advanced maneuvers

apiaguy · January 22, 2008

Would like input from higher time individuals with military or civilian experience doing return to target maneuvers... (or ag turns or whatever you want to call it)

low level cyclic climb deceleration with pedal or torque turn at the apex to reverse direction.... Have you had anyone give you good pointers or just figure it out on the fly...?

I am curious if you have a preference to right or left pedal turns or do you think it matters? (usa mfg helicopter)

FlyNHighNFast · January 22, 2008

I am curious if you have a preference to right or left pedal turns or do you think it matters? (usa mfg helicopter)

As a newly minted private pilot, I'm far from being an expert, but you would want to make those turns to the left to keep the tail rotor in clean air. (depending on puller or pusher TR, it could be to the right)

Paisley · January 22, 2008

I always do them to the right. Less power required and better visibility.

FLHooker · January 22, 2008

If you do them in the wrong direction, I would imagine (not ever having done one myself), it has the potential to put you into Loss of T/R thrust/effectiveness... To the 'right' may use less torque, but if you induce the LTE, you may be in for a ride... Army 58D pilots would definitely have better insight, rather than myself who doesn't fly with one of them T/R things...

CHAD

IFLY · January 23, 2008

I would do them to the left for the same reason you do left pedal turns on your clearing turn. I've done simple fixed-wing aerobatics quite a bit and only one chandelle in a 22 on a check-out flight so I could rent the helo.

Since I only have just over 200 hours helicopter time you can ignore me if you like. :-)

Edited January 23, 2008 by IFLYEVERYTHING

FLHooker · January 23, 2008

HA! IFLY, I'm about to shoot myself in the foot, but you have my helo time than I do!

CHAD

apiaguy · January 23, 2008

You're all welcome to reply....

I've always preferred the left pedal turn for exactly the reasons stated above but I wanted to hear from someone with alot of experience in these maneuvers and maybe they had some better knowledge about the possibility of LTE in a pedal course reversal..... (I know the OH-58A guys certainly have been guarded against LTE over the years) I see guys do them both ways all the time (like that aerobatic guy Dennis Kenyan) and at air shows. Hopefully someone with more experience will chime in.

Where do you learn advanced maneuvers???

BOATFIXERGUY · January 23, 2008

We also prefer the turns to the left, but in a performance, you can't always do that due to your box or other factors. Your routine needs to change or the crowd gets bored. LTE...let's see.... If you're doing the manuevers, then you're completely aware of the dangers. You just have to be prepaired for it. I never worry about it. We do advanced maneuvers as the air boss will call them all the time at air shows.

In an enstrom, you assist the turn in either direction with slight power either on or off - i.e. roll on for right, roll off for left while leaving the pedals as much as possible. Let torque do the work. Keep your power up. It doesn't take much with those high inertia blades turning. we've done them in the R44 too...just takes a little more pedal to help. The enstrom has a huge green arch. Lots of room for torque to work.

For the manuever itself, keep your airspeed up. We enter the manuever at 80 knots, climb and let gravity do it's job. At the top, speed is bleed off to 40 knots for the turn. Keep 40 throughout the turn, Dive and level off .... get ready for the next turn. Don't rush the turn! Let it happen. NEVER FORCE IT. From the ground, it looks like you came to zero airspeed if the maneuver is done correctly.

They are a ton of fun, but NEVER ATTEMPT THEM WITHOUT SERIOUS TRAINING FIRST!

Make sure you and the FAA are on the same page before you do them. At the shows, you have to have a choreographed routine approved a head of time.

Who taught us....Robert "BOZ" Bossworth...3 tour Huey driver (early in my career), then Calvin Farrow on the air show circuit. Boz was amazing with a bird before he retired! (I did enjoy our nights over Stapleton Airport in the dark hovering OGE in total blackness for an hour or two at a time in the 407! )

Wally · January 23, 2008

Would like input from higher time individuals with military or civilian experience doing return to target maneuvers... (or ag turns or whatever you want to call it)
low level cyclic climb deceleration with pedal or torque turn at the apex to reverse direction.... Have you had anyone give you good pointers or just figure it out on the fly...?
I am curious if you have a preference to right or left pedal turns or do you think it matters? (usa mfg helicopter)

First, get some actual instruction before you try this. Low level aerobatics, even-or especially- as the FAA defines them are fatally unforgiving. The best source is an aerial applications (ag) pilot, they do this hundreds of times a day.

My limited exposure is that you make the turn into the wind. If inapplicable, I'd probably use left pedal, especially in a 206 series- although I HATE pushing the envelope in any 2-bladed Bell, mast bumping issues!- less chance of an LTE situation if you bugger the maneuver, and it seems that one is using minimal power, mostly controlling NR(?), so the left pedal is stronger.

The ag guy who demonstrated this to me used 50 knots on the level intervals, his usual spray speed in Schweizer. He could make the 180 just above the wires on the neighborhood power/telephone lines, my guess no higher than 50', and in very little time, which is what you want in AG or a return to target situation. Can't speak to display/air show type maneuvers.

Gerhardt · January 23, 2008

I've seen several CFIs do them just for fun when they know students are watching. (and when I was a student) I consider this to be absolutely irresponsible. There are more than a handful of NTSB reports of inexperienced pilots (and even experienced pilots) doing this just for fun and things not going as expected.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that CFIs should teach this to pilots with more time under their belt. It's just stupid to do something that looks cool in front of impressionable minds and then say "don't do this".

Linc · January 24, 2008

I do them to the left and the right, prefer not to zero out the airspeed, employ more cyclic (pitch and roll) than t/r pedal, use only cruise torque settings, and try to maintain within the pitch/roll limits of my -10 (POH) even if I'm maneuvering under fire.

Any maneuver where the t/r is the primary control functioning, you will always have an easier time of it going to the right. If you don't zero the airspeed (or even approach ETL), LTE is not a factor. If you don't lower the power setting, VRS isn't a problem. If you don't increase power, transient torque and overtorquing are not issues. RTT in a teetering, underslung hinge rotor system is not a maneuver to be undertaken lightly, ensure your life insurance is up to date and always maintain positive g.

Sorry if I double tapped any thoughts.

collector · January 24, 2008

I do them to the left and the right, prefer not to zero out the airspeed, employ more cyclic (pitch and roll) than t/r pedal, use only cruise torque settings, and try to maintain within the pitch/roll limits of my -10 (POH) even if I'm maneuvering under fire.

Any maneuver where the t/r is the primary control functioning, you will always have an easier time of it going to the right. If you don't zero the airspeed (or even approach ETL), LTE is not a factor. If you don't lower the power setting, VRS isn't a problem. If you don't increase power, transient torque and overtorquing are not issues. RTT in a teetering, underslung hinge rotor system is not a maneuver to be undertaken lightly, ensure your life insurance is up to date and always maintain positive g.

Sorry if I double tapped any thoughts.

Q for Linc:

I appologize for my ignorace, but could you please tell me what RTT stands for? Thnx!

I suppose VRS stands for vortex ring state...

Paisley · January 24, 2008

I do them to the left and the right, prefer not to zero out the airspeed, employ more cyclic (pitch and roll) than t/r pedal, use only cruise torque settings, and try to maintain within the pitch/roll limits of my -10 (POH) even if I'm maneuvering under fire.

Any maneuver where the t/r is the primary control functioning, you will always have an easier time of it going to the right. If you don't zero the airspeed (or even approach ETL), LTE is not a factor. If you don't lower the power setting, VRS isn't a problem. If you don't increase power, transient torque and overtorquing are not issues. RTT in a teetering, underslung hinge rotor system is not a maneuver to be undertaken lightly, ensure your life insurance is up to date and always maintain positive g.

Sorry if I double tapped any thoughts.

Couldn't agree with you more. I don't fly ag but use this maneuver often when flying out of box canyons in limited power situations where a tight turnout is required. It's an effective way to make a tight turn quickly with limited power. Find someone to teach you.