Windy Conditions and the new Pilot

[Kelly N.]

Hey all,

 

I've had a few lessons recently that were in pretty gusty conditions (some with significant direction shifts and gusts) and, although I did learn from the experience, the biggest lesson was that I am sooo not ready to fly in windy conditions (shameless plug - see my latest blog entry for the details http://www.verticalreference.com/helicopte...ima/index.php?).

 

It got me wondering about whether or not there is a relatively common time period over which the average pilot gets more comfortable in gusting conditions and what that might have been for students and experienced pilots alike on this forum.

 

My CFI indicated it could realistically be 100-150 hours before I would be comfortable flying in gusty conditions where the wind is blowing from 8-17kts (9kt gust spread) which makes sense to me (believe me, I'm the cautious type and want to fly for a long time so, I won't be pushing it).

 

Anyway, just curious if others on this board would contribute some of their experiences with how many hours they had before they felt in control and capable of flying safely in varying wind conditions.

 

For instance, just to start the discussion I'll throw out some numbers for wind conditions:

 

Hours Conditions

 

?? 10kts steady

?? 15kts slight gusts (5kt spread)

?? 5-15kts gusting

?? 5-15kts gusting, variable direction (30-50*)

 

 

 

Thanks and looking forward to any feedback or experiences I (and maybe others) can learn from.

 

Kelly

[Witch]

Still don't.

 

Maybe someday? Actually, I have this strong sense of self preservation, and so I try to not push it much. Even with off-airport stuff, I still become reluctant to land on something other than level asphalt. As for the wind, it still gets squirrelly enough to question whether it's a good idea to fly.

 

One neat thing though: One time the wind was about 10kts or so, and doing a max performance takeoff caused a little concern because as we were climbing, we were going backwards. Talk about disorienting.

 

Later

Edited May 22, 2008 by Witch

[helifire136]

The best advise i can give is the more you fly in windy/gusty conditions the more comfortable you will be. I trained in Texas where its always windy! 21021G32KT is nothing new to me, although it is still a challenging flight condition for me. The most difficult part is hovering maneuvers. En route isn't usually as tough. Just remember to avoid circumstances that can lead to loss of tail rotor effectiveness...

 

The school where i trained had a solo policy of no more than 15KT wind with no more than a 5KT spread. Although i had to wait two weeks for my first solo as a result of this rule i still feel these are some pretty good guide lines to consider. No matter how many hours you rack up, your always going to get blown around in a training helicopter in windy/gust conditions. I promise that you will become more comfortable soon. Just keep plugging away and absorb as much from bad winds as you can. remember, the wind is your friend...

[lwalling]

I really don't mind heavy winds, and to be honest was never uncomfortable with wind during my private training.

 

About the worst I've seen is 40kts which is pretty extreme.

 

Here's my take:

 

The basics apply,

 

Always land and take off into the wind. If you plan to turn the aircraft at all at ground level in heavy winds, plan ahead for whats coming or don't do it at all depending on conditions (that 40kts example for instance). When you set down, leave the aircraft pointed into the wind.

 

I really don't see a reasonably strong headwind as an obstacle to safety, unless you're flying in mountainous terrain or something which of course adds additional (significant) variables. Really, in most emergency situations a good wind is your friend - think about all that extra energy you'd have in the event of an engine failure for instance!

 

To each his own, but getting stuck in windy conditions is a fact of life flying an aircraft. Get out with your CFI more often in those light 10-15kts winds assuming there are no other safety factors involved. Get a feel for controlling the aircraft in it, it's really not as bad as it may seem.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Hey all,

 

I've had a few lessons recently that were in pretty gusty conditions (some with significant direction shifts and gusts) and, although I did learn from the experience, the biggest lesson was that I am sooo not ready to fly in windy conditions (shameless plug - see my latest blog entry for the details http://www.verticalreference.com/helicopte...ima/index.php?).

 

It got me wondering about whether or not there is a relatively common time period over which the average pilot gets more comfortable in gusting conditions and what that might have been for students and experienced pilots alike on this forum.

 

My CFI indicated it could realistically be 100-150 hours before I would be comfortable flying in gusty conditions where the wind is blowing from 8-17kts (9kt gust spread) which makes sense to me (believe me, I'm the cautious type and want to fly for a long time so, I won't be pushing it).

 

Anyway, just curious if others on this board would contribute some of their experiences with how many hours they had before they felt in control and capable of flying safely in varying wind conditions.

 

For instance, just to start the discussion I'll throw out some numbers for wind conditions:

 

Hours Conditions

 

?? 10kts steady

?? 15kts slight gusts (5kt spread)

?? 5-15kts gusting

?? 5-15kts gusting, variable direction (30-50*)

 

 

 

Thanks and looking forward to any feedback or experiences I (and maybe others) can learn from.

 

Kelly

[lwalling]

I must be a weird low time guy. I live for a challenge. I like to think I'm a decent risk manager and am mindful of the risk involved with each situation as well, certainly, helicopter flight has made me question just how good I am a few times but luckily nothing to extreme.

 

Off airport landings are a good time for me! Thats what we have helicopters for, landing on asphalt and concrete is for fixed wing guys! . (Just kidding.)

 

Still don't.

 

Maybe someday? Actually, I have this strong sense of self preservation, and so I try to not push it much. Even with off-airport stuff, I still become reluctant to land on something other than level asphalt. As for the wind, it still gets squirrelly enough to question whether it's a good idea to fly.

 

One neat thing though: One time the wind was about 10kts or so, and doing a max performance takeoff caused a little concern because as we were climbing, we were going backwards. Talk about disorienting.

 

Later

[Gomer Pylot]

When I was just starting, my instructor took me to a confined area on the edge of a cliff, with mesquite trees all around, and told me to hover. We kept going back, and when I could hover it there, in a pretty strong gusty wind, then he took me to the stagefield and we started traffic patterns and autos. I've never been especially uncomfortable in wind, because the helicopter doesn't even know the wind is blowing, it's just airspeed. Over the years I've landed in very gusty winds of over 50 knots, on small helidecks offshore, and it's just a matter of working and concentrating. I don't think anyone can tell you how many hours it would take for you to be comfortable, because it's your comfort level,, and nobody else's. Everybody is different, so your question really has no answer.

[PhotoFlyer]

Me personally, the wind bothered me up until about 50 hours.

 

My students have no choice but to get comfy with the wind. A calm day here is 15 knots, and less than 10 is downright beautiful. Last night we flew with 12G19 at the surface, and 30+ at 500 feet with 20 knot wind shear on the airspeed indicator. If you fly in a calm area of the country, maybe somewhat wild, but here it is just another day at the office.

 

I have flown in 55+ knots, and would consider startup/takeoff in a 300C with 35 knots. For the record, I didn't take off in 55+ knots, it came up while returning from Wyoming.

[Goldy]

Hey all,

 

I've had a few lessons recently that were in pretty gusty conditions (some with significant direction shifts and gusts) and, although I did learn from the experience, the biggest lesson was that I am sooo not ready to fly in windy conditions

 

Kelly

 

It depends...there is wind and then there is wind. Tonight in LA is 70MPH in the canyons. What you are flying makes a huge difference as well. The little R22 you feel 7MPH. I wouldnt even notice it in the 44 or 47. Wind gusts hit you, you just slow down ( I do.) 65KIAS is the magic number and then you just pretty much hang on and dont overcontrol. Forget the altimeter and VSI..just maintain attitude and somewhere around 60-65 and you can make it through. Remember the ship can usually handle a lot more than the pilot.

 

What still gets me a bit is thermals. They hit sudden and now I am climbing 2000FPM with airplanes flying over me ! Really, a steady wind is your friend. Remember as a student you should not be in the air with over 15 knots of wind OR 10 knot gusts (R22). If you are a brand new solo student I would not recommend the 22 over 10 knots ! The 300 handles it a lot better. As far as time, like Gomer said there is no set rules. I think I felt pretty good in a 22 at 100 hours or so. I have flown the 22 in 30 knots, but it was pretty steady wind...no problem. However, my personal minimums I wont take off if its blowing over 20...and then I stay out of the passes where the winds are channeled even faster. Larger ships allow for higher limits.

 

http://www.robinsonheli.com/srvclib/rchsn32.pdf

[500E]

My instructor must have been the same as GPs we flew wind or not, his comment was "the wind blows get used to it " he would land in the corners of fields with hedges 3ft from canopy 15\20 Kt wind gusting and say off we go then.

wind has not worried me unduly just a heavier work load on hover\landing.

Flying into wind with lorries overtaking below in the 300 was a fact of life.

As was mentioned fly in your comfort\experience zone, fly with a more experienced pilot\instructor, in conditions you would not be at ease with on your own, this will allow you to get the extra knowledge to cope with the unexpected.

[Wally]

"Comfortable" in the wind? Never- it's always work, even in a smooth wind at cruise, fuel and ET.

"Confident" is another question entirely, and that depends on what I'm flying, aircraft and task. The helo doesn't know if the wind's blowing or not, gusts and turbulence aside.

Generally speaking, I'm more confident in something with more than 2 main rotor blades.

Starts and shutdowns are probably the biggest issue, less control and divided attention. Parking with the nose into the wind and/or away from verticals is very helpful.

There are terrain conditions that demand caution, the lee of mountains and big structures, for instance. There's ways to work some of these, and there's times when I won't even try.

Practice makes you better and experience makes you more confident, but getting slammed around's never comfortable.

[kodoz]

At this stage of training, deciding whether to fly in winds/gusts needs to be a balance between training value and risk. I'm at 170 hours in the R22 now. For a dual lesson, I'll go out if the winds are 20 gusting ~9 knots). But at this point I'm not going to choose to be out in those conditions.

 

I have done a few lessons just to learn to deal with the wind. On one flight, we went out in 20+ winds just to learn how to use updrafts and winds on pinnacles and confined areas. And I've done just hovering maneuvers in high winds.

 

I also noticed a big change in my confidence and control between my private and commercial training. I think part of that was the focus on aircraft control during instruments.

--c

[Gomer Pylot]

Gusts and thermals can be uncomfortable, but helicopters handle them much better than most fixed wing aircraft. The high 'wing loading' helps a lot - those itty-bitty thin wings spinning around aren't affected nearly as much as thick, fat wings with lots of lift, moving slowly in a straight line. It can get uncomfortable in a helicopter, of course, but comfort and safety aren't necessarily the same thing. It's mostly a matter of familiarization, and you can get used to almost anything in time.

[Kelly N.]

Thanks to everyone for the great responses, insight, and advice so far.

 

I do train in an R-22 and I've decided I'm going to stick out the rough conditions in the future for as long as my CFI is comfortable. Trial by fire I guess.

 

I haven't soloed yet, but I'll be much more conservative about the conditions I fly in when I'm by myself (and I'm sure my CFI will be just as conservative if not more).

 

Once again, excellent advice and I appreciate everyone who posted with their experience and insight.

 

Kelly

[heligirl03]

Wind just makes you work harder, gotta remember it's increasing your stress level whether you like it or not. Bigger helicopter makes wind feel smaller.

 

I didn't fly much above 12kts during my private, it just wasn't productive to fight the wind while trying to learn basic maneuvers. According to my logbook I got stuck out in 14kts at about 12hrs and 10G20 around 40hrs. I have never been afraid of wind, don't mind the cabin bobble at all, just wanted to get the most out of my training. There were definitely a few days I went out purposely with my instructor to play in the wind and that was the point of the lesson. Immediately after PPL, I worked on my Instrument during the winter months and learned not to care much if the wind was anywhere under 30kts as long as I had the ceiling. Gotta love the R22 on a glide slope with 25kts coming at you from everywhere but off the nose. Around 150hrs now, getting close to finishing my CPL req'ments, I don't mind wind really but sometimes it's a pain for autos and I'm still not into spending $235/hr if I'm just gonna work way too hard and not get what I want out of the flight. Two days ago was 18G40...I stayed home and studied.

[starland_pilot]

I know what you mean -- in Atlanta yesterday, we had somewhat variable winds at 9 kts that were gusting up to 21 kts. When I picked up the little R22, felt sort of like riding a bucking horse. When I nosed into the wind in a hover, I was going in and out of effective translational lift -- what fun on the collective! Although I was determined not to back down and go for a spin about the city, there was a problem with the communication trigger on the cyclic (could hear but not talk to the tower!). Honestly, I felt "someone up there" was looking out for me, and I was relieved to hover taxi back to the ramp and call it a day. By the way, this is my first post -- I've been chipping away toward my commercial rating, with 130 hours thus far

 

 

Hey all,

 

I've had a few lessons recently that were in pretty gusty conditions (some with significant direction shifts and gusts) and, although I did learn from the experience, the biggest lesson was that I am sooo not ready to fly in windy conditions (shameless plug - see my latest blog entry for the details http://www.verticalreference.com/helicopte...ima/index.php?).

 

It got me wondering about whether or not there is a relatively common time period over which the average pilot gets more comfortable in gusting conditions and what that might have been for students and experienced pilots alike on this forum.

 

My CFI indicated it could realistically be 100-150 hours before I would be comfortable flying in gusty conditions where the wind is blowing from 8-17kts (9kt gust spread) which makes sense to me (believe me, I'm the cautious type and want to fly for a long time so, I won't be pushing it).

 

Anyway, just curious if others on this board would contribute some of their experiences with how many hours they had before they felt in control and capable of flying safely in varying wind conditions.

 

For instance, just to start the discussion I'll throw out some numbers for wind conditions:

 

Hours Conditions

 

?? 10kts steady

?? 15kts slight gusts (5kt spread)

?? 5-15kts gusting

?? 5-15kts gusting, variable direction (30-50*)

 

 

 

Thanks and looking forward to any feedback or experiences I (and maybe others) can learn from.

 

Kelly

[Gomer Pylot]

Wind is the best help you can get for autos. With the wind on the nose, or close, you can do zero ground run autos easily. I almost always want some wind blowing, because it makes everything easier. You can get too much of a good thing, of course, but 10 or 15 knots of steady wind makes life a lot easier for a helicopter pilot, no matter what you're doing.

[HeloJunkie]

I fly out of Carlsbad California and like Goldy pointed out, the winds around this area can be mild in one area and gusting in another only a few miles away. I wrote about my first experiences with 20 knot winds gusting to 28 knots. Until purchasing my R44, I really was more of a fiar weather, low wind pilot in helicopters. While I would never think twik about high or cross wind situations in my plane, I was always uneasy in the 300.

 

One day we were heading to Ramona and the ATIS was 20 knots gusting to 28 and I told my instructor that we should head back to Carlsbad. He laughed and basically told me the same thing I am sure many us have heard - hey - don't let a little wind keep you from fly. This is the same thing I have been telling my fixed wing students for 20 years, how apropos! As my instructor pointed out, what are you going to do when you leave a nice calm airport only to return a couple of hours laster with strong winds...?

 

In any case, we pressed on and I spent the next couple of hours doing all types of maneuvers in those gusting winds. At the end of two hours, I was ready for a beer 9or something stronger) but I felt much better than I had earlier. Since then, I have never allowed the wind to dictate my training schedule and in fact, head out more often in the wind. I have found that the more hover work and flight work I do in the wind, the better pilot I feel I am becoming and frankly, I look like a fantastic pilot with no wind

 

I took the opportunity to fly ou to a boy scout campout in the desert a little bit ago and on the day we were all departing, the winds were 40 knots! I was sweating like you would not believe, but I did a great job of firing up and flying away in that wind (even had a friend that video taped the takeoff) and during the flight home I was showing around 100 kias while only 40 knots on the GPS...the wind was something esle, but had I not been going out in the wind, I would never have been prepared for that trip.

 

Am I comfortable today in the wind..? Not as much as I would like to be for sure, but I feel I am safe...and from here I can take time to move to comfortable!

[Copterpilot213]

Yeah I agree, it's a hard question to answer, it's different for everyone and it involves a LOT of variables. In my own experience I remember flying in some pretty gnarly winds (I think it was around 25 knots) at about 90 hours with my instructor (he enjoyed making me do a lot of pedal turns that day lol).

 

My instrument checkride was in pretty high winds, basically right below the robinson maximums (and my personal solo maximums) that applied to me at the time. My CFI checkride was in 12 gusting 28 knots (I had 219 hours), which was pretty fun! The DPE actually asked me if I wanted to do the flight portion the next day, but I was very comfortable with those kind of winds so it was no problem, just a lot of crabbing. Also the full down auto had no ground slide.

 

Bottom line: You'll get used to it when it's your time, the wind can be your friend and your enemy. Respect it as well as learning and respecting your own personal limitations and you'll do fine!

 

-Jeff

 

P.S. In my experience a lot of the time the winds on the surface will be less than the winds at 500'. There are less things to slow the wind down the higher you go.

Edited May 23, 2008 by Copterpilot213

[lwalling]

I didn't notice until now where you're training. My ship is getting an OAS installed at LHZ as I type this.

 

Get used to the wind, your check-ride will throw in more real world stuff than you may be planning ahead for.

 

Thanks to everyone for the great responses, insight, and advice so far.

 

I do train in an R-22 and I've decided I'm going to stick out the rough conditions in the future for as long as my CFI is comfortable. Trial by fire I guess.

 

I haven't soloed yet, but I'll be much more conservative about the conditions I fly in when I'm by myself (and I'm sure my CFI will be just as conservative if not more).

 

Once again, excellent advice and I appreciate everyone who posted with their experience and insight.

 

Kelly

[Kelly N.]

I didn't notice until now where you're training. My ship is getting an OAS installed at LHZ as I type this.

 

Get used to the wind, your check-ride will throw in more real world stuff than you may be planning ahead for.

 

 

 

Yeah, I think the feedback is all leading me to the conclusion that I need to suck it up and get used to it.

 

Where do you normally fly out of?

 

I'm flying again on Sunday (after a pretty crappy performance on Thursday a.m. - I was about as tense as I've ever been and my arm was already sore from fighting the cyclic in the wind the day before). Wind or not, I'll be flying on Sunday.

 

Maybe I'll see you around!

 

Kelly

[lwalling]

Yes, definitely get used to it - or you won't be flying much at all. Plus, your DPE will really pound on you, on real world helicopter operations not "airplane stuff" you might be practicing.

 

Don't worry if you have a "crappy performance" during training. Realize your faults in flight, and learn to overcome them with the help of your instructors and this message board. If you can't figure something out throw up a post! . I learn best by seeing and then doing - myself.

 

I keep my 44 at SVH or on the pad at my house about 7nm to the SW but fly it all over the place. It's a blast.

 

I worked with the NCRW guys out of Salisbury for my training (RUQ) but have been out to your neck of the woods plenty of times.

 

If you're ever out this way let me know I'll take you for a ride in my 44.

 

Yeah, I think the feedback is all leading me to the conclusion that I need to suck it up and get used to it.

 

Where do you normally fly out of?

 

I'm flying again on Sunday (after a pretty crappy performance on Thursday a.m. - I was about as tense as I've ever been and my arm was already sore from fighting the cyclic in the wind the day before). Wind or not, I'll be flying on Sunday.

 

Maybe I'll see you around!

 

Kelly

[Gomer Pylot]

Flight training hasn't changed much in the past 50 years. People start off knowing little or nothing, and without the necessary skills to fly or hover. That's why the training is necessary. Everybody is tense, everybody has bad days, and everybody feels overwhelmed. Some people learn more quickly than others, and some should never start in the first place. The military has tried to prevent starting these out by using aptitude tests, with mixed results at best. Pretty much anybody can learn to fly, but some will spend more time and money than others. You can get used to almost anything, with enough exposure and experience. Just keep at it, and you'll learn to deal with the wind, it's just another part of flying. "It's an ill wind that blows no good".

[Goldy]

I keep my 44 at SVH or on the pad at my house about 7nm to the SW but fly it all over the place. It's a blast.

 

Allright, I admit it...I'm only a little bit jealous right now !

I think every pilot wishes he had a place where he could fly home and set it down on the yard...just keep giving free rides to all the neighbors !

 

Goldy

[FredR]

Was on a fire last year with 43 knots of wind. Ship lifted the bucket and longline like no one's business...however, the turbulence started getting a little out of hand so I called it as did the rest of the gang. (Forest Service guidlines are 40 knots max for type 2 and type 1 aircraft as is a max gust spread of 15 knots) Something to keep in mind, (Wally addressed this earlier) in mountanious terrain and also urban settings (big buildings) the turbulance that can accompany higher wind conditions can be more than you or sometimes the aircraft can handle. Got the crap scared out of me more than once in the mountains in windy conditions.

[Goldy]

Last year during the Malibu fires, I watched many larger ships in 50 gusting to 70 knot winds. Mostly blackhawks (firehawks), our H3 and the Skycranes. They all made it look easy, I was on the ground looking up....and glad to be on the ground!