week hitch in Oct I flew 1.5. Went home for 2 weeks, came back for the Nov hitch and flew 3.0 in 2 weeks (during which time I developed a middle ear infection 2 days before the end of the hitch). Went home for 2 weeks and came back for the Dec hitch, flew .5 the first day back and was sent home to see my Doc because they felt the middle ear thing had not healed.

 

Some time between the Dec and Jan hitch, they took me off full time salary, would not return my calls or e-mails. I ended up resigning on Jan 1, 07.

 

Needless to say, the training program su@!ed and I'll never let that happen again. If you know of a great company with a good training program, I'm all ears and the bad one has been healed since Dec 06.

 

Thanks,

 

Gary

[Gomer Pylot]

An ATP is not required to log PIC time while the SIC is flying. You don't have to be type-rated to log P time while at the controls. You don't need a type rating to fly anything, and no type rating is required for any aircraft with a max gross weight of less than 12,500 lbs. For heavy aircraft, only the PIC is required to be type-rated. All this is laid out in the FARs.

 

As for how it's done in a 206, it's going to be up the the PIC, just as it is in every other aircraft. The PIC flies when he wants, and the SIC flies when allowed. The standard in the GOM is that the right seat flies outbound legs, and the left seat flies inbound, and the pilots swap seats every day. That's not set in stone, however, and it's up to the crew. I've flown with SICs who wanted to fly all the time, and I stayed in the left seat and let them, although I had to do the hard stuff, like land on pitching seismic boats and stuff like that. It's whatever gets worked out between the two pilots, and knowing the mindset of career 206 pilots, I wouldn't plan on doing much flying. It's hard to teach old dogs new tricks, and a guy that has been doing all the flying by himself for 30 years isn't going to be eager to change. The SIC is going to be ballast on many flights, so get used to it.

[Crusty Old Dude]

hello there!!

 

as a low time pilot with 600hrs i have just got a job flying a 2nd in command in gom, i am curious to know of any other pilots out there who have started the same way and how long it took them to be able to upgrade to pic, how does flight time work as 2pic, i can see that i still need another 400 hrs to be pic but what is an hour of flight time worth to me, when flying with another person who is qualified, and on average how long would you think it would take to get those hrs needed?????

 

my next question is are you allowed to work for a part 91 operation on your time off, or does part 135 mean time off is time off!!

 

thank you for any answers to my questions and look forward to your replies

blue skies

 

mattcob

Hey matt:

 

if you don't mind me asking, does PHI pay their customary $51K starting pay as SIC with those hours?

 

Let me know what kind of offer (doesn't have to be specific or you can PM me) you got with that.

 

Congrats!

[Crusty Old Dude]

An ATP is not required to log PIC time while the SIC is flying. You don't have to be type-rated to log P time while at the controls. You don't need a type rating to fly anything, and no type rating is required for any aircraft with a max gross weight of less than 12,500 lbs. For heavy aircraft, only the PIC is required to be type-rated. All this is laid out in the FARs.

Gomer:

 

I'm glad you're here and cool enough to answer all of these questions.

 

On ATP, do you have one, and did you get it while doing the bulk of your training? or did you obtain it later?

 

How important is ATP in GOM at this time? Is it something that you can easily "add on" later (easily being a relative term)?

[Gomer Pylot]

I got the ATP while working in the GOM. It's going to be a requirement, I think, for flying mediums, and it's a plus for small ships. You can add it on later, that isn't a problem. I would suggest getting the written out of the way after you get hired, at least. As long as you work for a 135 operator continuously, the written doesn't expire, so you can take the checkride whenever you want. Most of the GOM operators pay extra for an ATP, and are moving toward requiring it for all IFR PICs, so you need to get it eventually if you plan to work in the Gulf.

[Tweedles]

Oops on the S76, I was off by approx 800 lb.

 

An ATP is not required to log PIC time while the SIC is flying. You don't have to be type-rated to log P time while at the controls. You don't need a type rating to fly anything, and no type rating is required for any aircraft with a max gross weight of less than 12,500 lbs. For heavy aircraft, only the PIC is required to be type-rated. All this is laid out in the FARs.

 

OK, let's see if I'm following this:

 

"An ATP is not required to log PIC time while the SIC is flying."

 

I don't see it. I'd have to agree with 500pilot on this one. Here is 61.51(e):

 

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—

 

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;

 

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

 

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

 

(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

 

Para. (iii) tells me that the SIC is there to help on more complex aircraft, i.e. he can futz with the controls/radios if needed/asked. With two CPs on board the PIC-SIC responsibilities swap. Para. (2) gives the ATP the final authority throughout the flight.

 

"You don't have to be type-rated to log P time while at the controls."

 

If the aircraft requires a type rating you do. See the above reg. para. (i).

 

FAR 1.1 defines PIC as:

 

Pilot in command means the person who:

 

(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;

 

(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and

 

(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

 

"You don't need a type rating to fly anything, and no type rating is required for any aircraft with a max gross weight of less than 12,500 lbs."

 

True. But we are talking about logging not flying.

 

"For heavy aircraft, only the PIC is required to be type-rated."

 

Agreed, and said person is then the only one eligible to log PIC.

 

I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers. I separated the parts of your post, GP, just so I don't get confused. This subject always has/will cause me great confusion. If I'm misinterpretting this stuff please let me know.

 

Thanks,

Tweedles

[Helo-Pilot]

I have called and talked to PHI about this SIC 'program' and was told that SIC's will make less money than the PIC's. Not sure how much less, but definatly got the impression it was substantially less.

[Gomer Pylot]

61.51

 

...

 

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—

 

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;

 

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

 

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

 

Note, no mention of ATP. Sport, private, or commercial. If you are the PIC in an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required, either by type certificate or regs, you can log all the time as PIC, while the SIC logs P time. For instance, any aircraft which has 10 or more passenger seats installed requires two pilots if operated under Part 135, either IFR or VFR. In these aircraft, the PIC can log the entire flight as PIC, whether or not he touches the controls.

 

Logging P time is not the same thing as being the designated PIC. Those are completely separate issues, and have been explained by many FAA letters of explanation. You can fly, and log P time, whenever you are manipulating the controls. For instance, most PHI S92 SICs are not type-rated, because PHI won't pay for that, but they can still log all the time they are flying. Again, don't confuse logging P time and being the PIC. They are not the same thing.

Edited June 7, 2007 by Gomer Pylot

[Tweedles]

Cool, I think I'm starting to get it. Thank you for your time and patience, GP.

 

Tweedles