IFR question

[helonorth]

On the "other" helicopter site someone asked the very good question of how can we train instruments

in a helicopter not certified for IFR. It got ugly pretty quick. Someone finally came up with the answer:

FAA order 8700.1 But here's another question. Someone claimed that anyone can file an IFR plan if they are appropriately rated, (this is where it got ugly)

even if the aircraft is not certified for IFR, if they remain in VMC. Is this true? Are there any

sharp double eyes out there (or anyone else ) that can answer this? Thanks.

[apiaguy]

I would agree with that: you can file and fly in the "IFR" system VMC in a non IFR approved aircraft provided it has the equipment required per FAR91 and be legal.

 

like the flight in known icing debate...

[Goldy]

I would agree with that: you can file and fly in the "IFR" system VMC in a non IFR approved aircraft provided it has the equipment required per FAR91 and be legal.

 

like the flight in known icing debate...

 

 

Apia- agreed as long as you stay out of certain airspaces...ie, above FL18 ..is that what you were thinking ?

[joker]

Haha!

 

Was wondering how long it would be for this one to come around again...last time I debated this was about 2 years ago!

 

OK, just to fuel the debate further, I ask someone to quote the entries in the POH for R22 and Schwiezer 300 regarding flight in IMC or IFR.

 

Also, maybe someone can quote the instrument training requirements from the FAR.

 

I'm not at home, but will add to this further when I have my full set of resources.

 

Joker

[apiaguy]

Just goes to show that what aircraft manufacturers say in their POH's and on the type certificate can always be trumped by the FAA on interpretation.

Edited October 3, 2007 by apiaguy

[helonorth]

Why do they issue a special flight order for filing IFR for training, if it is not against the regs in

general? Everyone has an opinion on this, but is it spelled out anywhere in something from the

FAA? Joker, what conclusion did you come up with the last time this came up? Off to work.

[Superman]

IFR plan if they are appropriately rated, (this is where it got ugly)

even if the aircraft is not certified for IFR, if they remain in VMC. Is this true? Are there any

sharp double eyes out there (or anyone else ) that can answer this? Thanks.

 

I'm just going to post what I've looked up in the regs

 

most, if not all read "under IFR", not under "IMC"

 

61.3 PIC under IFR

( e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:

( 1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;

 

 

61.57 ( c ) Instrument experience

( c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph ( e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless within the preceding 6 calendar months, that person has:

 

61.65 ( d) Instrument rating requirements

(iv) For an instrument -- helicopter rating, instrument training specific to helicopters on cross-country flight procedures that includes at least one cross-country flight in a helicopter that is performed under IFR, and consists of--

(A) A distance of at least 100 nautical miles along airways or ATC-directed routing;

( An instrument approach at each airport; and

© Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems; and

 

91.205 Instruments and equipments

(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:

 

91.171 VOR Equipment check

(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft under IFR using the VOR system of radio navigation unless the VOR equipment of that aircraft--

(1) Is maintained, checked, and inspected under an approved procedure; or

(2) Has been operationally checked within the preceding 30 days, and was found to be within the limits of the permissible indicated bearing error set forth in paragraph ( or © of this section

 

91.411 Altimeter System Inspection

(a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled airspace under IFR unless--

[(1) Within the preceding 24 calendar months, each static pressure system, each altimeter instrument, and each automatic pressure altitude reporting system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with appendices E and F of part 43 of this chapter

 

To me it would appear that you need to be Instrument rated or have a CFII and the aircraft needs to be equiped and current for instrument flight to operate under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR flight plan). To operate under Instrument Meteorological conditions, the aircraft would need to be certified for instrument flight.

 

Joker?........

 

Fly Safe

Clark

[joker]

How can we train instruments in a helicopter not certified for IFR?

OK, it was a long time ago. The exact text of my previous debate on this matter I cannot find. Nor can I find my original resources.

 

However, it went back and forth; some guy saying that it was illegal, and me saying,"How can it be illegal? Everyone does it."

 

Eventually, I found / obtained letters from Schweizer and one from Robinson (wish I could find them again), stating that their POHs do not intend that flight training and flight testing on IFR flight plans are prohibited. They stress that the aircraft are not IMC rated though.

 

Still, I required to see an official text asserting that instrument training and testing on an IFR flight plan was OK. So I continued my search.

 

Finally, I found an entry in an FAA Order. That was what satisfied me.

 

Today, I have checked the FAA orders, and it seems that they have restructured the documents considerably. However, while not what I remembered, I have found the text (below), which appears to answer our question.

 

I think the source is FAA Order 8900-1 Chg 1 Volume 5 Chapter 2 Section 9 Para. 5 Sub.Para 439

 

5-439 USE OF AIRCRAFT NOT APPROVED FOR IFR OPERATIONS UNDER ITS TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR INSTRUMENT TRAINING AND/OR AIRMAN CERTIFICATION TESTING.

The following paragraphs are intended to clarify the use of an aircraft not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate for instrument flight training and/or airman certification testing.

 

A. IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91, sections (§§) 91.109, 91.205, and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, §§ 91.411 and 91.413.

 

An aircraft may be operated on an IFR flight plan under IFR in VMC, provided the PIC is properly certificated to operate the aircraft under IFR. However, if the aircraft is not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate, or if the appropriate instruments and equipment are not installed or are not operative, operations in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) are prohibited. The PIC of such an aircraft must cancel the IFR flight plan in use and avoid flight into IMC.

 

B. Type Certificate Data. Appropriate type certificate data will indicate whether the aircraft meets the requirements for IFR operations.

 

1) Section 91.9(a) prohibits aircraft operations without compliance with the operating limitations for that aircraft prescribed by the certificating authority.

 

2) Section 91.9( prohibits operation of a U.S.-registered aircraft requiring an airplane or rotorcraft flight manual unless it has on board a current and approved airplane or rotorcraft flight manual or approved manual material, markings, and placards containing each operating limitation prescribed for that aircraft.

 

This answers the other question whether anyone can file an IFR plan if they are appropriately rated.

 

As it says in A above (red text) yes, a person may file an IFR flight plan so long as the PIC is properly rated. In addition, if the aircraft is not certified by type certificate (or in compliance with the above quoted FARs, they must avoid IMC and if necessary cancel their IFR flight plan.

 

'IFR Approved' means more than simply operating under instrument flight rules. It means going into the soup too. If this makes sense to you, then it all becomes clear.

 

So when the R22 and S300 POHs say that, "IFR Flight Prohibited" or doesn't mention IFR flight at all (or whatever is actually said or implied), that's what they mean. The aircraft does not meet ALL the standards to gain 'IFR Approval'; no IMC.

 

However, that is not to say that they don't meet some of the requirements. They do, and in doing so, they are permitted to be 'utilised' to the extent that they do comply. This is how we can train in the IFR system (although we must remain VMC).

 

Why all the confusion? I suspect it is a relic of the old days, when the terms IMC and IFR were pretty interchangeable or misunderstood. Hence the reason why FAA Order 8900 needs to 'clarify' the situation. As you will see, the FARs still stand, no FARs are violated. Remember the FAA Orders are like explanations to the FARs.

 

So Superman is spot on when he says,

 

To me it would appear that you need to be Instrument rated or have a CFII and the aircraft needs to be equiped and current for instrument flight to operate under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR flight plan). To operate under Instrument Meteorological conditions, the aircraft would need to be certified for instrument flight.

 

Hope that helps.

Is that sharp enough? ;-)

 

Joker

 

P.S. No need for things to get ugly on this site!!!

Edited October 3, 2007 by joker

[Gomer Pylot]

Another thing to consider is that it's possible to do much of the instrument training under VFR (not just VMC) conditions. You can fly instrument approaches, track airways, practice holding, and pretty much everything else without being on an IFR flight plan or ever talking to ATC. At some point, of course, it's necessary to actually fly in the IFR system, but not all the time.

[helonorth]

At the very beginning, the FAA order states it is for training and certification. I still don't see how

you could file an IFR plan when you are not doing either of those. Am I missing something ?

[joker]

Helonorth,

 

I agree its not very clear, despite the fact that it is meant to be a 'clarification'!!!

 

However, as I tried to suggest, remember that these FAA Orders are not 'regulations', and therefore are not governed by the rules of construction for Federal Regulations.

 

So with an open mind (and by putting pauses in the paragraph where necessary), you'll see how its meaning is just a description of rules in general. They are two statements of evidence and a condition required to clarify the USE OF AIRCRAFT NOT APPROVED FOR IFR OPERATIONS UNDER ITS TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR INSTRUMENT TRAINING AND/OR AIRMAN CERTIFICATION TESTING.

This is notwithstanding that, this same evidence also proves that in fact any Instrument rated pilot can file IFR so long as his aircraft complies with the FARs mentioned in the first sentence below (less 91.109), and he complies with the rules listed from 91.167(hehe!) to 91.187 (and any others), even though his aircraft is not certified for IFR.

 

Let me try to annotate:

First Sentence - (Talks about the requirements for instrument flight training) 61.65(a)(5) R22? S300? YES both of them are appropriate. -

Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91, sections (§§) 91.109, 91.205, and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, §§ 91.411 and 91.413.

 

Second Sentence - (Talks about operating under IFR while VMC - anyone can do this, not just training) 61.3, 61.57 +there are no 'weather maximums' for IFR!

An aircraft may be operated on an IFR flight plan under IFR in VMC, provided the PIC is properly certificated to operate the aircraft under IFR.

 

Third Sentence - (Talks about what to do if second sentence encounters IMC)

However, if the aircraft is not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate, or if the appropriate instruments and equipment are not installed or are not operative, operations in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) are prohibited. The PIC of such an aircraft must cancel the IFR flight plan in use and avoid flight into IMC.

 

Part B - (Talks about how to determine if your aircraft is approved / certified for IFR)

Each fact above (when considered together) show how you can do flight training (or indeed anyone can file IFR whether they are training or not) in an aircraft that is not IFR certified.

 

Remember the Orders are meant to be working documents designed to give explanation and guidance to those using them (in this case Inspectors).

 

On a pratical note, filing IFR when not training or testing, just because you can, seems a little pointless to me. I can also imagine a controller being frustrated as it means he has to now apply IFR separation between you and others. The weather must be good enough for your route of flight (including possible vectors and altitude instructions). Cancelling could simply annoy controllers, especially if it was forecast to be IMC. You now have to take more fuel ( or do you - hehe!) and file alternates. No, although legal, I would simply go with 'Flight Following' as an easier alternative.

 

Can anyone think of any advantages?

 

Hope that helps.

 

Joker

 

P.S. I found the 'other' forum's thread just after I sent the PM. Very interesting!!!

Edited October 4, 2007 by joker

[Gomer Pylot]

The advantages: you get flight following, separation, and practice using the IFR system.

 

The disadvantages: your route may be somewhat circuitous, not direct. I don't care about the controller's angst, he has to deal with whatever traffic he gets, that's his job. I've never known of a controller getting annoyed because an aircraft cancelled IFR. That just lightens his load. If the weather is forecast to be at or above basic VFR minimums, no alternate is needed, and no extra fuel. In practice, the ceiling has to be well above the MEA or expected enroute altitude if you can't fly IMC. I'm not sure I would file if I couldn't fly IMC, and I don't recall ever doing it. I do recall being IMC even with a forecast of good VFR weather, though. You do need to use judgement in filing, if you do so. But then judgement is always required in aviation.

[helonorth]

It just seems to me that the first paragraph in section A describes aircraft requirements and the

second paragraph describes pilot certification requirements only for flight training and certification.

But i'll let it go. Also, as mentioned, why WOULD you file IFR? Flight following makes more sense. You

still get separation, but it is not always available. Thanks all.

Helonorth

[IFLY]

You

still get separation, but it is not always available. Thanks all.

Helonorth

 

That is the reason, you always get flight following filing IFR.

[EC120AV8R]

 

To me it would appear that you need to be Instrument rated or have a CFII and the aircraft needs to be equiped and current for instrument flight to operate under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR flight plan). To operate under Instrument Meteorological conditions, the aircraft would need to be certified for instrument flight.

 

Joker quoted this same paragraph in one of his responses, because you pretty much nailed it. For me, the big reason for occasionally getting an IFR clearance and flying an approach is to keep current. I don't want to have to get an Instrument Proficiency Check if I let my currency lapse. Of course it all has to be done in VMC, because our ships are not IFR certified. However, that does not prevent the filing and flying of a IFR flight plan, as long as the flight can be completed in VMC.

[helonorth]

The reason I split hairs on this subject is because the title of the document only addresses

training and certification. So I called my local FSDO and spoke to a nice gentleman who

told me yes, you can file an instrument flight plan any time your heart desires, as long as

you are instrument rated and remain in VMC.