Fixed wing pilot okay to fly single place helicopter?

[Wannabe1]

I'm being told (actually quite forcefully told) that FAR 61.31 (k) means that all a person needs to fly a single place experimental helicopter is a fixed wing pilot's licence. That you don't need the rotorcraft rating. Can that be true?

Edited December 5, 2008 by Wannabe1

[Tenacious T]

Can I watch?

[1badz32]

this guy assumed the same thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMao1e7f03Q

Edited December 5, 2008 by 1badz32

[Wannabe1]

My feelings exactly, but it might get too ugly for me to actually watch! This is coming from guys building and flying Mosquito single place machines.

 

Can I watch?

[PhotoFlyer]

Have you asked this forceful person to show you the reg that supposedly allows it?

 

At first glance it would seem like 61.31 would allow a person to fly a single place helicopter (or airplane) without a category/class rating in that aircraft.

 

( c) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on the carriage of persons, or operating for compensation or hire. Unless a person holds a category, class, and type rating (if a class and type rating is required) that applies to the aircraft, that person may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying another person, or is operated for compensation or hire. That person also may not act as pilot in command of that aircraft for compensation or hire.

 

So, it seems that you can't carry passengers, or fly for hire, unless you have a rotorcraft helicopter rating. So by omission you CAN fly without a cat/class rating. But wait! You can't stop at section C. Read section D.

 

(d) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on operating an aircraft as the pilot in command. To serve as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must—

 

(1) Hold the appropriate category, class, and type rating (if a class rating and type rating are required) for the aircraft to be flown;

 

(2) Be receiving training for the purpose of obtaining an additional pilot certificate and rating that are appropriate to that aircraft, and be under the supervision of an authorized instructor; or

 

(3) Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown, and have received the required endorsements from an instructor who is authorized to provide the required endorsements for solo flight in that aircraft.

 

Note that D says to serve as pilot in command you have to hold an appropriate cat/class/type rating for the aircraft flown. If you are receiving training you can solo, but only under the supervision of an instructor. Which is a way of saying you need a solo endorsement.

 

So the short answer is no, you cannot fly a single place helicopter unless you have a solo endorsement or are rated in the category and class.

Edited December 5, 2008 by PhotoFlyer

[Wannabe1]

Their hat is being hung on the 61.31 (k) Exceptions (2) The rating limitations of this section do not apply to:( B ) An Experimental certificate, unless the operation involves carrying a passenger

Edited December 5, 2008 by Wannabe1

[Gomer Pylot]

Be sure to have someone with a video camera on hand so the flight can be posted on You-tube. There is always room for one more crash video.

[RockyMountainPilot]

FAR 61.31 (k) Exceptions. (1) This section does not require a category and class rating for aircraft not type certificated as airplanes, rotorcraft, or lighter-than-air aircraft, or a class rating for gliders or powered-lifts.

 

"A special airworthiness certificate in the experimental category is issued to operate an aircraft that does not have a type certificate or does not conform to its type certificate and is in a condition for safe operation."

 

This says a pilot can fly an aircraft without a cat or class rating if the aircraft is experimental. So, the guy is correct. Stupid, but correct. I hope someone has a video camera.

 

I knew a guy that built the first VTOL aircraft to be issued an experimental airworthiness certificate. This was in the late 90's and just before they came out with the Powered Lift rating. He wouldn't be able to fly the thing, because there was no cat or class for the aircraft he built.

 

(2) The rating limitations of this section do not apply to --

 

(i) An applicant when taking a practical test given by an examiner

 

Does not apply

 

(ii) The holder of a student pilot certificate;

 

Does not apply

 

(iii) The holder of a pilot certificate when operating an aircraft under the authority of an experimental or provisional aircraft type certificate;

 

This is for aircraft that have a type certificate, but had been modified from their existing type certificate so that they received an experimental airworthiness certificate. Warbirds often have these.

 

(iv) The holder of a pilot certificate with a lighter-than-air category rating when operating a balloon; or

 

Does not apply

 

(v) The holder of a recreational pilot certificate operating under the provisions of §61.101(h).

 

Does not apply

[500E]

How do you give instruction in a single place machine ??.

Even if you have licence for say a 22\300 how do you convert trial & error ? HOORAY please make sure video is better quality than

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMao1e7f03Q

[Gomer Pylot]

Ideally, you would be able to train in a simulator for a single-place helicopter. Not many of those in existence, though. The K-Max is a single-place helicopter, and after ground instruction and cockpit familiarization, the new pilot cranks it up and flies it. They don't use fixed-wing pilots for those, though, and by the time you have the helicopter time required to get a job flying a K-Max, you're able to fly just about anything with rotors without much if any instruction.

[500E]

Hi GP did not think of K Max was thinking about single experimental would have thought no sims for them, I suppose you could tether the little brutes, or have trainer skids

[FLHooker]

a HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Not a good idea.

[Justin DBC]

this guy assumed the same thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMao1e7f03Q

 

that could happen to anyone. wait... are you not supposed to compensate for right yaw with a strong left cyclic input?

[Goldy]

Wannabe- Hopefully you fully understand by now that exploiting an exception in the rules does not make a pilot that stays alive very long !

 

I like the lil one seater, very cool lil ship if you have the 85hp turbine like this one....I think this one is the "Angel" made in Italy. I met the pilot, he has a couple 25,000 rotor hours flying up in Alaska, and wanted something fun to fly around in retirement.

 

 

Goldy

Edited December 6, 2008 by Goldy

[ironranger]

Goldy, Is that a helicycle?

[RockyMountainPilot]

Wannabe- Hopefully you fully understand by now that exploiting an exception in the rules does not make a pilot that stays alive very long !

 

I like the lil one seater, very cool lil ship if you have the 85hp turbine like this one....I think this one is the "Angel" made in Italy. I met the pilot, he has a couple 25,000 rotor hours flying up in Alaska, and wanted something fun to fly around in retirement.

 

 

Goldy

 

I like to explain to newer pilots that legal and safe do not always coincide.

 

I can legally fly over a lake at 2 feet and 130 knots. Not very safe.

 

I can safely roll a non-aerobatic airplane. Not very legal.

[Goldy]

Goldy, Is that a helicycle?

 

 

Nope...Helisport CH-7 "Angel"

 

This one does not have the Rotax, but a small turbine...sounds way cool.

 

Goldy

Edited December 6, 2008 by Goldy

[devonaire]

Your forceful friend reminds me of the ground-bound old farts who used to say THEY'D go flying in an ultrlight (if they had one) in (pick your poison: high winds, low ceilings, any of the plethora of unsafe conditions in effect at the time).

 

And I never saw ONE of them actually take their own advice......

 

D

[500E]

http://www.ch-7helicopter.com/eng/home.htm

[JoanJet]

this guy assumed the same thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMao1e7f03Q

 

This poor guy... that video is up on so many different sites. He'll never live that one down.

 

 

I like to explain to newer pilots that legal and safe do not always coincide.

 

I can legally fly over a lake at 2 feet and 130 knots. Not very safe.

 

I can safely roll a non-aerobatic airplane. Not very legal.

 

This quote I will remember for the rest of my life! So precise and imagery-full. Thanks.

[jtravis1]

<<<<<<<<

Edited January 25, 2009 by jtravis1

[RockyMountainPilot]

You are correct that by the FAR's you can legally fly an experimental helo with just a private fixed wing rating.......HOWEVER.....in the early 90's they closed this loophole by adding a key limitation to newly issued operating limitations saying that the pilot must be rated to fly the aircraft.

 

If you build and register a experimental ship it will be in there...

 

Anyway....as others have said....it is a REALLY BAD IDEA

 

Reference?

[jtravis1]

<<<<<<<

Edited January 25, 2009 by jtravis1

[Gerhardt]

I was batting messages around w/ another helicopter pilot on another forum and noticed that he was flying the mosquito, a single-seat experimental. When I asked about it he directed me to the website. http://www.innovator.mosquito.net.nz/mbbs2/index.asp

 

Watch the videos and you'll be amazed. I watched a couple of them over and over trying to get a better look because it looked like the pilot had his right arm on the door frame (there are no doors, but for lack of a better description). Then one of the videos had the guy shooting the video explain that the helicopter is so stable...that the pilot had his hand off the cyclic and was controlling the movement solely with the collective and by moving his body weight.

 

One of the videos is of a segment from a tv show where a pilot explains that he had never flown a helicopter before and that it took him all day to learn how to fly the mosquito well.

 

I'm certainly not advocating trying to fly one w/o training. But it looks like the mosquito isn't quite as hard to fly as other helicopters.

 

I'm intrigued, but would also be nervous flying something that sounds like my lawn trimmer at full throttle.

[RockyMountainPilot]

61.31(k)(2)(iii)( B )

 

 

That is the reference I used to show that a private pilot airplane can fly an experimental helicopter without a helicopter class rating.

 

Where is the reference that says an experimental aircraft will have a limitation to only allow rated pilots to operate the aircraft in the limitations section?? I know this is untrue, because I know someone who had a powered lift aircraft certified experimental before a powered lift rating existed.