auto360 Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 Maybe a worthless thread, though I feel compelled to speak (write)I went to a schools website (won't say which) and it had something on there that said "Helicopter Industry Booming". I'm sorry, come again? I almost find this offensive and its very dissapointing because it was a school that was at the top of my list of attending but to see "Booming", well, it was like a slap in the face. I have checked the jobs list here on VR and there are "on the verge" of no instructor jobs which is a crucial step we almost all need. Ok, I do understand that some jobs are word of mouth and never get posted but still. I suppose I'll just wait a little longer to start. I have saved more than enough for school so money wise I'm good. But...I worked so hard for it that I hate to see it disappear. Too bad I can't get something in the mail from a "higher being" thats say's, "Ok, Matt, its time to start". Well, I have never had illusions that it would be easy. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inferno Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 Heh. This is probably not the case, but in the schools defense, as a web designer, clients rarely update sites. They could have had that tag line from years ago and just never modified it as the economy changed.... And you can't fault a school for being optimistic. If its yor dream to fly, and you have the drive and initiative, why not do it? I blew more in one year of college than I did on getting all the way up to my CFI. Neither options have super job opportunities out of the chute, but one is a hell of a lot more fun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 Judging by the number of EMS job ads I keep seeing, I would have to say that for those out there with around three thousand hours, the industry is "booming"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auto360 Posted November 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 Inferno, your right I'm sure about updates...or the lack there of. And a healthy dose of optimism is always needed. r22butters- there did seem to be a high # of EMS's positions posted...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotormandan Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 Maybe a worthless thread, though I feel compelled to speak (write)I went to a schools website (won't say which) and it had something on there that said "Helicopter Industry Booming". I'm sorry, come again? I almost find this offensive and its very dissapointing because it was a school that was at the top of my list of attending but to see "Booming", well, it was like a slap in the face. I have checked the jobs list here on VR and there are "on the verge" of no instructor jobs which is a crucial step we almost all need. Ok, I do understand that some jobs are word of mouth and never get posted but still. I suppose I'll just wait a little longer to start. I have saved more than enough for school so money wise I'm good. But...I worked so hard for it that I hate to see it disappear. Too bad I can't get something in the mail from a "higher being" thats say's, "Ok, Matt, its time to start". Well, I have never had illusions that it would be easy. Matt If you have the money to start now than I think this would be the perfect time. By the time you get your ratings in 1-2 years things might be looking better. You won't be competing for jobs as most people that want to start now can't due to lack of financing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkyMtnHI Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 If you have the money to start now than I think this would be the perfect time. By the time you get your ratings in 1-2 years things might be looking better. You won't be competing for jobs as most people that want to start now can't due to lack of financing. Totally agree with you on this one.. a long story that Lyn and i have discussed at length, and we'll have stats to back up our opinions in the near future. When you look at the industry as a whole, now is actually THE time to start training (another reason we opened Heli-Ops). There are a culmination of events/issues that will become more evident to everyone in the next couple of years, i know you see too many pilots and too few jobs today.. but that will change dramatically in the next three to five years. Quickly cuz my wife is cooking a turkey and all ready wondering where i disappeared to: There truly are a lot of pilots that will retire in the next few years (like it or not), many of the pilots that were caught up in the SS fiasco will not complete their goals, and even more due to the lack of financing now days.. Many of the CFIs and pilots that cannot get a job now will take on other careers and will be reluctant to leave them when times get better (not to mention lack of currency issues). MANY schools will not survive the next year or so, a lot have succumbed already, therefore less students, less CFI's and less competition. Unfortunately the operators are not seeing this yet, they look at their desk and see the stack of resumes and think all is well.. but in fact it isn't. Unless someone looks ahead and does something now, there will be a shortage of qualified entry level pilots in the next few years. Just in case you missed that: Unless someone looks ahead and does something now, there will be a shortage of qualified entry level pilots in the next few years. jmho, Happy Thanksgiving.. dp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodoz Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 There was a suit brought against a Monroe College several months back where the defendant claimed she was mislead into believing graduating would land her a job in IT. Forget the details, but she didn't believe the school had provided adequate job hunting assistance--something that was guaranteed--as evidenced by her not having a job after looking for 3 months. Don't know how the case panned out, or if it was just thrown out before it even got to court. When I read the headline..."Unemployed student sues school for $70k" I thought it had to be a flight school that promised a job or implied the demand for pilots was greater than it was. Wonder how flight schools are getting students in right now. Are they just glossing over the no-jobs, flooded market issue, or are most prospective students too eager to ask/care? Or are they banking on the philosophy that pursuing your education during a downturn in the economy sets you up for the recovery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 RkyMtnHI Posted 30 minutes ago Many of the CFIs and pilots that cannot get a job now will take on other careers and will be reluctant to leave them when times get better There's the $64,000.00 question, something I've been wondering about for a while now. Will I be willing to leave a good job, with benefits, for that $800/mo, sleep in your car, starter pilot job? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimW68 Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 Well Rocky my theory is the same. I have my PPL and about 92hrs. total. Plan to finish my Inst., and then patiently finish up Com. thru next year, leaving some of my extra time during Com. training for polish-up on CFI & CFII. By going this route hopefully once I'm over 160 hrs (late spring) if something opens up at the school I can quickly finish up and fill a slot. We all will have to be patient and see how it plays out, but I would agree with Rocky's statements and I for one will try to make it work. Doing someting I love for the rest of my life is just to hard to pass up without trying with everything I have. The other side of life, being a "gobot" will always be there, if this cannot happen at least I gave it my best try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 If you have the money to start now than I think this would be the perfect time. By the time you get your ratings in 1-2 years things might be looking better. You won't be competing for jobs as most people that want to start now can't due to lack of financing. Yes, but what about all of the military pilots produced by the war in Afghanistan & Iraq? Granted, not all of them may pursue careers in civilian aviation, but I'd imagine a good portion might. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkyMtnHI Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 Yes, but what about all of the military pilots produced by the war in Afghanistan & Iraq? Granted, not all of them may pursue careers in civilian aviation, but I'd imagine a good portion might. I understand that most of them will have limited time and mostly in one platform.. anyone have input on that? dp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechanic Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 In the name of trying to "understand the industry", how would having many hours mainly in 1 type of airframe would be a negative? The operator can see what type flight enviroments the pilot had been flying or in an interview ask the pilot those questions. I am thinking like comparing me as a potential CFI to an army pilot. Most of my time say 1500 hours R22/44 and 269 time flying the airport to a B206/UH-60 pilot with mountain time flying a twin turbine?? Even considering the second in command time they spend in the UH-60, still that seems to be a hard sell to me that I could compete against that pilot for a job. Not to mention if they hold and Army IP rating. Please explain your thoughts more RkyMtnHI.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick1128 Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 Yes, but what about all of the military pilots produced by the war in Afghanistan & Iraq? Granted, not all of them may pursue careers in civilian aviation, but I'd imagine a good portion might. Zack, Be careful about comparing today's situation with Viet Nam. During the VN war the Army was training hundreds of pilots a year. At one point, about the only way you could be busted out of flight training was to crash, killing the instructor AND yourself. The numbers that the Army is training today are much smaller. Keep in mind the military is using large numbers of reservists and NG pilots plus contractors. During VN this was not the case. Plus after flight training these pilots now have a minimum of a 8 year commitment. During and after VN it was 2 or 3 years and after VN there were major RIF's. Plus some will leave aviation after they get out. And others will go into the FW world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkyMtnHI Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 In the name of trying to "understand the industry", how would having many hours mainly in 1 type of airframe would be a negative? The operator can see what type flight enviroments the pilot had been flying or in an interview ask the pilot those questions. I am thinking like comparing me as a potential CFI to an army pilot. Most of my time say 1500 hours R22/44 and 269 time flying the airport to a B206/UH-60 pilot with mountain time flying a twin turbine?? Even considering the second in command time they spend in the UH-60, still that seems to be a hard sell to me that I could compete against that pilot for a job. Not to mention if they hold and Army IP rating. Please explain your thoughts more RkyMtnHI.. sorry, during the job fair at Heli-expo last year there were a group of gents talking about this issue, some were in the military getting ready to get out and were looking for jobs.. they said that most of their cohorts would have at the most 600 hours when exiting and were not having much luck in securing any positions. There was a position in the gulf that some were qualified for but there were only four of those slots and they were full most of the time. There are also insurance minimum issues, and with those little hours how current would they be? I know of some companies that will take a military trained pilot/individual hands down over a civilian and even with less hours, but they still have to have the minimums. dp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkyMtnHI Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 .. also, how many of those exiting the military will have CFI ratings? Not necessary to secure jobs, but pretty important if they have to build time up to the magic 1k or 1500 hrs. dp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auto360 Posted November 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Interesting responses. I failed to mention what is holding me back and this was not much of a thought when I first started saving a couple years ago. I have just a over 6 figures saved up, bills are just cell phone and stupid AOL and my house is rented which pays the mortgage. Now here's the thing...and this assumes I can work for one more year with out the contract being pulled. So, here it is. If I take that 100K and put it towards retirement and then take the next year and "simply" (its not really simple) save up for school again. That way even if for some reason I never became a pilot I would still have that money for retirement. Having to work when I'm older doesn't scare me...but being broke does. So, one more year doing a job that I despise beyond words and at least...another words, even if I spent 70k on school I would still have that 100K collecting interest. Just thinking of doing one more year out here though is very depressing.Different topic- I read a couple years ago (forget where) that military pilots have very little flight time except during times of war. Percentage wise anyway. Like typical pilot at home station only fly a couple hours a month. Again, I'm sure there are exceptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 RkyMtnHI Posted Yesterday, 18:39 sorry, during the job fair at Heli-expo last year there were a group of gents talking about this issue, some were in the military getting ready to get out and were looking for jobs.. they said that most of their cohorts would have at the most 600 hours when exiting and were not having much luck in securing any positions. You know its funny, hearing about 600hr. military pilots who can't find jobs because they don't have their CFi, like all of their tubine hours and advanced training is useless. This reminds me of a few companies to whom I've sent resumes over the years. They said that they only did about 30% teaching, the other 70% being regular commercial work, i.e. tours, photos, and the like. The only pilots who would be considered were 200-300hr. CFis, my almost 600hrs didn't even warrant a courtesy e-mail, simply because I'm not a CFi. I can still do the other 70%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inferno Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 You're not a CFI? That might explain your problems. Most employers I talked to wanted people to hold a CFI and get their experience teaching... Not to mention, nost of the 200 to 1200 hour jobs are instruction related..... That sheds a lot of light on the issue. I highly recommend you go and grab your CFI....You know its funny, hearing about 600hr. military pilots who can't find jobs because they don't have their CFi, like all of their tubine hours and advanced training is useless. This reminds me of a few companies to whom I've sent resumes over the years. They said that they only did about 30% teaching, the other 70% being regular commercial work, i.e. tours, photos, and the like. The only pilots who would be considered were 200-300hr. CFis, my almost 600hrs didn't even warrant a courtesy e-mail, simply because I'm not a CFi. I can still do the other 70%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkyMtnHI Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 You know its funny, hearing about 600hr. military pilots who can't find jobs because they don't have their CFi, like all of their tubine hours and advanced training is useless. This reminds me of a few companies to whom I've sent resumes over the years. They said that they only did about 30% teaching, the other 70% being regular commercial work, i.e. tours, photos, and the like. The only pilots who would be considered were 200-300hr. CFis, my almost 600hrs didn't even warrant a courtesy e-mail, simply because I'm not a CFi. I can still do the other 70%. The issue here, for me anyway, is that the tours and other higher level commercial stuff is the icing on the cake. My CFIs love that stuff and understandably so.. it also is part of our commercial training regime from time to time, AND a great way to build 44 time up to their 50 hours to teach, so it wouldn't be fair to the team to bring someone in just for the fun stuff, especially if those incoming pilots had not "paid their dues" so to speak, that is, been around to clean the hangar, wash the helos, answer the phone and such. At a flight school i trained at the owner would bring in ANYONE that would pay for any certificate, even if it was only a transition and or a II, and put them to work (they were promised a job if they dropped the $$ for the cert).. that never made sense to everyone there, to get a small amount of money, take on a CFI that you don't really know (or need), and dilute the student base further by adding another CFI. The only one that benefited was the operator as everyone else paid the price. You say, "well, at least the incoming CFI got a job", yeah but in a hostile environment with no students.. Ironic thing is that it cost the operator much more in loyalty than they ever made on one cert. When you have a team that is making virtually no money (i say no money because my team could all make tons more than they do teaching), and working many hours, loyalty is crucial, on all sides of the equation! butters, certainly not saying that you didn't deserve a call or an email because you did!! dp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Yes I know, I'm not a CFi, so my skills are worthless. Some things just can't be helped. Not all of us are ment to be teachers. Still, there are a lot of things I am perfectly qualified to do according to part 119, teaching is just one of them, not a prerequisite! To RkyMtnHI, I am more than willing to "pay my dues". I have sent resumes all over this planet, from South America to India. I don't want to move all the way to India to sleep in my car, and eat peanut butter three meals a day, while flying an R44 for slave wages, but I would. Teaching is not the only way to "pay your dues". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaKilo Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 There's the $64,000.00 question, something I've been wondering about for a while now. Will I be willing to leave a good job, with benefits, for that $800/mo, sleep in your car, starter pilot job? I was wondering the same thing; debating on whether or not to commit to school only to come out unemployed, and broke. Until I lost my "good job w/benefits". At that point (2months ago) I said "screw it" I have nothing to lose now. I applied for my loan, got it with in a few weeks, and told my mortgage company to screw. Given that I live in FL, and the current state of the housing market, I have listed my house as a "short sale". And anyone who lives in FL knows that short sales are taking 3-6 mo's to close. Not to mention their are no buyers. Long story short- I will be in this house for at least a year while I finish school. So I guess the moral of the story is: It takes a lot of balls to commit to a $64k price tag, I just had the decision made for me. I agree with RkyMtnHI and Rotormandan....This is the time to get in. Money is tight, less people are pulling that $64K trigger. But WHEN the market comes back up, their is going to be a "void" that someone has to fill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkyMtnHI Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Yes I know, I'm not a CFi, so my skills are worthless. Some things just can't be helped. Not all of us are ment to be teachers. Still, there are a lot of things I am perfectly qualified to do according to part 119, teaching is just one of them, not a prerequisite! To RkyMtnHI, I am more than willing to "pay my dues". I have sent resumes all over this planet, from South America to India. I don't want to move all the way to India to sleep in my car, and eat peanut butter three meals a day, while flying an R44 for slave wages, but I would. Teaching is not the only way to "pay your dues". Hey Bud, didn't mean it that way at all... just that some of the in-house team would see it that way.. if someone was hired to do all the fun stuff that they had waited months for. hope i didn't give you the wrong impression. dp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopper Tom Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 I have talked to a few helicopter schools here in MN and their numbers are down. They are optimistic things will turn around soon. I personally think now is the time to train, but Its always a gamble. If you look at the past, the economy always slumps from time to time but always comes back. I went through training years ago and I am so glad I did. You never know but you might find cheaper rates to bring students through the door. The plus side for you is you can pay cash, that's awesome. I would not recommend paying in full, but buy time in block rates of 10 or 15 hrs to make sure you don't lose your money. Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkyMtnHI Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 I have talked to a few helicopter schools here in MN and their numbers are down. They are optimistic things will turn around soon. I personally think now is the time to train, but Its always a gamble. If you look at the past, the economy always slumps from time to time but always comes back. I went through training years ago and I am so glad I did. You never know but you might find cheaper rates to bring students through the door. The plus side for you is you can pay cash, that's awesome. I would not recommend paying in full, but buy time in block rates of 10 or 15 hrs to make sure you don't lose your money. Good Luck Good points. most important: NEVER, EVER, GIVE A FLIGHT SCHOOL A LOT OF MONEY! dp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hovergirl Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Interesting responses. I failed to mention what is holding me back and this was not much of a thought when I first started saving a couple years ago. I have just a over 6 figures saved up, bills are just cell phone and stupid AOL and my house is rented which pays the mortgage. Now here's the thing...and this assumes I can work for one more year with out the contract being pulled. So, here it is. If I take that 100K and put it towards retirement and then take the next year and "simply" (its not really simple) save up for school again. That way even if for some reason I never became a pilot I would still have that money for retirement. Having to work when I'm older doesn't scare me...but being broke does. So, one more year doing a job that I despise beyond words and at least...another words, even if I spent 70k on school I would still have that 100K collecting interest. Just thinking of doing one more year out here though is very depressing. A lot of good questions are being addressed here, thought I would weigh in on this one. Depending on how soul crushing and depressing your job is, you may want to hold out just a bit more and put a little chunk of money away. Not being poor seems to be a concern for you, and and this can be an unstable business. Put some money away for retirement, and make sure you have a bit of a cushion in case you don't get work, or enough work, right when you finish your ratings. I tell people that fewer students are training now, so if and when things turn around there will be less competition, but I never advise potential students to go into this for the money, and I don't think most of us do (unless you count the sort of funky logic that says it's saving loads of money when you're flying but no longer paying hundreds of dollars an hour). If you're lucky enough to have a way to build up a little ramen-money in advance, it will make you a much more mellow guy a couple of years from now. Good luck, and enjoy whichever path you choose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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