deerock Posted August 8, 2009 Report Share Posted August 8, 2009 Don't know if anybody saw this yet, as of 10am this morning: http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/08/08/hudson.he...rash/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliZach Posted August 8, 2009 Report Share Posted August 8, 2009 Yeh, I just saw it. Watching the live feed on CNN.com now. There seems to be little information except it was one of Liberty Helicopters tour ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceWater Posted August 8, 2009 Report Share Posted August 8, 2009 Very unfortunate... My thoughts are with the Families.It gets very busy in the Hudson corridor. I've operated there all of last summer and it gets crazy during the weekend especially when the weekend warriors barrel through. All helicopters are always making self announced radio calls there. I wonder what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOATFIXERGUY Posted August 8, 2009 Report Share Posted August 8, 2009 That's just horrible. Be safe out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1badz32 Posted August 8, 2009 Report Share Posted August 8, 2009 sorry to hear, RIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Posted August 9, 2009 Report Share Posted August 9, 2009 CNN is going live with an NTSB briefing any time now. It's 8:01 EDTKarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerock Posted August 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2009 now they are saying that the plane, with engine trouble, hit the helicopter from behind. There are some interesting pics on CNN, but I couldn't find it again to include the link here...it was an actual pic taken probably a second or two after the collision... How awful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerock Posted August 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2009 here's that link, about halfway down the page for the pic after the collision: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/08/n...fter_plane.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashed_05 Posted August 9, 2009 Report Share Posted August 9, 2009 here's that link, about halfway down the page for the pic after the collision: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/08/n...fter_plane.html Did you see some of the rediculous comments left on that link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlatoNC Posted August 9, 2009 Report Share Posted August 9, 2009 I pray for peace for those involved and their families, and that the investigation will shed light on what went wrong and lead to greater safety for pilots and passengers in both commercial and general aviation. Be Vigilant, keep your eyes outside and fly safe everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETTSET99 Posted August 9, 2009 Report Share Posted August 9, 2009 One thing comes to mind traffic avoidance equipment ,I don't fly anything that doesn't have it! guys you can get a AV8OR with blue tooth and a XBR with blue tooth adapter you spend around 2k but its a must! if you cant afford it DON'T FLY better than TIS because its always working not only in terminal areas and the AV8OR is better than garmin because its touch screen! this is a totally unnecessary accident with what's available today in avionicstraffic avoidance really makes me mad at the loss of life, the piper saratoga I fly one and you cant see sh*t below it, the airspace is I believe 1K above the hudson so everyones scud running under the controlled airspace,thats why I fly fix wing only IFR but still only with traffic!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceWater Posted August 9, 2009 Report Share Posted August 9, 2009 That's a fine idea, but you're assuming that everyone is using their transponder or that everyone has a transponder on board. Where I fly most fixed wing don't even have a radio on board. Yes some carry handheld radios but 8 out of 10 of the fixed wing I encounter won't even self announce at all even when I hail them. I'm not saying that it's not worth having, heck anything that can augment the safety of flying is worth having, but it could give you a false sense of security. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcreager Posted August 9, 2009 Report Share Posted August 9, 2009 Rest In Peace.What a wild turn of events. Horrible tragedy, sounds hectic in NY. Can't stand hearing when ships go down with fatal results. Hearts and prayers go out to everyone. Fly safe everybody! Hope they find out what happend and make some safety improvments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick1128 Posted August 9, 2009 Report Share Posted August 9, 2009 I am flying out of the east river this summer. It can be a wild mix at times. However, for the most part the float planes and helicopters operating on the East River and Hudson do communicate quite well. The problem appears to be those pilots who do not operate in these two areas on a regular basis and have little or no knowledge of the system that is in place. The terminal chart does not show the frequencies on the front. Which I believe it should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETTSET99 Posted August 9, 2009 Report Share Posted August 9, 2009 The last several midair's all planes and choppers had transponders Im not worried about some piper cub out in lala land ,look at the last major mid airs all might be avoided with proper equipment .I always tell the major threat to your Flight Safety and Safety management comes first from other aircraft they are the immediate threat to you and are at the top of my list during any flight,then you can go down your list ,terrain,weather,aircraft,co pilot,pilot.....Controlled Airspace begins at 1400 over the Hudson it was also airspace that caused Cory Lido ? death also with a CFII on board this airspace needs to be changed now! its as bad as was the grand canyon years ago you have hi concentration of flights mixed in with some pilots who dont have a clue of what thier doing just flying by the seat of their pants plowing into a heli full of families on vacation and buildings! Guys consider investing in what I told you, you will have made one great choice don't fly without traffic like the saying goes "better safe than sorry!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceWater Posted August 9, 2009 Report Share Posted August 9, 2009 I am flying out of the east river this summer. It can be a wild mix at times. However, for the most part the float planes and helicopters operating on the East River and Hudson do communicate quite well. The problem appears to be those pilots who do not operate in these two areas on a regular basis and have little or no knowledge of the system that is in place. The terminal chart does not show the frequencies on the front. Which I believe it should. Yes I agree, the terminal chart should have the hudson corridor info on the front. I researched what the normal operating procedures were before I even set foot over the Hudson. The only chart that has the info clearly in view is the Helicopter enroute chart. Jetsett, I agree with you, definitly better to be safe than sorry. Still though people make mistakes sometimes. My transponder is a Garmin and in order to set it up for operation I have to hit the ALT button. I admit that sometimes I forget to put it in Altimeter. If an aircraft has all the equipment in the world to ensure your safety, it still wouldn't detect my presence in this situation unless it had a radar, and even a radar can give a lot of false readings depending on your altitide.. Where I work I have to dodge the coast guard, State Police, Air Med, hotel and marina traffic, seagulls, weekend warriors, and countless banner tow-ers that would rather listen to their iPod than communicate on the radio if they even have one on board, and they like to fly right over the pad. This is pretty much all week but it's the worst during the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palmfish Posted August 9, 2009 Report Share Posted August 9, 2009 The last several midair's all planes and choppers had transponders Im not worried about some piper cub out in lala land ,look at the last major mid airs all might be avoided with proper equipment .I always tell the major threat to your Flight Safety and Safety management comes first from other aircraft they are the immediate threat to you and are at the top of my list during any flight,then you can go down your list ,terrain,weather,aircraft,co pilot,pilot.....Controlled Airspace begins at 1400 over the Hudson it was also airspace that caused Cory Lido ? death also with a CFII on board this airspace needs to be changed now! its as bad as was the grand canyon years ago you have hi concentration of flights mixed in with some pilots who dont have a clue of what thier doing just flying by the seat of their pants plowing into a heli full of families on vacation and buildings! Guys consider investing in what I told you, you will have made one great choice don't fly without traffic like the saying goes "better safe than sorry!" TCAS is a great safety tool, but like any system in the aircraft, it's no panacea. It's easy to become complacent when you know that little box is there looking out for you. I can't tell you how many times I've had another aircraft fly by me closer than comfortable, only to have the TCAS alert come 10 seconds after the plane was by me. Between the late alerts and false alerts, sometimes I'm just tempted to turn it off. Accidents like this are tragic. Maybe TCAS could have prevented it, maybe not. Sometimes, it's just going to happen no matter what - that's why we get paid the big bucks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aclark79 Posted August 9, 2009 Report Share Posted August 9, 2009 1400 over the Hudson it was also airspace that caused Cory Lido ? death also with a CFII on board this airspace needs to be changed now! its as bad as was the grand canyon years ago Corey Liddel was on the East River, not the Hudson, on a day when I canceled my flight into the city due to bad weather. They had no one else around them and made a bad error in judgment, and paid the ultimate price for it. Having flown in the NYC corridor I don't think more regulation is the answer, I do think education for fixed wing pilots cruising through the area is key, wheres the AOPA on this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted August 10, 2009 Report Share Posted August 10, 2009 One thing comes to mind traffic avoidance equipment ,I don't fly anything that doesn't have it! guys you can get a AV8OR with blue tooth and a XBR with blue tooth adapter you spend around 2k but its a must! if you cant afford it DON'T FLY better than TIS because its always working not only in terminal areas and the AV8OR is better than garmin because its touch screen! this is a totally unnecessary accident with what's available today in avionicstraffic avoidance really makes me mad at the loss of life, the piper saratoga I fly one and you cant see sh*t below it, the airspace is I believe 1K above the hudson so everyones scud running under the controlled airspace,thats why I fly fix wing only IFR but still only with traffic!!!!!!! TIS takes a few minutes to download after you launch, not much help in this case. Keep your head out, do clearing turns on climbs and descents, I'll probably start doing them on level-off now, too, and do your position reports. If you're in busy airspace, know that there's somebody out there that doesn't see you- Find them first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETTSET99 Posted August 10, 2009 Report Share Posted August 10, 2009 Ok I guess you guys dont understand midairs, go and watch this video!! watch this video then if you think your scan is helpful good luck to you! Traffic avoidance is a must have. http://www.zaon.aero/content/view/36/47/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helopilt Posted August 10, 2009 Report Share Posted August 10, 2009 Hey thanks for that link! Good, informative video. These should be required for all aircraft...I've had a few close calls. You really don't see anything until the last seconds. Now if these could pick up birds too.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick1128 Posted August 10, 2009 Report Share Posted August 10, 2009 (edited) It is apparent that many of the posters on this thread, don't have an understanding of the real situation of this airspace or TCAS. The TCAS units would be giving alerts on almost a constant basis, that I feel that most pilots would very quickly start to ignore them ignore them. Remember the little boy who cried "WOLF" too much? Also TCAS only gives you vertical guidance, so the pilot wouldn't know from where the traffic was coming from. Plus add in the low altitudes, obstructions and controlled, busy airspace above. It is quite possible that a RA in this airspace would put the aircraft into another aircraft above or below it. From the information so far, it appears that the Piper had some sort of engine problem, possibly an engine failure. The information I have heard, indicates that the Piper pilot was initially operating on a Class B clearance and was handed off to Newark. Teterboro lost contact with him and the pilot did not contact Newark. From that information, I am guessing that the pilot of the Piper descended into the Hudson River Exclusion area. Since the pilot was not planning on operating in the exclusion area, he did not make himself aware of the frequencies for it. It is appearing more and more like a 'Wrong Place, Wrong Time" situation. It appears the Piper pilot didn't communicate his situation to anyone and the helicopter pilot was not aware of the situation. Edited August 10, 2009 by rick1128 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETTSET99 Posted August 10, 2009 Report Share Posted August 10, 2009 (edited) I fly with many including Garmin G1000 and 530-430, lots of traffic does show up in congested areas but in no way is it distracting! only when the target turns yellow is it of major importance,let alone I flew a average of 40 IFR hours in the last 6 months many times getting atc traffic calls the units help almost instantly point out the location. Now I agree 100% u need a display like a 496 or AV8OR to give you a easy way of interposing the info from a Zoan XRX unit. I checked with ATC records and didn't find the piper on any clearance he is at fault 100% if he was descending due to a engine issue the lower aircraft on a same heading has the right away (but you will not use this to take advantage of other aircraft) if my rote is correct. I think the climbing left turn makes more sense due to the wing getting ripped off.... Edited August 10, 2009 by JETTSET99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick1128 Posted August 10, 2009 Report Share Posted August 10, 2009 I fly with many including Garmin G1000 and 530-430, lots of traffic does show up in congested areas but in no way is it distracting! only when the target turns yellow is it of major importance,let alone I flew a average of 40 IFR hours in the last 6 months many times getting atc traffic calls the units help almost instantly point out the location. Now I agree 100% u need a display like a 496 or AV8OR to give you a easy way of interposing the info from a Zoan XRX unit. I checked with ATC records and didn't find the piper on any clearance he is at fault 100% if he was descending due to a engine issue the lower aircraft on a same heading has the right away (but you will not use this to take advantage of other aircraft) if my rote is correct. I think the climbing left turn makes more sense due to the wing getting ripped off.... One of the problems with TCAS in steam gauge airplanes is that unless you have a MFD, the TCAS will only give you a traffic warning and a climb or descend command. It doesn't tell you where or at what altitude the traffic is. Also consider that the helicopter was hit from behind, a blind spot for the helicopter, and from above, which due to the long nose of the Saratoga, is a blind spot for the airplane. There was no communications between to two aircraft and the system in the Exclusion areas depends on all parties communicating in a timely, honest and clear manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelFire_91 Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 I checked with ATC records and didn't find the piper on any clearance he is at fault 100% if he was descending due to a engine issue the lower aircraft on a same heading has the right away (but you will not use this to take advantage of other aircraft) if my rote is correct. I think the climbing left turn makes more sense due to the wing getting ripped off.... Yes however, remember that an aircraft in distress has the right away over all other aircraft! Also everyone needs to keep in mind that TCAS and ADS-B are two different units, and operate on different principles. The Garmin Transponder, G1000, GNS430/530 are all ADS-B not true TCAS! and from my understanding ADS-B will not display on anything unless the offending aircraft has a Mode S Transponder. And with anything there are errors in all of them. Nothing should be relied apon enough to take the place of the human eye and brain! We shall see what the eventual outcome is when the final report comes out, but until then who knows who was a fault! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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