Pathfinder Insurance???

[H500pilot]

Pathfinder Insurance........... How are they? I know they are in the Bahamas, is that OK? Any good or bad experiences? I'm not sure I like not being able to call anybody, thats kind of weird.

[klas]

You can try these guys if Pathfinder is not what you are looking for:

 

http://www.suttonjames.com/products/robinson.html

[spencer]

Pathfinder Insurance........... How are they? I know they are in the Bahamas, is that OK? Any good or bad experiences? I'm not sure I like not being able to call anybody, thats kind of weird.

 

 

Well with my experience, they have responded timely to all of my e-mails. Getting people additionally insured is not a big deal (such as the city of Detroit or a local hotel). It is a British Virgin Islands company. This is essentially an offshore company which doesn’t share taxes and certain liabilities that a United States company would. I honestly can't say anything bad about them and I have heard that in previous instances they do pay up concerning you meet all of the endorsements defined in the policy. Now I have not dealt with any other helicopter insurance companies, so I really have nothing to compare it to. But I do think for what they give insurance wise they are probably your best bet for being the least expensive.

[Goldy]

Do a quick search, there are some good threads out there already on this subject. Insurance is not insurance. Simply put, they are not all the same and neither is their coverage!

 

So, you buy a brand new ship for 225K. You fly it for 100 hours and down she goes into the lake.

 

With most insurance, no worries, they go recover it. With Pathfinder you are on your own to recover the ship and get it back to the factory..that may cost you 30K.

 

Some carriers may have full hull value. With PF the hull is depreciated every hour, ( I think its $58), so now you are out 5800...plus I think there is a cap of maybe 90% of the value??

 

Both occupants survive, both have medical bills, both sue everybody. The insurance company takes care of it right? With PF, YOU are splitting those coverage limits with Robinson. Yes, you are paying for Robinsons defense attorneys in court, and every dollar they spend, is less available to pay the claims.

 

I am not an expert. Pathfinder has a place, certainly back when no one else would insure an R22...I own a ship, and the flight school insures it with PF. Just understand, they may be the cheapest, but there is an added level of risk using them...they may or may not be the right choice for you. I have never heard of any response issues with them, just understand what is and isnt covered.

 

The market has changed in the last 2 years...its easier to get helo insurance now than ever before..its more competitive...so look around, get a couple quotes, and do what you should always do....make your own decision.

 

Good luck,

 

Goldy

[H500pilot]

Thanks a lot. Great information. I will do some research.

[LadyShay]

Pathfinder Insurance........... How are they? I know they are in the Bahamas, is that OK? Any good or bad experiences? I'm not sure I like not being able to call anybody, thats kind of weird.

 

I've had them for a year...yeah...it feels weird to send money off into the netherworld...but they have always responded to emails within a day.

 

And when you consider your other choices...well...there really aren't any. I just read one of the replies about there being lots of options...but I sure couldn't find any a year ago. My R-22 costs a little over 6K a year to insure as a trainer. AG Edwards wouldn't insure it at all unless they could insure the whole fleet...which wasn't an option. W. Brown gave a quote of 24K a year...which was basically a message to go away.

 

It's about the weirdest kind of insurance there is...but think about it this way. If you have an accident significant enough to use it...the insurance is going to be the least of your problems. As my dad (who is an attorney) likes to say..."insurance is merely a contract to litigate at a later date."

 

Best of luck to you.

 

LadyShay

[Goldy]

I just read one of the replies about there being lots of options...but I sure couldn't find any a year ago. My R-22 costs a little over 6K a year to insure as a trainer. AG Edwards wouldn't insure it at all unless they could insure the whole fleet...which wasn't an option. W. Brown gave a quote of 24K a year...which was basically a message to go away.

 

Yepp..those words were mine. But ten years ago, AG or Brown would not have even given you a quote ! But today, there is AG, Brown, Insure America, Pathfinder, and at least one other (over 40..brain fade) Someone mentioned Sutton J, but they are a broker..many brokers out there but they all represent the same 4 or 5 companies that will write a piston helicopter.

 

But don't undervalue your risk. My point was if you use Pathfinder you are assuming more risk than you would under some other policies out there. You are also saving cash...cash that will go away in the event of an incident, so don't price your services based on Pathfinder insurance. Charge based on your full risk, and sock some cash away should you need it due to an accident. Otherwise you are taking both the added risk and don't have the cash to cover it. I guarantee in an R22 crash with Pathfinder, you will be out at least 30K that would have been covered under a policy by the other 3.enough said....6K a year sounds pretty reasonable for an R22..and yes, insurance companies want to insure your entire fleet, its more worthwhile for them and helps spread the risk. Wouldn't you want all of your customers business?

 

Fly safe, Goldy

[delorean]

I can't believe no one has mentioned this yet........

 

Pathfinder is run by Frank Robinson's brother-in-law. While Robinson Helicopter Company claims to have no affiliations, partnerships, alliances, etc with Pathfinder Indemity Company, however, the Robinson FAMILY does.

 

Why do you think you MUST take the ship back to the factory?? Because RHC gets to do all the repair work, then get paid by Pathfinder. Also, they dispose of (or recycle) any crash parts they don't reuse on the repair. This keeps people from parting-out crash ships which does two things: helps keep servicable parts only being available from RHC, and keeps unservicable parts out of the market which could lead to an accident causing bad PR and liability lawsuits against RHC.

 

As a previous poster mentioned, you use your settlement to help defend RHC against any lawsuits. Absolutely brilliant............

 

Pathfinder is good, cheap insurance......until you crash. But, you get what you pay for. If you buy a helicopter on borrowed money, you'll need to carry liability and hull. If you can't afford it through the big boys, Pathfinder is the perfect alternative. 5 yrs ago, Pathfinder was about 30-40% cheaper than everyone else. So if you have a crash and in the end you only get 80% what you would have gotten with the big boys, you win. You're not going to walk away with nothing.

 

Insurance is a gamble any way you look at it. If you load up with the best liability, hull, life, etc insurance that money can buy, then you DON'T die in a fiery crash where you were negliable, YOU LOSE big time. How screwed up is that?

[Goldy]

While Robinson Helicopter Company claims to have no affiliations, partnerships, alliances, etc with Pathfinder Indemity Company, however, the Robinson FAMILY does.

 

Absolutely brilliant............

 

I've never heard anyone (including Frank) deny that there was a connection between the two. If anyone didnt know there was a connection, this would definitely be the post to spell it out.

 

Brilliant- yepp, another one of Franks moments. Take a look at a problem and design a solution without any reference to the "norms" or how other people do it. It's definitely a brilliant move.

 

Goldy

[svtcobra66]

I'm not sure what issue but I wrote an insurance column for HeliOps recently about Pathfinder. I'd stay away, too much fine print and there's no transparency. In terms of insuring Robinson's....Sutton James has the Robinson Program through AIG, which has decent rates and is a quality insurance policy. Thats pretty much the best alternative to Pathfinder. I've posted about them before-some people have success w/ Pathfinder, but paying a premium to a company in the Bahamas, whose only contact is a fax number, seems a little too much like gambling for me.

[flybyranch]

We own an R44 here in FL and looked at PF Ins. You pay out the nose and in return if you have an accident (significant accident) you get squat back in comparison & you have to ship the heli to Robinson in CA (your cost). Add to that as soon as people see you have insurance they come after you for damages and such. Every hour stick $XXX in a piggy bank and self insure yourself, it most likely will work out cheaper!

 

Rick

[Sutton James]

There are a number of differences between Pathfinder and domestic insurance carriers. Those differences are too many to list, but a handful of differences pertaining just to the liability portion of these policies are outlined below.

 

1. Pathfinder limits your liability to $100,000. They may give you a $1,000,000 insurance policy, but :

o No Passenger can receive more than $100,000 of that limit.

o No person hurt outside of the aircraft can receive more than $100,000.

o No property damage will be paid that exceeds $100,000 in any one loss (i.e. hitting houses, damaging a farmer’s crops on landing, etc.)

 

Essentially, you’d have to land on a school bus and have ten people sue you if you ever want to get the million dollars out of your Pathfinder insurance policy. Domestic Insurance carriers can offer a $1,000,000 insurance policy without these sub-limits. If you choose to carry a $100,000 sub-limit for your passengers (this is a very common limit for Robinsons) they will not limit those outside of the aircraft or property damage. The full million dollars would still be available.

 

2. Pathfinder requires that you additionally insure the Robinson Helicopter Company. This means that your coverage does not only cover you, but it covers the Robinson Helicopter Company as well. This dilutes the coverage you thought you had all to yourself. Domestic carriers do not require you to additionally insure anyone. Coverage is yours and yours alone.

 

3. Pathfinder deducts defense costs from your limit. In addition, if any insured should request a defense separate from the Robinson Helicopter Company, then that lawyer would have to be paid separately. The domestic carriers will pay for the cost of defense outside of your limit. In other words, they will pay attorney fees and you will still have up to the full million dollars available to pay out.

 

The question to ask yourself when buying a policy is, “What will be left?” If you start with a policy that limits you to $100,000, then share that limit with the Robinson Helicopter Company, then pay for their lawyers and then pay for your own lawyer, what do you think will be left to pay the person suing you??

 

If you have specific questions about your situation, feel free to contact me directly. My name is Airika (pronounced Erica).

[delorean]

There's a great article in the latest issue of Vertical (March 2008, I think), that compares all the different policies, costs, company, owners programs, etc. Lots of good info on Pathfinder, among others.

[Sutton James]

The only thing to note when reading the article in Vertical is that things have changed considerably with the Robinson Insurance Program since this article was released. The Program is now underwritten through Starr Aviation, not AIG. Starr is an A++ carrier just like AIG, but is offering considerably better rates and more flexibility in terms of pilots and approved uses than we had been seeing with AIG of late. Premiums are certainly better than those mentioned within the article!! Aside from that, the information and advice offered by Guy is sound. I agree it is a worthy read!

[HeloJunkie]

I just purchased a brand new R44 Raven II and I was faced with two questions. The first was do I insure it at all..? Since I have no lien holder, insurance was not really necessary. However as my instructor pointed out, I wrote a $400k+ check once, did I want to do it again as a new R44 pilot in the event I screwed something up....? My answer was NO.

 

So the second question was who?

 

 

I read a lot on different insurance companies including good information here on VR. I contacted Sutton James and Caitlyn hooked me up with Starr Aviation and I ended up with a great policy for less than $18K for the first year. Considering I have less than 100 hours total time in rotor (20+ years high performance fixed wing), the $18K was a great deal for the first year. I received the paperwork and it looks like Starr actually wrote the policy through Chubb and another company called Federal Insurance Company. Not sure how it all works out, but in the end I feel better knowing that as a low time rotor and R44 pilot, I am fully covered. Also, the company is not located in the BVI (or where ever Pathfinder is actually located).

 

At some point, I may choose to self insure, but for now I want insurance. In the end, Sutton James had fantastic customer service and found me the best deal with the flight time that I had.

Edited March 15, 2008 by HeloJunkie