Logging Night Time?

[Ross85]

Hi,

I was going over some regs the other day and then remembered something from my private training that my instuctor told me and I wanted to find where is said it in the regs. From what I remember my instructor told me that to log night time it had to be 1 hr. after sunset to 1 hr before sunrise. The definition of night time in the regs is the time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning if morning civil twilight. And in 61.51 it says you log it as day or night and if night is the time between the end of evenin civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, I would say that is the time to start logging it. So where is the 1 hr before and after for logging night from?

[a94520]

Hi there,

 

seems like you get things confused here.

 

1 hour before and 1 hour after refers to:

 

Sec. 61.57

 

Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.

 

(a) General experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers or of an aircraft certificated for more than one pilot flight crewmember unless that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days, and--

(i) The person acted as the sole manipulator of the flight controls; and

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required), and, if the aircraft to be flown is an airplane with a tailwheel, the takeoffs and landings must have been made to a full stop in an airplane with a tailwheel.

(2) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this section, a person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft under day VFR or day IFR, provided no persons or property are carried on board the aircraft, other than those necessary for the conduct of the flight.

(3) The takeoffs and landings required by paragraph (a)(1) of this section may be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device that is--

(i) Approved by the Administrator for landings; and

(ii) Used in accordance with an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

( Night takeoff and landing experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, and-

(i) That person acted as sole manipulator of the flight controls; and

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required).

 

You are required to proof that in order to take passengers along.

 

The other is the legal definition of night time, which you may log, however, you cannot use a landing after twilight for recency purposes unless it happened an hour later.

 

Hope that explains it.

::rotorhead::

[Ross85]

I think that explained it, Thanks a lot!

[joker]

A94520 is correct.

 

One good way of remembering a regulation is to ask, "Why is that written like that?"  That way you understand it better. (Levels of learning!)

 

So think about it.

 

The authorities need to name a point where day becomes night.  As we all know, at sunset it is still quite light.  So they say, "When the sun is six degrees below the horizon (civil twilight) it is dark enough to make a difference to your flying.  That's when we'll say day has turned to night."

 

"Hold on!," someone said.  "Before a pilot risks flying passengers in the pitch dark on a moonless night, shouldn't he have proof that he is experienced at flying in the dark?  Well according to our regulations at the moment, he could get this experience 2 minutes after civil twilight, and we all know it still isn't really really dark then.  I wouldn't want to be a passenger in his aircraft if that's all he'd done!"

 

"OK," they said, "So then to prove you have experienced enough real darkenss, to take passengers, you must gain that experience one hour after sunset.  At that time it is really really dark!"

 

Hence the two different times w.r.t. night. 1 for logging night in the logbook. (End of Civil Twilight) and one for showing real dark time experience. (1 hour after sunset!)

 

Hope that helps someone!

 

Joker

[SPIFR]

OK, I must be brain dead this morning. The more I read the more I am confused... I have always been night current, so it never occurs to me when I will be not night current... and this is a good topic to confused the hack out of me... Please straightened me out a little.

 

Under 61.57 (It said...)

(2) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this section, a person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft under day VFR or day IFR, provided no persons or property are carried on board the aircraft, other than those necessary for the conduct of the flight. <--- Other than those necessary for the conduct of the flight which means what???

 

Later it also said... (i) That person acted as sole manipulator of the flight controls... <--- huh? Sole manipulator of the controls... kinda contradict the ^^^ about statement... isn't it?

 

I guess I am trying to figure out the night currency... If Pilot A (night current) and Pilot B (not night current) went flying at night together in a 206 and did the 3 T/Os, 3 ldgs (plus all the goodies), can Pilot B log night PIC? (Even tho a 206 don't required dual pilots.)

 

Thanks.

[helopilot2be]

I guess I am trying to figure out the night currency... If Pilot A (night current) and Pilot B (not night current) went flying at night together in a 206 and did the 3 T/Os, 3 ldgs (plus all the goodies), can Pilot B log night PIC? (Even tho a 206 don't required dual pilots.)

 

Thanks.

Yes he can log it.  And yes if you are asking he would be current for the next nights flights.  But he would have also just committed a bust of the FARs on this flight.

I think your confusion on the more than one person deal is that there are some airplanes that require two people.  If two are required two can be on board.  But only one actually flies (ie sole manipulator) at a time.

Chris

[SPIFR]

Yes, I thought I once knew what's what during the glory days... got to love deciphering the FAR/AIM!

 

I understood it as (Correct me if I'm wrong): Yes, Pilot B can log night PIC, etc. BUT it wouldn't be legal, am I right so far? Therefore, technically, Pilot B couldn't log night PIC, since there is another pilot onboard due to:

 

       61.57 where it said (...provided no person... on board the aircraft...)

 

        (2) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this section,

           a person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft under day VFR or day IFR,

           provided no persons or property are carried on board the aircraft, other than those

           necessary for the conduct of the flight.

 

 

Basically, in order to be night current logging PIC, you pretty much have to go fly solo at night with 3 T/O, Ldgs and all the good stuff. (Is that correct? Or is there another way around it?)

 

 

Thanks in advance

[joker]

It seems that you are getting a few things mixed up here.

 

Helopilot2be is correct.  I'l try to expand.

 

In your scenario pilot B does the 3 take off and landings.  You said that technically he 'wouldn't be able to log PIC because he was not legally current'.  This is wrong...

 

...even though you are not legally current, if you do the landings, you've done the landings, haven't you?!  Into your logbook goes 3 TO / Ldgs and, hey presto!, you're current again!  Yes, you have broken the law of 61.57 by manipulating the controls when you aren't current, but it doesn't nullify the TO/Ldgs you did.

 

So here are a few examples.

 

Pilot A is Night Current.  He flies with other people every 30 days at night and does many TO/Ldgs. =

He's OK.

 

Pilot B is night current.  He flies solo every 30 days at night. =

OK

 

Pilot C has not flown for 4 months.  He is not night current.  He goes out with his friend (not a pilot) at night and does 3 TO/Ldgs. =

He has violated 61.57( and (a - for that matter) BUT = He is now legally current to take pax.

 

Pilot D has not flown for 4 months.  He is not night current.  He goes out solo at night and does ldgs/to. =

He is now current to fly night.

 

Pilot E  has not flown for 4 months.  He is not night current.  He goes out with an instructor and does tos / ldgs.  =  

OK now.  If the instructor signs the logbook, he is not considered a passenger.

 

Pilot F is an instructor who hasn't been night for 4 months. =

He must go solo (or with another instructor) before taking any students night.

 

Pilot G is certified for multiple types of aircrafts that require more than one crew member. = This pilot doesn't need to do the night currency in each different type of aircraft so long as he meets the requirements of 61.57(e)(3)

 

Pilot H is working for a 121 company = I won't go into that in detail, just to say that basically if you're working Part 121, 61.57 doesn't really apply to you as Part 121 will supercede.

 

 

Maybe that helps a little.

 

Joker

[SPIFR]

Joker & Helopilot2be,

 

Hee... hee...

 

Now it make some sense... I remembered when I was a CFII, (not current), went and flew with another CFI to get current. But that's years ago, now in a DPIFR program with lots of nights, so it never occurs to me to take one of this big ship out to go fly patterns. Just suddenly came across something so familiar and yet my mind just draw a blank! Must be brain dead!

 

Thank you guys muchie!

[Gomer Pylot]

I fly with other pilots all the time while they're getting night currency, because the aircraft requires 2 pilots. In these, only the PIC has to be night current, the SIC doesn't have to be. That doesn't mean it's safe, though, and I take SICs who aren't current out for night takeoffs and landings, and we don't just do it in the pattern. We go offshore and do the takeoffs and landings there, because that's an entirely different world, and being able to land to a lit runway doesn't mean you can do it to an offshore platform with minimum lighting at 2AM. Legality is one thing, and safety is another. I intend to get back home in one piece, with my certificate also intact.

[eagle5]

Night landings to an offshore platform now that sounds like fun...sign me up! This is the oldest post I could find that looked interesting.

[adam32]

Night landings to an offshore platform now that sounds like fun...sign me up! This is the oldest post I could find that looked interesting.

 

Nothing like dragging up a 9 YEAR OLD THREAD!

[eagle5]

What can I say. Sometimes you really have to dig to find something interesting to talk about.

 

Why do they keep posts for so long anyway?

Edited July 16, 2014 by eagle5

[adam32]

 

Why do they keep posts for so long anyway?

 

So guys that are bored surfing the internet can find them...

[aeroscout]

It seems this age old mystery was solved ages ago.