Hover First?

[mechanic]

My CFI did the mix of training.

 

I did some follow the road on the first flight, left turns, right turns, go back to the training area and demo'ed an auto. Then I got to try the hovering 1 control at the time, and some pickups and setdowns.

 

Second flight, did some normal patterns, hover taxi, air taxi, then hovered again. This time with cyclic and collective. I was allowed to hover until I felt fatigued and wanted to stop.

 

It took me about 1.5 hrs to "get the hover button" and stay in the 20 ft box with all 3 controls. I had some home sim time though, before hand.

 

I had more trouble with the pedals than the cyclic! The dang pedals were killing me in pickup and setdowns. I had a different CFI get ugly with me and made me do them over and over and over for most of the training flight. I did make some progress that day, though. I thought those pedals were gonna keep me from flying the heli's.

 

Later

[joker]

I don't agree with you, Joker, but it's a moot point.

 

Maybe not 'moot', but you are right - we may never find a common ground. I have not the time to do research in this area. I think it would be a great dissertation topic for some budding academic in a university.

 

Over time though, like I said, good education practice based on proven study and methods will creep into the Aviation Industry. At the moment we have an industry, outdated in its instructional methods, which are essentially relics of a time when the industry was young, and the rushed and hurried need for practitioners prevailed.

 

Just as in other aspects of aviation which have become buzzwords recently (last 10 years) - namely CRM and HR. These have been in existance and practiced in the business world for eons, and only now have aviators embraced these philosophies as wise practice.

 

I think over the next 20 years, we will see education theory being better understood by aviators. The relatively modern 100 year old industry will eventually draw from what is one of the oldest and most ancient of arts.

 

Right off my soap box!

 

Hovering is hard, initially, and then, just like riding a bicycle, suddenly you can do it.

 

Yes. I don't dispute that. Hovering requires a completely new skill set, and muscle memory. As you start learning this new skill, neural pathways are formed, and the 'memory' is embedded into your brain. During this time, motor skill learning should really be focused on one skill set. Interference is possible if someone is trying to learn other motor skills at the same time. Once skill is learnt though, the 'memory' is essentially hardwired into the brain. 10 years later after dusting off, they are ready to use again.

 

The danger is, that incorrect learning here is very hard to undo. Stirring the pot is a prime example.

 

Spending many lessons gradually easing into hovering is, IMO a waste of the student's time and money.

 

OK. Let me clear up a my point. The 'progressive' approaches I talk of, are not a focus on hovering. They are a focus on all sorts of other things. What I am saying is that the 'sequence' for learning how to fly should be rearranged. Focus on hovering should come later, rather than right at the beginning. I suggest that if this is done, then ultimately LESS time will be needed to consolidate this part. This is because, while you are doing approaches, patterns, turns, climbs and decents you are pre-arming yourself with the MINIMUM skills required to even start attempting to hover. (Fine motor skill, fine motor coordination, spatial awareness, etc..etc..) If you start hovering with those, then you will take a shorter time to learn how to hover.

 

When you start hover practise on day one, you don't have these minimum basics. Going back to my point above, if you are trying to learn all of these minimum basics at once, it is possible for interference happen, as you struggle in the field trying to keep the heli in one place.

 

If you can hover, you can do anything else necessary for flying a helicopter.

 

I assume you mean here that hovering is the ultimate skill set for flying helis. In that case, let me turn your statement on its head then.

 

Everything else for flying a helicopter form the basic building blocks of hovering.

 

This logical twist of your own argument illustrates the absurdity of starting with hovering in flight training.

 

If you can't hover, you can't fly a helicopter successfully.

 

Whoa, hold on, I'm not saying that the instructor teaches you everything else, then gets out without teaching you how to hover!!! That's a silly idea!

 

But as I said, the point is moot, because you'll continue to instruct the way you believe you should, and I won't be instructing at all, because I don't care to.

 

Actually, I am not instructing currently. However, you have got me on one of my other areas of interest...education theory in aviation. However, this is all still 'theory' so I may be wrong.

 

I don't think it is moot, because although we are both out of instruction, our conversation may just get some current instructors to review their methods, and think about (or remember) their training on the FOIs - Fundimentals of Instruction. If we might help them be better instructors than it is not moot to discuss such matters.

 

Cheers,

 

Joker

Edited November 12, 2007 by joker

[Gomer Pylot]

I think hovering forms the basis of everything else done in a helicopter. If you can't hover, you can't complete an approach, you can't take off, and you won't do a good job of flying straight and level. A helicopter is not an airplane, and doesn't react like one. It's unstable, and has to be controlled full time. Airplanes have been known to take off on their own, fly around until they run out of gas, and then almost successfully land. They're designed to be stable. Helicopters aren't, and until the pilot can stabilize it all the time, every time, he's not a helicopter pilot. That has to be learned, and I think learned before anything else, because once it's learned everything else is easy. Some people will never get over that hump, but will spend lots of money playing before they discover that they can't do it. It needs to be taught up front. At least that's my opinion, for what it's worth.

[Sparker]

If you can't hover, you can't fly a helicopter successfully.

 

I can't hover.

Guess its back to McDonald's...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kidding, thanks for the input guys, and I was hoping to hear two (or more) sides to this.

[Gomer Pylot]

Almost the entire population of Earth can't hover. But they can be taught.

[Chi-town]

Wow,

 

I can't believe I agree with both Gomer and Joker. Successful hovering is vital to progression in training AND the building block method of instruction is the most efficient way of teaching, but I don't see how both of your points of view are mutually exclusive.

 

You won't be a very popular or successful instructor forcing a student to learn hovering for the first three lessons when it's 100 degrees outside. As the student fatigues, he will regress. You need to mix it up.

 

The building block method IS used when conducting the hover training by gradually introducing each of the controls, then after a somewhat steady hover is learned, progressing to hover taxi, turns around a point, pickups/setdowns, etc.

 

Training a civilian student the same way they taught (and teach?) at Rucker is also not a recipe for success. Different motivations for different students (oh no there are those FOIs sneaking up on me!)

 

I don't know if we've made any progress on the subject or helped answer the question. I think the Poll needs to have a third choice that includes "train both skills at the same time"

[joker]

I think hovering forms the basis of everything else done in a helicopter. If you can't hover, you can't complete an approach, you can't take off, and you won't do a good job of flying straight and level.

 

Gomer, it is difficult to know whether you say that because you believe the the discrete skills of hovering permeate into all other flying skills, or whether you are saying that hovering must be taught first because it is the first skill a true helicopter requires (before takeoff) and the last skill he needs in order to safely get back to terra firma.

 

In other words, are you talking of sequencing or that hovering is a building block?

 

Let's take the sequencing arguement. The order you learn the discrete skills of a complex gross motor skill is largely irrelevent.

 

Take a gymnastic vaulter. She has 4 skills she must learn. Approach, takeoff, flight and landing. If she can't do any of these she cannot do the complete vault, can she? The order she works on these as discrete skills does not matter though. She can practice each one as a single skill (using foam pads for landings, trampolines to simulate approach while she works on the flight etc...etc..) So aruging that because hovering is required before you can even take off, so then must be taught first doesn't really work. Taken to its extreme (and not meant literally), so long as you know how to hover before your checkride, what difference does it make when you master it?

 

That has to be learned, and I think learned before anything else, because once it's learned everything else is easy.

If your arguement is that the skills of hovering can help every other part of flight, then let's put it this way. A good hoverer will probably have finer control in other areas of flight - yes! Still, that doesn't make hovering a building block of the other areas. It is still the most complex skill for a helicopter. That is the only reason why a good hoverer is probably good at the other things.

 

Going back to a gymnast analogy; someone good at handstands is probably good at headstands. That's because the headstand is a progression towards the handstand. It doesn't mean that you should teach handstands first to learn how to do a good headstand!

 

Well, we have agreed that we will probably disagree on this!

 

I think Chi-Town makes the best suggestion; one which we both would agree with. That there needs to be variation during the flight. Do some hovering and make it fun.

 

All I'm saying is don't expect it to come easily until some of the 'building block skills' have been mastered. Do this by using other aspects of flying. I am saying that TOTAL learning time can be reduced by bringing hovering in later than many instructors do so and by placing less emphasis on this skill too early. Definitely do not make a student's failure to hover successfully a barrier to his learning. e.g. "Sorry, you we can't go on until you can hover!"

 

Not meaning to be obstinate. I enjoy this debate. I hope it gives food for thought!

 

Joker

Edited November 12, 2007 by joker

[Eric Hunt]

Teaching S&L before hovering is a natural progression.

 

In S&L flight, Bloggs is learning to control the attitude, with the assistance of a modicum of stability from the forward flight. He stuffs it up a little, it is retrievable. Not so easy in the hover - get the attitude too high, he starts to move backwards. No assistance, he is in the deep end, with flapback taking control and sending him into dynamic instability.

 

Why not start with the achievable, and progress in steps? There is not the enforced progression rate that the Army demanded, just the limits of the bank account. In the civvy world, my best student soloed in 14 hours, the worst did it in 70 hours - and then quit, having at least achieved that milestone and realised he was never going to cut it as a pilot. He went back to being a squillionaire lawyer and property developer. bastard.

[Gomer Pylot]

My point is that hovering has to be learned, and once it is learned, everything else is easier and comes more quickly. The first lessons certainly don't have to be hovering exclusively, but it should be practiced for a long as the student can deal with it. At least, that's my theory. As I said, every instructor is going to teach the way (s)he wants. The OP asked for opinions, and that's mine.

[Sparker]

Take a gymnastic vaulter. She has 4 skills she must learn. Approach, takeoff, flight and landing. If she can't do any of these she cannot do the complete vault, can she? The order she works on these as discrete skills does not matter though. She can practice each one as a single skill (using foam pads for landings, trampolines to simulate approach while she works on the flight etc...etc..)

 

Joker, your knowlegde of gymnastics is frightening.

 

The OP asked for opinions, and that's mine.

Thanks Gomer...

 

BTW is it GOMer because you fly the gulf or because of the more obvious reference to Gomer Pyle?

[big_z]

I learned to fly straight first, and then learned to hover. A portion of each of the first few hours out of each lesson I was taught hovering, and then about then third hour we focused on hovering, and I got it down with minimal effort. That's how I teach it now, since it woked for me. Are there better ways to teach it? Maybe, but I have to teach from what I know.

[Sparker]

Maybe, but I have to teach from what I know.

 

No you don't.

That sounds like a cop-out, no offense intended.

 

You can take great ideas from here and stuff you have read elsewhere and come up with the best system possible. If you give up on bettering yourself, students will catch and so will employers when it comes time for recommendations and whatnot.

[big_z]

No you don't.

That sounds like a cop-out, no offense intended.

 

You can take great ideas from here and stuff you have read elsewhere and come up with the best system possible. If you give up on bettering yourself, students will catch and so will employers when it comes time for recommendations and whatnot.

 

No offense taken. It is sort of a cop out, but I can't really unlearn to hover and relearn it to see what's easier. Don't get me wrong, I do chat with other CFIs and see how they teach it, but I haven't seen a great deal of variance. At least, not enough to seriously question the method. Meh.

[lv@1stflite]

"First of all, well done! Second of all - the thought of an instructor tying shoes, writing letter, and watching vids whilst a relatively new student is hovering scares the hell out of me!" Joker

 

 

Joker, First.... Thanks!! But you took what I said way too literally Seriously, while I'm hovering, I can see him out of the corner of my eye and his hands are on his knees not guarding the controls like he used to. On a recent cross-country he was jacking with the radio, looking at his charts and just enjoying the flight. The fact that he's so relaxed gives me comfort and confidence.

 

Granted, I have a lot of experience operating backhoes and fork lifts and various heavy equipment, and though the controls are not so delicate, it does require concentration and coordination..... so maybe I had a bit of a head start.....

 

Also, we didn't start out with him saying "Here's the controls, keep us over this spot." At first it was "You have cyclic, I have collective and pedals" Then "you have pedals, keep this heading." then collective. Then it was cyclic and collective, then cyclic and pedals, collective and pedals and finally all three..... With me, that was the best way, I learned quicker than I thought I would.

 

I'm pretty grateful too since the second that engine starts it's $$$$$$$$$!!!!

 

I'd also like to add a THANK YOU to all you rotor-heads who's advice kept me away from "The school we do not mention"

Edited November 14, 2007 by lv@1stflite

[500E]

I was told not to stir the pot, when learning to hover.

If hover had to be mastered before flying it would have driven me away, the lets fly a circuit then hover for a few minutes worked for me, as you came in you were told to aim for a spot & hover, each time it got to be more controlled & a little longer, if you don't feel you are learning and improving you loose confidence.

I used to beat my self up enough on the hours drive home, without spending the whole lesson feeling as if it was a waste of timeas well.

Jokers method worked for me.

Gomers has a different motivational force " do it or go" great? if you are in the services but if it is your money a different story, and yes i wanted the cheapest way to learn but the incentive is different + it could be your $ you ball up, I definately got worse as the leson progressed especialy after 2 hours, when confidence had built up the lessons got longer and the level of frustration got less.

Saying all above personaly teaching some one to fly with 200 hours in my log would be my worst dream, I have considerably more hours than that but would still baulk at teaching, I can understand GPs comment of not wishing to teach.

[JCCBURT]

Hello all....

 

this is my first post here, glad to have found you guys....

 

just wanted to add my 2cents here....

 

 

I find it funny that there wasnt one mention of simulators mentioned here....

 

I am a sim junkie.... for cars and flying, and only for the higher end stuff for the PC... I learned to fly a helicopter in a PC game called "Battlefield Vietnam"... go ahead and laugh...

 

but you must understand I laugh at you who can not hover...

 

my brother has just gotten his commercial and is going for his CFI and I just decided to follow in his steps, so he took me up for the first time with the intention of actually starting to teach me....(I had gone up once before and maintained level flight)

 

he had me do circles and try to keep my altitude.....

 

he had me try to fly level and then stop the helicopter, then re-gain speed, and stop etc. while maintaining alt....

 

then he had me try to hover, first at 1,000 ft... I think I did it no problem (hard to tell how exact you are from that high)and he was a lil shocked, so we got clearence to land and he had me hover 3ft off the runway... while I must admit my heart was racing and I was giving it my 1,000% attention, it was easy....

 

he was quite shocked so he told me he was going to start kicking the R22 into 90deg rotations and I was to maintain the hover.... no problem either... I smiled because I could tell he was trying to throw me off and he was impressed... I was also laughing because there was a SouthWest plane waiting to take off at the Burbank Apt. while we were messing around on the runway... lol...

 

anyway, after he was kind of speechless, and he kept telling me how shocked he was that I could hover "instantly".... I laughed and told him "well I kinda cheated, it wasnt really instantly, it took me a few hours on 'the sim'"... to which he tried to tell me its different...

 

I told him obviously it wasnt, and winked...

 

 

having said that I flew for hours/days in the sim before I could hover.... ;-)

[beckwith]

As a person who teaches a lot of psycho-motor and muscle memory based skills I'm constantly being surprised by the different ways people learn. I firmly belive that a successful model of instruction will put student's learning styles, motivations, and understanding first. I know that a lesson which addresses the students motivation will always be a success one which fails to do so will always be a failure. Because of this knowledge I can agree with both Gomer and Joker, with different students. if a student is primarily motivated by the fealing of flying then they may want to spend more time in "straight and level" then in hovering whereas a student who is more motivated by a desire be able to take off and land may wish to spend more time mastering hovering. That being said a progression is still important as is varying activities so as not to overload the mind's abillity to learn new motions and cause regression.

 

 

JCCBURT, Welcome, Battlefield Vietnam had the worst controls I have ever used in a video game, If anything it may be harder then flying a real helicopter, I'm glad it works for you. Though you may want to forgo laughing at others who either have not played as many games as you or whose learning styles and perceptional Biases don't make that transfer as well as yours did. It kinda makes you look like an ass.

[smartymarty]

I'd also like to add a THANK YOU to all you rotor-heads who's advice kept me away from "The school we do not mention"

 

I'm currently a student at "that school", and i love it. I'm glad I DIDN'T see this board before signed up.

 

Oh, and I learned the basics first, before mastering hovering.

[Sparker]

Though you may want to forgo laughing at others who either have not played as many games as you or whose learning styles and perceptional Biases don't make that transfer as well as yours did. It kinda makes you look like an ass.

 

Thanks.

[beckwith]

Thanks.

 

No worries

[JCCBURT]

JCCBURT, Welcome, Battlefield Vietnam had the worst controls I have ever used in a video game, If anything it may be harder then flying a real helicopter, I'm glad it works for you. Though you may want to forgo laughing at others who either have not played as many games as you or whose learning styles and perceptional Biases don't make that transfer as well as yours did. It kinda makes you look like an ass.

 

Thank you for the warm welcome...

 

by controls do you mean flying physics?

 

or are you referring to the controller in your hand?

 

and to be clear ;-) I only laugh at those who laugh at me for enjoying sims and/or for believing that they are a valuable learning tool.... for ex: my brother

[beckwith]

by controls do you mean flying physics?

 

or are you referring to the controller in your hand?

 

The combination of both factors, aswell as a difficulty with perceptual depth which I find in most video games but especially in flight sims.

 

and to be clear ;-) I only laugh at those who laugh at me for enjoying sims and/or for believing that they are a valuable learning tool.... for ex: my brother

 

No big deal.

[skypilot011]

I take student out to the training area. Introduce the controls. First give them cyclic only, i control other two. after a lot of pendulum action, I take the cyclic and give them the collective. LOts of ups and downs. Then I give them tr pedals. lots of left right action. Then switch them back to cyclic only for a few minutes, then have them do cyclic and collective a few minutes, as they get comfortable, i add in the pedals and let them work on all three. After an hour of frustration or so, they generally get the idea and can do some sort of ok hover the next flight. (and usually add in a few short patterns during the mix, because they get a bit tired. (only do this after the demo flight.) The reason i do all this within a few feet of the ground is two fold. First they get real training, not just a helping hand at the beginning on takeoff and on the end on landing. second, i can see if they are going to just let go of the controls(which they usually do at some point when they get frustrated). While guarding the controls, i just take over and we have another discussion on positive transfer of controls.) Do that at altitude and you aren't close to the controls and things could go south in a hurry. When i initially learned to hover on my 2nd flight after the demo, the cfi did just this, except initially he gave me all the controls and let me go at it... I will never forget all the pendulum action going on that first hour. But by my 2nd 3rd and 4rth hour i had it down real good. A small feat for an r22. don't get me wrong, though, the setdowns still needed lots of work till around the 100 hr level. (and really came into them after the commercial rating and CFI training. Keep er greasy side down and good luck.

 

CFII in northern california

[svtcobra66]

As a person who teaches a lot of psycho-motor and muscle memory based skills I'm constantly being surprised by the different ways people learn. I firmly belive that a successful model of instruction will put student's learning styles, motivations, and understanding first. I know that a lesson which addresses the students motivation will always be a success one which fails to do so will always be a failure. Because of this knowledge I can agree with both Gomer and Joker, with different students. if a student is primarily motivated by the fealing of flying then they may want to spend more time in "straight and level" then in hovering whereas a student who is more motivated by a desire be able to take off and land may wish to spend more time mastering hovering. That being said a progression is still important as is varying activities so as not to overload the mind's abillity to learn new motions and cause regression.

JCCBURT, Welcome, Battlefield Vietnam had the worst controls I have ever used in a video game, If anything it may be harder then flying a real helicopter, I'm glad it works for you. Though you may want to forgo laughing at others who either have not played as many games as you or whose learning styles and perceptional Biases don't make that transfer as well as yours did. It kinda makes you look like an ass.

 

You know i've been saying Battlefield Vietnam is the best helicopter sim out there for a while, and no one believes me. Its WAY better than microsoft flight sim X...glad someone else found it was helpful.