what should I do?

[Helidownunder]

I hope this doesn't sound too much like a moan, but I would really like some pointers as to how I should take things forward.

 

I am coming up to my 49th birthday and have been training for about 35 hours, first went solo at about 22 hrs and had a second (terrible) solo the next week (with none since). Since then everything has gone downhill, my self confidence is at a low, I know what I'm supposed to be doing, but am a couple of seconds to late all the time, at which point my instructor is saying, in rapid succession: "are you in balance?, are we at cruise speed?, don't look at the instruments - look at the horizon, have you done your downwind checks? are we at a positive rate of descent? slow down - slow down" etc, etc, etc, etc, at which point I get confused and make stupid mistakes which then just makes things worse. He said today that he has already tried the "encouraging" teaching method and also said "I'm either going to make you or break you" (not really much help to me). After the flight, he always asks how do I think I did - well, today it was obvious, I said I thought it was terrible with which he agreed and then came out with lots of analagies - "if you were driving up to a junction - you would take the appropriate action, i.e stop, wouldn't you" , "if your wife said she was going to leave you - what would you do about it/" - i.e : do something about it, in other words why don't you do the appropriate thing when we are flying. All of which make me feel even more stupid and incompetent. Up until I started having problems with my training, this guy was great, but now that I am struggling, the "you've just got to believe in yourself" comments have been coming thick and fast and really, I think he thinks I should stop, but he doesnt want to say it (possibly because I am a source of income for him?). Today, he also started being a bit insulting, swearing to drive home his point, but also told me to not take what he was saying personally, but how could I not.

 

I don't want to sound as though I am feeling sorry for myself, but this has been an ambition for sometime and now it's become something of a nightmare. I struggle with "seeing" the horizon - in order to alter attitude to acheive the speed etc that I want. I'm not a physically strong person, but I am still too heavy with the controls, turn too steeply and at times also don't carry out positive enough actions. I suspect that my sense of where I am and feeling for what I should be doing is just not sharp enough and may never be.

 

It would not be easy to change instructor, as he is a one man band and the nearest other schools are over one and a half hours away. He is passionate about instructing, which was mostly in the forces until about 5 years ago, and gives 200%, but is his technique right for me? Hard to say as he has been my only experience of an instructor, though he does say that he alters his teaching technique for each student.

 

Any suggestions -

 

Should I quit and take my acheivement so far as a positive thing?

Move school?

Persist where I am and tell him to be more sensitive to my feelings?!?

 

I'd be really glad to hear any suggestions, particularly from anyone who might have gone, or is going through something like this.

[rodrop]

A confidence breakdown is a tough thing. I have not had alot of confidence since I started...I definitely feel for you. It is tough on a person who really wants something. I recommend that you try (one more time) pulling your instructor to the side and saying..I am at a low..I know you want to make me or break me, but maybe we can take a few lessons and just focus on one piece at a time.. Ask him to break it down... instead of throwing everything at ya in the air...agree on one or two items you will focus on and then add one piece. Fly a pattern...Take off work on climbing and speed. On the crosswind work on speed and horizon..etc..

 

Here's something too... (I know it costs money) but ask him just to take you up and let him fly...just enjoy the flight..let him talk and just enjoy the scenery... remind yourself that you are meant to enjoy it just as much as master it.

 

Life is short, you want to be a pilot, it will happen...believe in yourself and know that if your instructor and you together can not make it happen...there is nothing wrong with going elsewhere...even for a couple lessons... A good instructor may try to help you get through by offering a new instructor/fresh eyes etc for a few flights to help you out.

 

You will do it...believe it...hang on to it...read the forums and magazines and books when you feel down.. Watch a good movie with helicopters in it... refresh your feelings and have a good time and a great flight!

[Chopperjess]

I only have my private, working on my commercial right now. However, if you do not like your instructor don't force yourself to stay with him. Request another instructor, or maybe you'll just have to take the hour and a half drive for another instructor.

 

If you really DO want to stay with your instructor, you should probably sit down with him and talk to him about what's bothering you. You have 35 hours? In the beginning, it was very difficult (And still is) to remember a lot of things, and get a lot of movements right. You just have to keep practicing and you will get it. Don't be so hard on yourself! Relax, think it through, talk yourself through everything. Everything. When you are doing your downwind checks, talk them out. When you are landing, talk out each step.

 

One thing my instructor let me do before my checkride, when my funds were getting a little too low to take flights, was we had an R22 about to be overhauled and was sitting out on the line. He let me go sit in it, since no one was going to be flying it. I sat for an hour or two every couple of days and walked around and practiced my preflight. Sat in the helicopter and talked outloud what I would do for start up and for shut down. Practiced my emergency procedures as to what I would do, and where I would reach, and what happened if this happened etc. It helped me a lot.

 

Don't get frustrated. It's not easy, but if you really put the time and the effort into it, you will get it. Talk to your instructor, and tell him you don't feel like he's motivating you, but instead knocking you down. Explain to him you don't feel like you're progressing, but instead you feel like you're slipping backwards. Maybe ask him to go a little slower for you.

 

Just my 2 cents

[michaelking42]

I feel your pain mate. Lots of good points have been made.

 

If you feel you are not getting anywhere with your instructor, it may be best to find another one. I see it's not just a matter of changing instructors, though, as you have to change schools with it. I left Ozzie to find a good flight school, and I still have to drive 4 hours to get to it! The more instructors at a school, the more opportunity you have to find one with the right teaching methods for you. And dumping an instructor is kind of like the jilted ex thing...complicated relationships!

 

If you want to stick with this guy and learn, you may have to teach yourself to fly. By that I mean (like chopperjess said) sit in a chair, close your eyes and imagine you are flying, and imagine what you have to do during the maneuvres (can never spell that word right!). There's a hell of a lot to think about, especially when you are on the spot; I've been there. Go over each step, each control input, each attitude change, over and over in your mind until you don't have to think about it. Your flying will improve out of sight.

 

A good flight simulator like FS2004 may help a lot too. I had a terrible time hovering until I bought that, along with some anti torque pedals and an el cheapo joystick.

 

The bottom line is that if you really want something bad enough, you'll do what it takes to get it. Stick with it - with or without your current instructor. If you quit now, you'll always feel bitter when you look back. Don't quit til you've at least got something to show for it (your PPL).

 

And if you do decide to dump your CFI, you can't let that bother you because after all, you are the client and he should be treating you like you are putting food on his table every day...I think that would be a fair comment to make, right?

 

Good luck

[tiercel]

I would try a flight with a new instructor first. The one you have doesn't sound like he's breaking things down enough. You need to focus on one or two things that you're having problems with until they're not problems any more, then move on to the next thing. Too many new things at once before you're proficient at the fundamentals will overwhelm you. He may be trying to correct too many things at once. Try not to get too down on yourself.

[Goldy]

I hope this doesn't sound too much like a moan, but I would really like some pointers as to how I should take things forward.

 

I am coming up to my 49th birthday and have been training for about 35 hours, first went solo at about 22 hrs and had a second (terrible) solo the next week (with none since).

 

 

I have to ask a couple questions first. Why no more solo? You went out once but never again?

What ship are you flying ?

 

I am a little more pessimistic than some others. I have seen students with 100 hours that were not allowed to solo...and this was at a school where others solo'd at 25 hours...so it wasnt the school milking students.

 

Honestly, I think training is not a straight line. You have peaks, valleys, and you grow in confidence thru leaps and bounds...not one hour at a time. I would hang in there, everyone has experienced the oh crap, why did I just do that ?? or not do that ?? times.

 

Also remember you have two modes in a small ship. The real sensitive, light touch, afraid to move anything times...and the oh crap, the wind has my tail and I need to jump on a pedal times...you can't be afraid to make a large correction when one is called for.

 

Good luck,

 

Goldy

[Helidownunder]

Hi all who have replied.

 

All really useful replies and helping to drag my chin off the ground!

 

Have just spoken to my wife - she agrees with me that I should be doing this because I am enjoying it - yes there will be ups and downs, but most of the time it should be fun. The tragedy is that I do like the instructor, but he is an ex forces, strong minded person with strong opinions.

 

I should add that over a week ago, my instructor and I, independantly came to the same conclusion that I should either persist or quit and take what I have done so far as an achievement. I decided that I would try to persist, asking him if we could concentrate on the things I am finding difficult, also adding in some interesting / fun stuff. We are doing the stuff I find difficult, but thats not at all enjoyable and doesn't seem to be working. Also no fun stuff.

 

Goldy -

I am learning in an R22 Beta II, which everyone seems to think of as being a bit twitchy, but with the advantage of the Governor and being fairly forgiving?

No more solo, because I completely lost my nerve and asked that I master coming off the ground / settling, take -offs and landings, before I go solo again - we've done a little of this, but I don't get asked whether I feel comfortable with what I'm doing - it's more like he is going to tell me when I am going to go solo - in other words I have to trust him totally and forget about how I feel about it!

 

 

 

 

keep the advice coming, it's really useful.

[Goldy]

Goldy -

I am learning in an R22 Beta II, which everyone seems to think of as being a bit twitchy, but with the advantage of the Governor and being fairly forgiving?

 

I thought you might be in a 22. Yes, twitchy is a good word. The governor is great, just try flying a couple patterns without one...or flying in turbulence and you really appreciate the work it does for you.

 

I've seen it before in the 22....you might be afraid to step on it when you need to control the aircraft. Just hover downwind in 10-12 knot winds and see how quick and assertive you need to be on the pedals to keep it straight. There are a lot of opinions about the 22, but I guarantee that everyone agrees it does take a certain "feel" to really fly it, and gaining that feel is different for everyone. 40 hours would not be all that unusual to get a feel for it.

 

Now here is the really tough part. You get to a point where you don't really gain a lot of confidence flying dual...and you are probably there. Solo flights, while a bit scary at first, really take you leaps and bounds each flight.

 

After EVERY single flight I go over the flight in my head, and make a conscious effort to identify every mistake I made on that flight. oops, forgot to set the transponder to ALT, maybe I didn't call ATC quite quick enough, maybe I sat on the runway too long, didnt understand a controller and had to ask to verify...whatever it was I make a mental note of it, so I don't do it again !

 

I think you need some of those experiences solo for you to really build confidence. Good luck,

Goldy

[slick1537]

I'm not going to read everyones responses but I will add my two cents. I think everyone has some parts of flying that they struggle with. Things will progress with time if you just stick with it! Believe me my thing is that I keep forgetting to dump the carb heat on approach. I feel your frustration as I just started instrument training and its like learning to fly all over again, you want to make the aircraft do one thing, so you adjust the controls, and it ends up in a nose dive, or you start climbing.

 

I would not quit. Practice makes perfect, and your instructor just wants to do it over and over again to ingrain it into your head. Everything will become second nature to you as you get more hours, I would not sweat it.

[beckwith]

You should be doing this if it is fun and you want to continue. but maybe take a few days off go do something different from helis entirely and then come back fresh. sometimes you just need to clear your head.

 

Hang in there.

[tattooed]

HAH! Been there, done that. We ALL have. I am attending a rather large school, and I have spoken to many students/CFI's. Not one has stated they never had a "setback" or "plateu". It's inevitable. You are in that "stage".

 

I suggest you read the topic I started last month. http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/helicopterfor...?showtopic=9371

It turned into quite an educational forum.

 

You are going thru what I, and many others feel, is the MOST difficult "hurdle" of our helicopter career....the middle part of your PVT training where you are transitioning from just barely understanding how to fly this machine, to actually knowing what you are doing and FEELING like you know what you are doing. I just climbed that hill these past few weeks. I am such a different pilot now. It feels incredible. You will get there. I promise!!!!!!

I have not solo'd yet (my school is very structured with training, and I simply haven't gotten to that "point" in my training....hopefully this week, in fact).

Sit down and talk to your instructor. Tell him what you are feeling.

 

Slow down, maybe take a week or 2 off to get your head back. Do some fun activities that have NOTHING to do with helicopters. Try a new hobby...take up an old one. Example...I started rock climbing again. It completely liberated me.

Also, talking about it....this forum is helpful...yes, please moan and whine! It's therapeutic for you. Talk to your friends. Talk to other pilots. They will tell you stories that will make you laugh, and make you realize you are no different...and maybe even better!

 

.....Then, start over. Have your instructor go over basics again. Do some easy hover patterns. Do pickups and set downs until they are what YOU are happy with. WARNING: Do not do the same maneuver more then 3x in a row. Stop, do something else, then come back to it if you need. Trust me on this one.

 

Have him make all the radio calls to reduce your mental workload. BREATHE. Talk thru your maneuver as if you were reading the maneuver guide (assuming you have one). That keeps you breathing (have to breathe to talk), and it communicates not only to YOU, but to your CFI that you know what you are doing, and he can correct you if you are wrong.

 

Instead of having your instructor tell you what you will be working on, tell him you want the next...say...5 flights...to be YOUR choice. Tell him "Monday I want to work on pickups/setdowns, and normal approaches. That's it. Take control of your training. But please be respectful. YOU taking control will help you mentally. Trust me. It works like a charm.

 

Read my topic (posted above). You are not alone. Hey, as least you've solo'd!!!!! More than I can say, and I have alot more hours than you! (at least I think I do...you'll understand......)! LOL

 

 

PM me if you want to chat more.

I can tell you some stories! I've heard it all now since I had my "setback".

You are no different than any of the rest of us, so chin up, hug your wife, relax for a week, and try again refreshed. It's all in your head.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lastly, STOP COUNTING YOUR HOURS. They mean nothing at this point. It will only manage to disappoint you. Once you are comfortable, then check. But for now, plan to spend some $$ "catching up", and forget about the hours. You need 200 to instruct in an R22, so just figure your on your way there.

[Hovergirl]

I would not underestimate the power of a couple of flights with a different instructor. You don't necessarily need to change schools permanently, but see if you can get a recommendation for a good instructor at that farther-away school and take two flights with him/her to work on the basics. Your instructor has probably gotten to the point where he's repeating himself and frustrated that it's not sinking in, when what you really may need is a change in perspective. Someone else will have a different way of seeing what you are doing, a different way of explaining what you should be doing, and you will get someone else's opinion on what you need to work on AND what you are doing right.

 

Take a break from flying, or take a short break from flying with your instructor so both of you can relax and start a little more fresh. Sounds like you are both being too hard on you.

 

I agree you should stop counting the hours and trying to fix too many things at once. Cut down on the stress and everything will be easier.

 

Good luck and have fun up there!

 

HVG

[Darkhorse]

Everyones Plateu's are different, mine was and still is embarrassing to me when i think about it. I kind of learned backwards, I learned straight and level then approaches then hovering. I was feeling really good about my approaches but at the bottom i just couldnt stop. I wouldnt even be fast I just couldnt get the darn Huey to stop when I wanted it to. Part of it I think was being paranoid about dropping my tail to low, one guy I flew with really harped on it to the point thats all I could think about during the whole approach.

The other guy I flew with made me at ease on my approaches and when I stopped concentrating on it I just did it. I still fly with both of them and its many hours later but to this day when I fly with the first guy i still find myself getting tense on approaches, seems silly but thats they way it is.

Anyways, morale of the story is...I like both guys alot they are both great, however they have very different styles and though they both are wanting to help me I clearly learn much more from one than the other. One lets me learn things on my own and saved me whenever I needed it, the other one talked and picked so much I didnt have time to think about what he wanted, much less think about what i was doing and how I could do it better. Good luck you'll get there!

[Tom22]

The others have made good comments and suggestions on your situation. However, I am going to be frank on my opinion.

 

Asking questions in rapid succession is over instructing. It only makes students nervous and when the student is not relaxed learning will not take place. Does this instructor yell or have an offensive tone of voice when he is instructing? If so, it is demeaning and degrades the instructor as much as it does the student. It has been my experience, that those instructors who behave as this one does are also the ones that think they are entitled to somebody’s business and it is their right to talk down to a student. Moreover, they are also the ones that are impatient screamers and get their jollies out of setting a student up for failure.

 

Changing instructors should not be a decision to be taken lightly. However, if an instructor made me feel stupid or incompetent there would be no hesitation to move on. You are not the problem, this instructor needs to find a way to make himself indispensable. Either it needs be a change in his style of instructing or he needs to find away to better motivate you.

[Helidownunder]

After a terrible nights sleep, I woke to read all sorts of great support. Thanks to all - it seems that many have had this type of experience and were encouraged by others to stick at it. It's really good, as where I live there are not many other Heli pilots to share experiences with, also I am "retired" looking after the kids and house stuff, so when what started out to be an ambition turns into a downer and it's all to easy to dwell on things and imagine they're several times as bad as they really are!

 

The pattern of advice that seems to be emerging is slow down, do things at your speed, forget about the hours it will take, verbalise things, go through over and over again, imaginary flights, have a try with another instructor for a couple of lessons, above all don't let the b-----s grind you down.

 

The more I think about the guy that is instructing me, he started out being really encouraging which worked for me, but he's ex forces, needs to be in control and can't understand my nervousness / lack of self belief which he brings up time and again, (which just serves to re-enforce the very thing he is talking about). He has very strong opinions on everything, has listened to my requests about slowing down and repeating what I am finding hard over and over, but has not really followed them through, also the four people that I know of locally who he has got to PPL, are all very "it'll be right mate" attitude and seem to be receptive to strong direction.

 

Tom22 - I think you may be right about the over instructing thing, I get totally mixed up as to what I should be doing. The other thing he does is, if things are going well - there is complete silence. So is the idea for me to try to aim for silence from the instructor, so I get a break from the nagging, at a time when what I actually need is re-assurance that I am doing things right?, because if it is, then it's not working for me and surely just adds to my confusion. Yesterday near the end of the lesson we were coming down the runway (grass strip / uncontrolled small aerodrome) into land and I was getting more and more tense, like my forearm muscles were rigid and my arm was just not controlling the cyclic at all well, I asked him to take over and land the thing as I was so tense, but he stayed silent and refused - he forced me to land to prove I could do it, which I guess he did prove, BUT, I was sincere in my request as I was on the edge of panic and that really was the turning point - I don't feel that he has empathy with me and just wants to break me, like breaking in a horse, into submission - is that really good instructing?

 

Hovergirl - I am going to take up your suggestion and try to get a recommendation for another instructor to have a couple of lessons with, I am sure this will help to break the cycle of both our frustration with lack of progress. Also some time out might be good!

 

Darkhorse - really interesting about your problem with dragging the hueys tail - I crewed at a helicopter competition a few weeks ago - the local air force were taking part - there was one part of the event where one chain 2 metres long was attached to one skid and one 3 metres long was attached to the other, the idea was to hover taxi along a 1 metre wide marked area do a 360, come back sideways etc etc - guess what..... all the r22's, 44's even a ec120 did fine, the poor guy in the huey dragged the tail along the ground and had to retire from the event - my guess is that it's just too big for that?!!

 

Everyone else - yes I am going to take a break and do things the way I want to.

 

Tattoed - I'll read your other posts and PM you later.

[Tom22]

Tom22 - I think you may be right about the over instructing thing, I get totally mixed up as to what I should be doing. The other thing he does is, if things are going well - there is complete silence. So is the idea for me to try to aim for silence from the instructor, so I get a break from the nagging, at a time when what I actually need is re-assurance that I am doing things right?, because if it is, then it's not working for me and surely just adds to my confusion. Yesterday near the end of the lesson we were coming down the runway (grass strip / uncontrolled small aerodrome) into land and I was getting more and more tense, like my forearm muscles were rigid and my arm was just not controlling the cyclic at all well, I asked him to take over and land the thing as I was so tense, but he stayed silent and refused - he forced me to land to prove I could do it, which I guess he did prove, BUT, I was sincere in my request as I was on the edge of panic and that really was the turning point - I don't feel that he has empathy with me and just wants to break me, like breaking in a horse, into submission - is that really good instructing?

 

 

No, you are not an animal and forcing you into submission as if you are a horse is not is good instruction. No, the ideal is not to get complete silence when you are doing things well. Your instructor needs to give you praise when do and create a positive learning environment. He needs to understand your anxiety and give you special instruction on how to relieve it. For example, he needs to reinforce your enjoyment for flying and how this has been a dream of yours. He should not always point out the negatives of faulty performances but the satisfaction one gets from being able to fly a helicopter.

 

The occasional watch your altitude or watch your airspeed comment when you slip up is needed and acceptable. However, constant nagging is completely unacceptable and is not good instruction.

[Helidownunder]

OK so with all the great help and encouragement from you all, I've made my mind up as to what would probably work best for me

 

1. NOT GIVE UP, because when I do get it right, it feels unbelievably great.

 

2. Finish all my written exams as I've only got one to go.

 

3. Tell my current instructor that I will be stopping my training with him, for the time being. I never like to "close a door" completely - I might well find that it's mostly me!

 

4. Take a break and take the time to try another instructor and look carefully for a course, which can proceed at a pace to suit me, to finish off what I so want to acheive.

 

5. Assuming I find (4), go for it as soon as funds allow.

 

6. Armchair fly as much as possible - but only after the kids have gone back to school - their hilarity at watching me flying an armchair will just be too embarassing....

 

Thanks all so much, especially those who have PM'd me, you're a great bunch

Edited April 20, 2008 by Helidownunder

[tattooed]

Excellent! Sounds like you have really thought it thru, and made a plan....always the best way to handle stress and problems.

 

You already sound better in the attitude of yoru typing....you can read into (pun intended!) people's state of mind by how they type.

 

 

Please keep us posted on your progress and experience. This should prove helpful to others as well as yourself. I think you'll be just fine.

[Chopperjess]

Yes! Please let us know how it's all going for you!

 

Goodluck and don't give up!

[Helidownunder]

Thanks for that, I will keep you posted.

 

Talked to my instructor and he couldn't have been more understanding! Really helpful and we had a long chat about how outside pressures can affect our flying - AND instructing. Turns out he has things going on that I assume, though he didn't say so, are affecting him. So maybe I have been a bit hasty, though I think it's still a good idea to try another instructor and then go back if it is just me and agree the best strategy on which we BOTH have our say.

 

Just got my next exam pass with only a couple of questions wrong, absolutely stoked, so only one to go now before I continue with the practical side and eventually get my PPL.

 

keep enjoying the flying.....

[Crusty Old Dude]

HAH! Been there, done that. We ALL have. I am attending a rather large school, and I have spoken to many students/CFI's. Not one has stated they never had a "setback" or "plateu". It's inevitable. You are in that "stage".

 

I suggest you read the topic I started last month. http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/helicopterfor...?showtopic=9371

It turned into quite an educational forum.

 

You are going thru what I, and many others feel, is the MOST difficult "hurdle" of our helicopter career....the middle part of your PVT training where you are transitioning from just barely understanding how to fly this machine, to actually knowing what you are doing and FEELING like you know what you are doing. I just climbed that hill these past few weeks. I am such a different pilot now. It feels incredible. You will get there. I promise!!!!!!

I have not solo'd yet (my school is very structured with training, and I simply haven't gotten to that "point" in my training....hopefully this week, in fact).

Sit down and talk to your instructor. Tell him what you are feeling.

 

Slow down, maybe take a week or 2 off to get your head back. Do some fun activities that have NOTHING to do with helicopters. Try a new hobby...take up an old one. Example...I started rock climbing again. It completely liberated me.

Also, talking about it....this forum is helpful...yes, please moan and whine! It's therapeutic for you. Talk to your friends. Talk to other pilots. They will tell you stories that will make you laugh, and make you realize you are no different...and maybe even better!

 

[snip]

I like what tatooed said, and I'll add my 2 cents as a non-pilot (so far). I had a phase during firefighting training called the SCBA maze. You put on a black mask, go on air, and negotiate a tough maze with only feel and sound. It's tough. At the end of one particularly hard day in the academy, I had to sit in the tub and relive the time I got stuck in the maze for about an hour...scared the hell out of me. And just like you, it's because there is a real fear that the worst-case scenario could happen.

 

But it is indeed like tat said...it's a phase and you either crash through it or it owns you. IF it owns you (big IF here) then maybe that's the time when someone decides it isn't for them. Perfectly acceptable. In my case, I had to decide if I was okay with dying due to lack of air someday as a firefighter. I guess I decided I'd cross that bridge when I came to it.

Edited April 23, 2008 by Crusty Old Dude

[tattooed]

Interesting! I absolutely agree and insist that you fly with a different instructor...even just once or twice. You will receive so much feedback, and, as I have stated before, you will gain confidence when you fly with a different person. AND, if they have a difference in weight...even 25 lbs difference, you'll feel it. Give you a whole different perspective!