Malibu Screw up

[Goldy]

So I'm at home watching the Malibu fire rage out of control over the weekend. About 10am Saturday morning, during live TV coverage of the aircraft fighting the brush fire, in flies an R22....right into the fire area. The local TV channel zoomed in on his tail number (nice job there, Larry). They actually had to call off the airdrops because of this ship.

 

In case there is any new pilots out there reading this, there is an immediate TFR, usually up to 3Mi and 3000AGL over any active fire to protect firefighting efforts. Just don't go near one. period.

 

Needless to say, I couldn't believe what I was seeing. So which one of you was it ?

 

Anyway, if you were flying over Malibu in a R22 with a tail number starting with N5 last Saturday, I would be on a plane to Antartica right now. In fact, on behalf of the helicopter community, I would like to put you on that plane....preferably horizontally.

 

Here's a link to the TFR

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?Content...ff521184c8&

 

FLY SAFE..CHECK FOR TFR's! Goldy

Edited November 27, 2007 by Goldy

[brushfire21]

Goldy, 3mi seems a little shy from my memory when I read the above post, so I went looking through my fire paperwork for my diagrams and then found the pdf on the web. On page 8 of the pdf, it shows a nice layered cake pictogram of the FTA. I am sure a few other guys that fly in the FTA/TFR area can give concrete information on this. But to be honest, with the DC-10 flying through these things, I personally would want to give it and the standard S-2T tankers more room for maneuvering!

 

http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/fire/aviation/airs...e/Chapter07.pdf

 

The FTA (Fire Trafffic Area) utilizes a five NM radius from the incident latitude and longitude.

Five NM is the minimum radius, although a radius greater may

be used to adapt to unique incident demands. The upper most limit of

the FTA can flex vertically depending on operational requirements of

participating incident aircraft.

There is an “initial Contact ring� established on a 12 NM radius from

the incident latitude and longitude. There is a “NOCOM ring� or

holding ring established on a 7 NM radius from the incident latitude

and longitude. If no communications (hence the coined term

“NOCOM� are established, the aircraft will hold at 7 NM and not

penetrate the FTA any further. The NOCOM holding options include a

7 NM option or a quadrant option.

The FTA concept provides for arriving aircraft to be at the assigned

altitude given by the Air Tactical Group Supervisor or Lead Plane prior

to penetrating the FTA. For a standard shape FTA, the penetration

point would be 5 NM from the incident.

Large incidents often will have airspace requirements and TFR’s that

exceed the dimensions of a standard FTA. In this case, Initial Points

(IP’s) are used in conjunction with transition routes to and from the

incident. An IP is a physical location based on geographic or coordinate

reference such as a latitude/longitude. Unless otherwise directed,

arriving aircraft will reference the IP for initial communications

and NOCOM procedures.

 

PS, I almost ended up at the Malibu Fire. Thank goodness we got cancelled and then turned around Saturday afternoon midway down Hwy.5 as other units from up here in the northern part of the state sat in staging!

[FredR]

While working on the Sawmill Complex this summer we had an R44 fly low level directly over our helibase. While the helibase was outside the TFR, none of us were too happy to have to worry about dodging low level aircraft while transitioning to and from the helibase with external loads. My advise to to stay as far away from any active fires as possible. Also, if you see a fire that wasn't covered by a TFR, it might be a new start and most likely there will be initial attack aircraft working it so give it a wide berth as well.

[rotor91]

I'm sure someone will have their ticket pulled for sometime, if they can find the guy! Pilots like that, make our small community look like sh#t....I hope they pull his ticket! Glad Larry got the N #'s!

 

Just found out today, that our good friends lost everything in the newest Malibu fire, beautiful house, guest house, office, on about 2+acres...really nice view too! Even their dogs died!

 

I was out in Agoura awhile ago, and was flying through the mountains, and the LA County Fire was lifting from one of their pads in the mountains. They were about 1/4 mile away, and I made a position report on .02 and they never responded....must of not have been on the .02 frequency...go figure!

 

I loved the shot of Carson's S-61 snorkleing out of a Dough-Boy....NICE!

 

R91

[big_z]

We had some guys out there doing fire suppression. They got some sweet pics. I'll see if I can dig them up.

[nbit]

I have four times run into a fire that was yet unreported (after getting a FSS brief and having TFR's noted of course). Three times flying helicopters and once flying an airplane... If that happens, it is a good idea to contact ATC and confirm there is no TFR. Two of the times, after asking ATC the pertinent question, I was asked to remain in the area to report more information about the fire (size, location, whether it was growing in intensity, etc...). So while it is a good idea to avoid them, it wouldn't hurt to be a good Samaritan - if you're following the rules...

[ca_flyer]

I do photo tours in CA and I've seen a couple fires here and there. Always reported them to ATC, though they never asked me to stay and report on it, which would have been kind of awkward with passengers in the back. Luckily my area of california isn't really on fire at the moment, but you never know.

[Goldy]

I loved the shot of Carson's S-61 snorkleing out of a Dough-Boy....NICE!

 

R91

 

 

I saw that one too...great shot !

[Witch]

I loved the shot of Carson's S-61 snorkleing out of a Dough-Boy....NICE!

 

R91

 

 

 

I saw that one too...great shot !

 

Well, Post it. I wanna see it too!

 

 

Pleeze?

[Goldy]

Well, Post it. I wanna see it too!

Pleeze?

 

 

Witch- sorry it was a TV shot, not a still. Basically the guy had a small above ground pool out away from his house. The fire was burning uphill towards his house and the Carson 61 came in, hovered over his pool, sucked up all his water in 3 or 4 fills, and put out the fire threatening his house. Thats what I call preparation. The turn arounds were about 30 seconds each, so he put a lot of water on that fire in a short time and our KCAL9 was there to catch it on video...good stuff.

 

Rob- LACFD is always on 02, but they are also talking on 3 other radios, so sometimes you have to call them 2 or 3 times to get their attention. I love seeing those wig wag anti collision lights coming at me !!

 

Goldy

[Superman]

Hey Witch,

 

Don't take this the wrong way....... But when Goldy posted this, the first thing that popped into my head was......

 

Witch, flying his R-22 over the fire with a couple super soaker squirt guns duct taped to the skids fighting the fire.

 

Don't know why. Anyway, don't hate me, its all in fun.

 

Clark

[JDHelicopterPilot]

Goldy,

 

 

I have always been under the impression that TFR's are not immediate but rather have to be posted by the FAA. It is up to the pilots to have the most current information on TFR's. Checking the FAA TFR site is not enough, one must call the FSS for most current TFR's. Until one is posted it is still legal to fly near the fire.

 

I fly out to Catalina all the time. Last June was the fire on the island. We were flying until the TFR posted then shut down. Once the fire was mostly contained we got permission to enter the TFR for our flights and shared the heliport with County and City Fire.

 

Unless I am mistaken it's not in violation to fly near a fire if there is no TFR up yet. Even then, you can get permission to enter if you need to.

 

When I flew in San Diego I spoted several fires 2 years ago and reported to the local tower who in turn sent out the SD County FD 412's. So I agree we should be vigilant and report things out of the ordinary.

 

JD

[Helihead]

While working on the Sawmill Complex this summer we had an R44 fly low level directly over our helibase. While the helibase was outside the TFR, none of us were too happy to have to worry about dodging low level aircraft while transitioning to and from the helibase with external loads. My advise to to stay as far away from any active fires as possible. Also, if you see a fire that wasn't covered by a TFR, it might be a new start and most likely there will be initial attack aircraft working it so give it a wide berth as well.

Edited June 15, 2008 by Helihead

[Goldy]

Goldy,

I have always been under the impression that TFR's are not immediate but rather have to be posted by the FAA. It is up to the pilots to have the most current information on TFR's. Checking the FAA TFR site is not enough, one must call the FSS for most current TFR's. Until one is posted it is still legal to fly near the fire.

 

 

Unless I am mistaken it's not in violation to fly near a fire if there is no TFR up yet. Even then, you can get permission to enter if you need to.

JD

 

JD< I think you are at least half right. Here's the problem with flying near an active fire. The TFR's are immediate, they go into effect the second they get posted. If you get FSS blessing and 5 minutes later a TFR rolls out, you are left holding the bag. Knowing that these TFR's are immediate, and obviously seeing a large brush fire, with 21 active aircraft I might add, would certainly be evidence enough that you should have known better, now hand me your ticket !!

 

Here's a link to one of the TFR's that went into effect last week. Notice the wording...immediate...as in right now. If you're airborne, too damn bad, it's up to the PIC to know it all. Of course, you can always call FSS or check on 123.025, they may let you pass, or at least clue you in to whats going on. I find in LA, the public safety ships are most helpful, reminding you of baseball game TFR's, ,etc. Just 2 weeks ago I had a very suspicious occurrence and was able to get County Fire to roll an LASD ship...all on .02.

 

Here's that link.

 

http://www.aero-news.net/news/genav.cfm?Co...8&Dynamic=1

 

With that said, Catalina is one I have never flown into. Some day I'll take the 44 over, used to go there all the time when I had a sportfisher. Maybe see you around LA sometime.

 

Fly safe, Goldy

[K-38]

So I'm at home watching the Malibu fire rage out of control over the weekend. About 10am Saturday morning, during live TV coverage of the aircraft fighting the brush fire, in flies an R22....right into the fire area. The local TV channel zoomed in on his tail number (nice job there, Larry). They actually had to call off the airdrops because of this ship.

 

In case there is any new pilots out there reading this, there is an immediate TFR, usually up to 3Mi and 3000AGL over any active fire to protect firefighting efforts. Just don't go near one. period.

 

Needless to say, I couldn't believe what I was seeing. So which one of you was it ?

 

Anyway, if you were flying over Malibu in a R22 with a tail number starting with N5 last Saturday, I would be on a plane to Antartica right now. In fact, on behalf of the helicopter community, I would like to put you on that plane....preferably horizontally.

 

Here's a link to the TFR

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?Content...ff521184c8&

 

FLY SAFE..CHECK FOR TFR's! Goldy

Ever determine who was operating the R-22 in question?

[Goldy]

Ever determine who was operating the R-22 in question?

 

 

I'll leave that to the FAA.. .I cant do everything !

[Witch]

Hey Witch,

 

Don't take this the wrong way....... But when Goldy posted this, the first thing that popped into my head was......

 

Witch, flying his R-22 over the fire with a couple super soaker squirt guns duct taped to the skids fighting the fire.

 

Clark

 

I will take it the wrong way because I didn't think of it first. I'll take it to the next level and add water balloons with foam and gatorade.

 

Seriously, the more absurd, the better.

 

Later

[Goldy]

Forgot to mention, look in Part 91 where it talks about TFR's..nothing in there says anything about a certain amount of notice required before going into effect. Just another great reason to keep your eyes open and/or use flight following.

 

PART 91--GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES--Table of Contents

 

Subpart B--Flight Rules

 

Sec. 91.137 Temporary flight restrictions in the vicinity of disaster/hazard areas.

 

(a) The Administrator will issue a Notice to Airmen (NOTAM)

designating an area within which temporary flight restrictions apply and

specifying the hazard or condition requiring their imposition, whenever

he determines it is necessary in order to--

(1) Protect persons and property on the surface or in the air from a

hazard associated with an incident on the surface;

(2) Provide a safe environment for the operation of disaster relief

aircraft; or

(3) Prevent an unsafe congestion of sightseeing and other aircraft

above an incident or event which may generate a high degree of public

interest.

 

The Notice to Airmen will specify the hazard or condition that requires

the imposition of temporary flight restrictions.

( When a NOTAM has been issued under paragraph (a)(1) of this

section, no person may operate an aircraft within the designated area

unless that aircraft is participating in the hazard relief activities

and is being operated under the direction of the official in charge of

on scene emergency response activities.

© When a NOTAM has been issued under paragraph (a)(2) of this

section, no person may operate an aircraft within the designated area

 

blah, blah...no notice required..just bang your it.

 

Goldy