some cheap time available

[H500pilot]

I have a R22 that is currently in Florida. I need to get it to Oregon so I am selling the time off it for a very reasonable cost. No training will be given so you must be a rated pilot that just needs to build time. Pm me if interested

[Jeff]

I'll ferry it there for you for $400/day plus air fare to FL and home from OR.

[Chi-town]

H500,

 

I can offer a lower price to ferry your aircraft: $399.99 a day plus airfare. Sorry to lowball you, Jeff.

[permison]

Guys,

I think he is looking for you to pay him for the privilage of flying his aircraft for him.....

[flying high]

yeah, he's def selling the time, as stated.

[Chi-town]

Yeah, Permison, we know. I'm not speaking for Jeff, but I think from his post that he'll agree that we were making a point to H500 and to maybe some of the younger pilots and pilots-to-be that paying to ferry someone else's aircraft (on top of not getting any instruction on the way!) is a bit of a no-no for aspiring professionals.

 

He's looking for a rated pilot to fly it back which brings up a couple of questions:

 

If the ferry pilot is "building time" and no instruction is given, I assume he will be alone in the aircraft? If so, I wouldn't put a newly minted private pilot (or even a new commercial pilot) in one of my ships to cross the country.

 

If the pilot is a higher-hour commercial pilot or CFI, then I would fault the ferry pilot for not asking for compensation for his services.

 

If H500 was going along and providing instruction, I would think the ferry pilot should pay something for the instruction given ($20/hour seems fair as H500 is a newly minted CFI).

 

Nothing against H500 or the struggle to start up a new school, but I'm also sorry the sarcasm intended in the first two replies was lost on the readers.

[H500pilot]

I really don't see any problem in selling the time to a pilot to build time. You would have to pay any other time. The trip will be flown with another commercial pilot acting as a safety pilot and not logging the hours, obviously ( thus no instruction can be given). I had to pay to build my hours up. I would have loved to pay a discounted rate to build time. If need be I can arrange for a CFI to make the flight as well.

 

Correct me if im thinking wrong, but I thought this was a good opportunity for somebody to save some cash

[Goldy]

Yes, it would be good experience for a new pilot. Talk about CC time !

 

However, I have flown the R22 just enough to know I would NEVER want to fly the thing from coast to coast ! But I have to curl up in a ball just to fit in the thing.

 

Goldy

[67november]

Correct me if im thinking wrong, but I thought this was a good opportunity for somebody to save some cash

 

unless I missed your post, you asked for a ferry pilot for your R22, this is as I see it a hired position, so the $400/hr is a reasonable rate for the service you're requesting!

 

time building is a side benifit.

[Witch]

I'll do it fer $40/flt hr and air fare, plus lodging. I'll have 25 Dec to 5 Jan off from work if that'll work fer ya.

Edited December 8, 2007 by Witch

[apiaguy]

ahh hell, I'd do it for free if it wasn't a r22... I just like to fly... especially cross country... and I have the spare time. I don't need the flight time, it would just be fun. You pro pilots are hilarious.... where is your pro bono christmas spirit?? I thought you guys didn't fly "for the money". You don't want it... you want it....funny.

[jehh]

H500,

 

I can offer a lower price to ferry your aircraft: $399.99 a day plus airfare. Sorry to lowball you, Jeff.

 

Ha! I can beat you both!!! $399.98 a day plus airfare!

 

Ok, I'll just stand around and hold my breath.

 

All kidding aside, if this is a private pilot working towards his/her commercial, or someone who needs the R-22 time to teach, it could be a good deal.

[jehh]

ahh hell, I'd do it for free if it wasn't a r22... I just like to fly... especially cross country... and I have the spare time. I don't need the flight time, it would just be fun. You pro pilots are hilarious.... where is your pro bono christmas spirit?? I thought you guys didn't fly "for the money". You don't want it... you want it....funny.

 

I've always told people that I fly for free. I'll fly anything for free. What I get paid for is to show up when you want me to and fly where you tell me to.

 

If you give me a helicopter and let me fly when and where I want, I'll be happy to do it for free. It is those 6am flights to some place I wasn't interested in going that I need to be paid for.

[Linc]

Shrewd business move.

[Jeff]

I really don't see any problem in selling the time to a pilot to build time. You would have to pay any other time. The trip will be flown with another commercial pilot acting as a safety pilot and not logging the hours, obviously ( thus no instruction can be given). I had to pay to build my hours up. I would have loved to pay a discounted rate to build time. If need be I can arrange for a CFI to make the flight as well.

 

Correct me if im thinking wrong, but I thought this was a good opportunity for somebody to save some cash

 

My first post on this thread was meant to be a bit sarcastic. I sure could use some R-22 time toward my CFI sign-off since most of my time is in 300's. However, as a professional pilot, I would not pay to ferry someone's helicopter for them. I would expect, as I said before, $400/day plus airfare. (Or just to be competitive, I could take $399.97/per day plus airfare.) But I would pay to build time if I were using the helicopter for my own purposes.

 

The deal you're offering is a good one for you and a low-time private pilot who has to pay for everything anyway. In fact, there are a lot of companies out there that will let you ferry their aircraft for a fee, but I bet there aren't too many that do that with ASEL. Multi and helo time seem to be the most popular. From your end, H500pilot, you avoid paying to have your helicopter ferried all that way. Instead, you actually GET a little money back to help defray the operating costs. I would caution you, though, that if a Private Pilot does this, that he/she pay at least their pro rata share of the operating cost for the trip. Failing to do so could cause some problems with the FAA.

 

The guy that now runs this website has a pretty good deal for building R44 time. I checked into it and it is a bit different than what you're offering. With his deal, there is an instructor on board, so I'd be getting dual instruction all the way. I don't have an R44 PIC or CFI sign-off so by flying with him, I would be able to log dual toward that purpose. If I had those sign-offs, I would never pay to do it. And just to be clear for the VR community, I am not flying with him at this time and have not scheduled any flight. However, I am considering doing it maybe this summer.

 

~Jeff

[H500pilot]

My first post on this thread was meant to be a bit sarcastic. I sure could use some R-22 time toward my CFI sign-off since most of my time is in 300's. However, as a professional pilot, I would not pay to ferry someone's helicopter for them. I would expect, as I said before, $400/day plus airfare. (Or just to be competitive, I could take $399.97/per day plus airfare.) But I would pay to build time if I were using the helicopter for my own purposes.

 

The deal you're offering is a good one for you and a low-time private pilot who has to pay for everything anyway. In fact, there are a lot of companies out there that will let you ferry their aircraft for a fee, but I bet there aren't too many that do that with ASEL. Multi and helo time seem to be the most popular. From your end, H500pilot, you avoid paying to have your helicopter ferried all that way. Instead, you actually GET a little money back to help defray the operating costs. I would caution you, though, that if a Private Pilot does this, that he/she pay at least their pro rata share of the operating cost for the trip. Failing to do so could cause some problems with the FAA.

 

The guy that now runs this website has a pretty good deal for building R44 time. I checked into it and it is a bit different than what you're offering. With his deal, there is an instructor on board, so I'd be getting dual instruction all the way. I don't have an R44 PIC or CFI sign-off so by flying with him, I would be able to log dual toward that purpose. If I had those sign-offs, I would never pay to do it. And just to be clear for the VR community, I am not flying with him at this time and have not scheduled any flight. However, I am considering doing it maybe this summer.

 

~Jeff

 

I figured that was a given that they would be paying for their fare share of the time, since I'm selling the time like any other school would. In my first post, I didnt ask for a ferry pilot, I said that I would sell the time off it. And the price I am selling it at doesnt put a red cent in my pocket, I actually pay some of the cost.

 

Im not trying to scam anybody or any students. I guess my initial tought was "WOW, this could be a GREAT way for a time builder to build cheap time and gain valuable experience."

[jehh]

I figured that was a given that they would be paying for their fare share of the time, since I'm selling the time like any other school would. In my first post, I didnt ask for a ferry pilot, I said that I would sell the time off it. And the price I am selling it at doesnt put a red cent in my pocket, I actually pay some of the cost.

 

Im not trying to scam anybody or any students. I guess my initial tought was "WOW, this could be a GREAT way for a time builder to build cheap time and gain valuable experience."

 

For future reference, posting a price the first time around would have helped. If you said, "you pay for fuel, I'll cover the rest of the costs", you would get a much warmer reception than you did.

[Hovergirl]

One thing I remember from the last APOA safety seminar I went to (it was on regulations) was that the speaker said that if you fly someone else's aircraft for them to ferry it somewhere, and you do it for free just to build time, you are still being compensated. Your additional hours (if you are building up for a rating) are your compensation so you are providing service for compensation SO if you are not commercially rated this is against regulations.

 

Seems a bit unfair to me, and it was surprising, but I believe that's what he said.

 

What do you think? If I'm ferrying a helicopter but not commercially rated do I need to pay? How much? Does is matter that the person I'm doing it for is saving money by not hiring someone to do it but compensating me with hours?

 

HVG

[jehh]

One thing I remember from the last APOA safety seminar I went to (it was on regulations) was that the speaker said that if you fly someone else's aircraft for them to ferry it somewhere, and you do it for free just to build time, you are still being compensated. Your additional hours (if you are building up for a rating) are your compensation so you are providing service for compensation SO if you are not commercially rated this is against regulations.

 

That is true for the most part.

 

You must pay at least your pro-rata share of the operating costs as a private pilot. In this case, you had no other reason to make the trip, you're going because you've been asked to take this aircraft to some place you were not going in the first place.

 

The reason this is a rule is because it would create a loophole for commercial operations. Lets say you own a restaurant, and you need a dozen people taken somewhere for an event. I fly them for "free" in my helicopter as a favor to you, since we're "friends". Since I'm not being paid, this is not a commercial operation, right? Wrong. You're probably going to give me something later (a quid-pro-quo), perhaps free meals in your restaurant, in exchange for the "favor". That is how the FAA looks at it, and yes they have busted pilots for doing just that.

 

So if you fly this helicopter for "free", what are you getting out of it? Answer: Hours that you would otherwise have to pay for.

 

What do you think? If I'm ferrying a helicopter but not commercially rated do I need to pay? How much? Does is matter that the person I'm doing it for is saving money by not hiring someone to do it but compensating me with hours?

 

You must pay your pro-rata share of the operating costs. Yes, if you're obtaining flight hours, that is compensation.

 

Now, how do people get busted for this? Someone complains and turns you in. Happened not to long ago, a guy with a King Air 90 here tried this with a "friend". Problem is he did it twice in two weeks with two different friends. He also did it right under the nose of a Part 135 operator, who has spend a lot of time and money to be a Part 135 operator. Result, pilots have a 90 day suspension on their pilot certificates.

 

Now, in this specific case, is anyone going to say anything or complain? Probably not. This kind of thing is done all the time. Doesn't make it legal, however if no one is complaining you're unlikely to get into trouble. Just be aware of the rules, and make your decisions from there.

[Jeff]

I figured that was a given that they would be paying for their fare share of the time, since I'm selling the time like any other school would. In my first post, I didnt ask for a ferry pilot, I said that I would sell the time off it. And the price I am selling it at doesnt put a red cent in my pocket, I actually pay some of the cost.

 

Im not trying to scam anybody or any students. I guess my initial tought was "WOW, this could be a GREAT way for a time builder to build cheap time and gain valuable experience."

 

 

Yes, that's basically what I said.

[Chi-town]

It also is a bit strange that you won't be giving instruction on the flight because that begs the question of how the two pilots are going to split the PIC time. If I were the young time builder I would insist on logging all the time I paid for. If I were the commercial pilot you are sending along with this guy, I would want to be able to log the time as well (since I'm probably not getting paid much for the flight).

 

Just wondering if you are paying that second pilot to do this trip, why not just send him to bring it back alone? Less dead weight, less fuel stops, faster to your location where you can start building revenue. It all just seems a bit dodgy to me.

[captkirkyota]

So, to be clear..... If I were to do this, could I just pay whatever he wanted to charge, say for even numbers sake 50.00 an hour, but it cost him with fuel 120.00 per hour, thus 50 for me, 70 for him, this would in fact be illegal then to do.

 

Would fair equal splitting of costs then be dividing air fair down there, motels and food, or if I were to only pay the 50 he the 75 and then I paid my way there and food/lodging etc and as long as it was close in the end would the FAA try and slap us? What about the AFD's and charts? The route planners?

[H500pilot]

The commercial pilot that will be going along WILL NOT BE LOGGING THE HOURS, he is part owner of the school and the R22. So he has a HUGE interest in the safety of the helicopter. The student that pays will log all his/her flight time and will only be charged the hours they fly. There will obviously be no charge for riding along while not flying.

[jtravis1]

<<<<<<<<

Edited January 25, 2009 by jtravis1

[H500pilot]

I see no problem with what H500pilot wants to do. After owning several helicopters and operating them commercially, I understand that you need to try to make every hobbs hour count. You are not going to get rich running a flight school. As long as the price is reasonable, I think it is a good deal for someone. I do think that instruction should be offered for the trip though....

 

Splitting hairs, if the ship is insured with Pathfinder, the dual controls can not be installed in the helicopter unless the pilot is a CFI. If he is only commercially rated, no duals. I guess someone else is insuring it....

 

I will probably be doing something similar this summer. I am a CFI and I own a 500. (369a standard cat) I will offer some turbine time and some real instruction....yes autos too......for some long x-country trips I will be taking. Probably around 250-300/hour. I am not sure if any are interested in something like this....or if I will get hammered for offering like H500pilot did....

 

Like I said before, I can arrange for a CFI to make the flight with the time builder. What CFI wouldnt want to do this? IM paying for all the hotels and a cfi gets free time, a free trip and at least $25 per hour from me.