Bighead Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 I was arrested and charged with DUI but my conviction was reduced to 1st degree Negligent Driving. My BAC was a .12 but that evidence was later suppressed by the court due to technicalities. As a result, my driver license was never suspended. I know that under 61.15 that a DUI conviction and/or license suspension must be reported to the FAA in writing. I have also read that a reduction to wreckless, careless or negligent driving is not considered a reportable MVA (besides under part 67, on the medical application 8500-8). Where my confusion ensues is, since 1st degree negligent driving is typically still considered an alcohol related offense, am I required to report it in writing like I would be required to report a DUI conviction? Or do I just need to disclose it when I go to renew my medical? Thanks 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) You would need to consult the FAA or an attorney who is knowledgeable. One of the primary reasons being that State laws vary greatly. For example in CA there is no such thing as "1st Degree Negligent Driving" So for that, I would have to shrug my shoulders and say "I dunno..." You would have to contact someone familiar with the elements of what that means respective to what state the case was handled in. Your state may consider that a lesser crime than a DUI but may still classify it as a DUI. Whereas a state where that violation does not exist may call it something else. One thing to look at is that in most states, multiple DUI convictions turn into Felonies punishable by prison time (not county jail). Does an alcohol related First Degree Negligent qualify as a conviction towards that count? Did you have a Public Defender or a private Defense Attorney? If it was a private attorney, that may be a place to start to get the information on whether that state still considers it a lesser DUI offense. Depending on what you dig up there, someone at FAA legal or your FSDO would have to look at it also and determine if it meets the DUI standard or not. Clear as mud? Edited January 12, 2015 by Flying Pig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bighead Posted January 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Thanks for chiming in. The event and conviction took place in WA state. I hired a DUI defense attorney to handle my case and as far as I know, an adjudicated DUI charge can still count as a prior if charged with another DUI (which i'm going to make sure NEVER happens again). But as far as the sentencing goes, it was treated as nothing more than a Neg 1. I contacted several resources about the matter: AOPA: after explaining everything, the individual at AOPA medical consultations believes I would only have to report it on the medical app under question 18v. Local AME: he was unsure, mainly because he is unfamiliar with Neg 1 as it is not an OR statute to the best of his and my knowledge (I just moved from WA to OR). He recommended reporting it regardless, just to cover my butt. FAA RFS in Renton, WA: the analyist I spoke to was unsure, since it technically is not a DUI conviction but still considered an alcohol-related offense under WA state law. They suggested I send the report to them if I want to have it "pre-checked" before renewing my medical. Local aviation attorney: left message with receptionist, waiting to hear back from attorney on the subject. Something else that came to mind is that I am able to check my status in the NDR to see what all is listed there, since that is where the FAA would go to check my record regarding my response to question 18v on the 8500-8 form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bighead Posted January 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2015 I contacted FAA Security and Investigations, which is where the report/notification would go. Sheila told me that as long as I didn't receive a DUI/DWI/OWI etc then I am not required to report my Neg 1 under 61.15. Even a wreckless driving isn't reportable under 61.15, and a Neg 1 is lower than that. She also made sure to stress that I will have to report everything under part 67, on my next medical renewal (which I already knew). By looking at the actual FAA notification letter template, it also does not include a Neg 1 under the convictions examples. Just the various terminologies of a DUI conviction. I told her I just want to make sure i'm not in hot water by not reporting the Neg 1 and she said i'm not required to via notification letter...so I guess i'm just gonna go with that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UH60L-IP Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Here is your absolute answer. You can PM me if you want to know how I know it is absolute fact - not because I've ever been charged with a crime by the way. Yes, you must report it. And for the record, Neg Driving 1st degree is NOT a lesser offense than Reckless Driving. Negligent Driving 2nd degree IS a lesser offense than Reckless Driving. One should not confuse "misdemeanor" and "gross misdemeanor" with the classification of crimes such as "Class A Felony," "Class B Felony," etc. Neg Driving 1st degree IS an alcohol related offense, by definition. It is written into the law under RCW 46.61.5249 (1)(a) "...and exhibits the effects of having consumed liquor..." It is an alcohol related offense that often results in the requirement of an "ignition interlock device" being installed on their vehicle (not always, but does demonstrate the alcohol connection). The moment anyone looks into it they will realize that almost invariably Neg Driving 1st degree is used in a plea agreement for DUI. It is not in practice the original charge. Police officers should not (though some mistakenly do) originally charge Neg 1st and let a driver go. If they do they are in essence stating, "You exhibit the effects of having consumed alcohol but I am just going to write you and let you drive away to possibly kill someone." Officers can actually be held liable for doing that. Until they look into it, many associate Negligent Driving with the more commonly known Neg Driving 2nd degree, which is a "non-criminal" traffic offense (the lesser charge for Reckless). But 1st degree is "criminal traffic" and therefore not a lesser charge. It would go on the same line of the criminal citation as Reckless. Fail to report it if you choose but if you do, when your record is pulled they will yank your certification faster than you can say "revoked." Disclose it now and let them make a decision. Fail to disclose it and you may very well have your certification yanked even if you've been a commercial pilot for years thinking you've pulled the wool over their eyes. ....also, the answer you got from "Sheila" was based upon the way that you formulated the question, not based upon Washington State's or the FAA's interpretation of the offense. "Neg 1" is not an example on the FAA letter - it is an alcohol offense specific to WA state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bighead Posted January 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Pm'd you, UH60 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Ive been curious what state we were talking about.... I figured it would come up eventually Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bighead Posted January 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 I mentioned WA in my first response to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 You did... just didnt know if thats where it happened or if tat was the just the FSDO you spoke to. No big deal... Ive just never heard of 1st degree negligence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) I contacted FAA Security and Investigations, which is where the report/notification would go. Sheila told me that as long as I didn't receive a DUI/DWI/OWI etc then I am not required to report my Neg 1 under 61.15. Even a wreckless driving isn't reportable under 61.15, and a Neg 1 is lower than that. She also made sure to stress that I will have to report everything under part 67, on my next medical renewal (which I already knew). By looking at the actual FAA notification letter template, it also does not include a Neg 1 under the convictions examples. Just the various terminologies of a DUI conviction. I told her I just want to make sure i'm not in hot water by not reporting the Neg 1 and she said i'm not required to via notification letter...so I guess i'm just gonna go with that.People will believe what they want to believe………… By what you’ve described and HOW you’ve described it, coupled with a few of the responses, I’ll suggest this; articulate your question in a letter to the FAA and attach the documentation surrounding your conviction and let them reply to you, in writing, where you stand in this matter. DO NOT rely on information gained on the internet. In short, the only way to fully CYA is to get it in writing from the Feds, not from a PM………… Edited January 17, 2015 by Spike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bighead Posted January 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 After receiving new information regarding my case details, I think I am just going to report it. What UH60L said in his post makes sense to me. Plus, i'd rather report it now and see the outcome as a student pilot with less than 5 hours logged than merely hoping i'm in the clear and have it back fire later down the road with actual ratings under my belt that would then be in jeopardy. Not to mention all the $$$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 The same reason I tell people to get a flight physical before they get to far into any training. A friend of mine ended up with about 25hrs and prior to solo learned he had a permanent disqualifying condition. A condition he knew about when he started but he had opted to go with bad advice because it was what he wanted to hear. Always let the powers that be make the call if you have any doubts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobie Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Bighead: I admire your willingness to do the right thing. However, I wouldn't be in such a hurry to disclose anything as you may still have options. As mentioned, you need to hire an attorney with aviation experience to write the FAA and get a written ruling. You may be suprised. Playing armchair lawyer simply disqualifies you faster. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bighead Posted January 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Hobie, thanks. But my question would be, what would the difference be between reporting to be on the safe side vs forking out money to try and get a written ruling? What I mean is, if I report the neg 1 and the result is whatever it is after they look into it, how would it be any different to try to get a ruling? If I go that route and they determine I was supposed to report it, wouldn't I be in the same boat? Not trying to be defensive, i'm just curious as to your train of thought with the idea. Perhaps i'm confused with what you mean by it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Simply, put, you arent the first guy from Washington to apply for a cert with this as an issue. Id guarantee it. Its already been decided. So the answer is there. There is nothing mysterious. You just need to get a hold of the right person. You need to be proactive and get an answer from someone with the authority to make the call. Even getting with an attorney is sketchy. You may not have any liability as far as trying to deceive because you acted in good faith, but it wont change the fact that the FAA will still yank your cert. At most your attorney will shrug and say "Well, the FAA has the ultimate call, sorry" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) The difference is; having a definitive answer in writing vs. waiting to “see” what happens….. Plus, even if you report it, it doesn’t mean somewhere down the line someone may interpret the matter differently and apply their own standard (understand we’re talking about a government agency). This is why it’s important to get it in writing…..Your matter is not the crime of the century and, as already stated by Lt. Pig Dude, the Fed’s have surly dealt with this issue in the past (read precedence). Therefore, while hiring an attorney will be up to you, a simple letter should be all that you need. If anything, join AOPA and get legal counseling for free…… Edited January 17, 2015 by Spike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bighead Posted January 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Thanks, that makes a lot more sense now. I should also add that it's been over 60 days since the conviction. Conviction was on 08/05/14. Originally I thought I was OK that's why I didn't report it. Also, I did just join AOPA and signed up for the "basic" pilot protection services. I'll contact the legal side (already spoke with the medical side) asap but unfortunately that probably won't be until monday or tuesday if they close for MLK Day. So, I should send a letter to security and investigations? Asking what specifically? What all documents should I include? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobie Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Spike and Pig nailed it. Nothing to add but just a bit to clarify my thinking. What you are really asking for is an interpertation of the law as applies to your set of facts -- a binding legal ruling. You have a lot on the line here( time, money, career). If granted and later revoked, you will have a legal situation to defend. Specifically, and already addresed, each state has different laws and it is not clear how they apply to federal reqs. This is why I would enlist an attorney. By submitting all your docs you may, in fact be waiving some of your rights. Like self incrimination. Your court did not admit certain facts and you may or may not have to disclose them now. These subtile details may be the difference for you to live your dream. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 I knew a cfii once with several thousand hours, stuck in Robbies because none of the entry level turbine ops would hire him because of his DUI past. Left the school once for the GOM, came back a month later. I asked why and was told they found out about his dui past. At the time I thought he was a pretty cool instructor, these days however in retrospect I see that a lot of what he "showed" me was pretty reckless. With thousands of entry level pilots out there, why hire someone who has shown he's irresponsible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bighead Posted January 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 Are you trying to tell me I should quit? Or where exactly are you going with this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 Just showing what a difficult road you have ahead on an already very difficult road! Becoming a pilot is easy, its convincing someone that you're worthy of getting paid to do it that's most difficult... and you were three times the legal limit to fly! Put yourself in an operators place and ask yourself, why should I pick him over everyone else who applied? Have a good back up career! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 It's a valid concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 I would find a knowledgeable attorney as previously suggested. The FAA is not out to get you at any point, but there is a right way and many wrong ways to relate to a big agency. Somebody not familiar with existing precedent could initiate a problem with the best of intentions. Perhaps that could be avoided with professional advice. Or you could definitely determine that it is a problem before you waste a lot of time and money on flying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotormandan Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 I knew a cfii once with several thousand hours, stuck in Robbies because none of the entry level turbine ops would hire him because of his DUI past. Left the school once for the GOM, came back a month later. I asked why and was told they found out about his dui past. At the time I thought he was a pretty cool instructor, these days however in retrospect I see that a lot of what he "showed" me was pretty reckless. With thousands of entry level pilots out there, why hire someone who has shown he's irresponsible?The gulf thing is strange. There were quit a few people with dui's in their past down there. I worked at PHI and was surprised to find that there were new hires and pilots that had worked up to IFR captains who had dui's in their past. One had 2. Most from before they were pilots. The thing in common was everyone had told hr at the interview about it. I was told if you didn't it would come up in a background check and they would let you go because you lied. (It was a question asked on the application form). Some of those guys had worked at RLC to start, as a lot of people do, so PHI isn't the only one to hire them. The guy who had 2 actually got hired at RLC but then got let go after training because he hid the fact but then got hired PHI later on. He said he even told them the RLC story. A dui won't ruin your career. You just have to be honest with the companies up front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bighead Posted January 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 I agree, i've given my due diligence in researching that. It certainly isn't a good thing to get one, but it wasn't an end-all in the many cases i've read about. I have A LOT of remorse for the mistake I made on cinco de mayo and it's really taught me a lot. I own my mistake and plan on never repeating it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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