From Initial Training to --------

[Mikemv]

To all, rather than add to DP's great post and follow up comments about "Resume & Interviews", I thought that I would share from my experiences of hiring pilots. WARNING, LONG POST.

 

My knowledge and experience had placed me in a position to lead, consult and perform in a hiring/management position at various helo operators locations. This was primarily in the 1990's but to a lesser extent still true today.

 

Most times we were looking for Part 91, 135 and 141 CFIs/pilots. When positions were full, resumes were kept on file for the more qualified pilots. Aircraft in operation were R22s, B206, B206L, AS350, B407, and lastly an R44. Plus my recent EC120B.

 

The pilot we were looking for had to be able to run a flight school (61 & 141), an aerial photgraphy business and train into our 135 ops both in piston & turbine aircraft. Many pilot applicants looked good on paper, sounded worthy over the phone and had good appearance and self presence in an interview. My problem manifested when it came down to giving the applicant (being seriously considered) an aviation knowledge oral prior to a pre-hire check flight. So many pilots were deficient in basic aviation knowledge, many thru no fault of their own. It turned out to be the same areas of deficiency for most of them from lack of training at the primary and advanced levels. Unfortunately, these common deficiencies did not lead to advancing in the hiring process to a check flight.

 

The last pilot hired had some of the knowledge short comings and got thru a satifactory check flight although not outstanding but totally safe. He possesed computer and organizational skills and seemed to want to learn and advance. This was in 1996. He was given full rein in running the school & photo business. He trained in out 135 program, accomplished a Turbine Transition with me, was sent to Bell 206 Factory Course. Thru the years, he became 135 PIC qualified, 3 years later Chief Pilot qualified and 141 Chief Flight Instructor. He has a 100% pass rate on all student flight tests for ratings. He is respected by all that know him both as a pilot and individual. He is currently at the 6,000 hour level and still Instructing! Now, he is also the General Manager.

 

Today, it is a very tough and frustrating world and I certainly have little advice on how to get from 0 hours to CFII and then into a job position. I thought that I would post this last scenario from the real world, albeit dated but applicable to show you things that I (one person in a hiring position) considered.

 

To make things worse, I still find from flying with new CFII's that they ALL have the same short comings due to mis-training or insufficient training for the so called "Real World Ops". The scary part is that so much of it is BASICS. Even scarier is that they trained or are training other pilots now. I am talking about 70 or more pilots and EVERYONE of them.

 

Many of you have flown with me on long Summer Cross Country flights and we discussed many of the common deficiencies. It was not your fault that you were not trained properly! I know you are more knowledgeable now and hopefully are passing on these items to your students.

 

If it makes you feel better, I was where you are at in both knowledge and skill at some time along the road. 42+ years later, I am wanting to help and correct the problems.

 

I have been talking with DP & Lyn about offering Seminars in various locations to remove the short comings and break the cycle and help the "Futures". More on that in another post.

 

Be Safe, MikeMV

Edited December 6, 2009 by Mikemv

[Mungo5]

Interesting post, thanks for taking the time to share your experience.

 

I'd be interested to know a bit more about the short comings

 

they ALL have the same short comings due to mis-training or insufficient training for the so called "Real World Ops"

Edited December 4, 2009 by Mungo5

[rotormandan]

Can you give some examples of common basics that the many pilots lack?

[Mikemv]

I will list them in Topic areas of my Seminars/Training

 

Perceptions & Mentalities (10)

 

Comfort & False Confidences (7)

 

Missing/Incomplete Training areas (7)

 

Recurrent Training (4)

 

The numbers indicate sub topics with data expansion in each area.

 

Mike

[Miloe]

Any chance of pestering more details out of you on the specifics?

I'd offer dinner and/or beers but it would be really lousy by the time USPS gets it to you from TX.

Thanks

Gary

[Mikemv]

Miloe, best I can do is to suggest that you attend one of my Seminars. The presentation is really the way I want to get the info out there (very interactive) and it will help pilots/CFI's be safe in a career. Too many faults to the end result of throwing details out on an internet forum. I may be offering them to groups of helo pilots at their local locations. Working on offering that in the future. Can you put together a group of 10 to 20 helo pilots/CFI's? Where are you? No reply expected.

 

Be Safe

 

Mike

[svtcobra66]

Is this going to be a free seminar?

[Mikemv]

SVT,

 

No not free, I must travel to various locations and continue to earn a living. Pricing to be determined according to location, host sponsor and number of participants.

 

Mike

[svtcobra66]

I find it a strange marketing tactic to tell everyone they have "shortcomings" that you won't explain unless they pay money for your course. I would imagine a quick look at the PTS would help most people realize where they lacked knowledge, and I would be weary of a course with such vague components.

[Mikemv]

Svt, you are welcome to your opinion. I did give a topic list of general subject areas. You can see that many would not be in a PTS. Those pilots that have flown with me or discussed the topics know of the value. Some of the short comings are due to lack of training not in PTS guides. I have discussed some of these items with pilots for free during extended cross country flights.

 

Best to you, Mike

[r22butters]

Mikemv Posted Today, 11:03

My problem manifested when it came down to giving the applicant (being seriously considered) an aviation knowledge oral prior to a pre-hire check flight. So many pilots were deficient in basic aviation knowledge, many thru no fault of their own.

 

This happened to me on my one, and only, face-to-face interview. I thought I was perfectly prepared, studying Limitations, Emergency Procedures, Commercial Regs., and the like. The only Aerodynamics I studied were those related to the Emergency Procedures, like LTE, Retreating Blade Stall, and such.

 

The first question he asked was about Transverse Flow Effect ,...its not that I didn't know it, but he had to get me started. There were a whole bunch of other "basic" aerodynamic questions that followed, like Newtons Third Law, Corriolus, That Autorotation Diagram,...hell, I hadn't looked at that since my Private training, years ago!

 

The thing is, I just wasn't expecting these types of questions, (especially for a company that didn't offer any training), so I didn't prepare for them.

 

Since then, of course, I have gone over all that stuff, and more, and I review it every two to three weeks just in case I get another chance, however that was three and a half years ago, so maybe we only get one?

 

I guess the main point is that I had no idea what a real job interview would be like, I never thought it would be harder than my checkride?

Edited December 5, 2009 by r22butters

[Pohi]

Butters,

 

Thank you for your post, you bring up a very good point.

 

It gets so very annoying that some people just try to get through the minimum and only care about what the dpe will ask for a checkride. Being a pilot is not like 8th grade history where there is cramming for a test then all the facts and information can be dumped because it is irrelevant. It seems that sometimes all people want is a piece of paper that says they are a pilot, and if they could just pay the ten grand to an examiner without flying they would.

 

To any of those people, for only eight grand I will give you a piece of paper, a tshirt, a light sport rating, and a classified ad in the local paper of your choice telling the world how awesome you are.

 

Just pm me.

 

Thanks.

[R22139RJ]

Only 8,000!? NO WAY. PM SENT!

[DanceswithCyclic]

Regarding the cost for such a course...

 

The PTS is a minimum level of knowledge. Uncle Sam says you earn a certificate if you know this material. He does not have the magic job wand for you yet.

 

That's where men and women like Mikemv come along. They know the commercial side of the industry, are successful at it, and hold the pen that signs the paycheck.

 

Lastly, you get what you pay for.

 

Kevin

[svtcobra66]

"Lastly, you get what you pay for."

 

I think those former Silver State students might disagree with you on that one Kevin...

Edited December 7, 2009 by svtcobra66

[Pohi]

"Lastly, you get what you pay for."

 

I think those former Silver State students might disagree with you on that one Kevin...

 

I saw an advertisement on television that stated: "For the low, low price of only $72,000 you can get your very own Silver State Hat, headset, and flight bag. If you act now, for a limited time, we will throw in some flight hours....."

 

It was something like that, it has been a while

[R22139RJ]

To make things worse, I still find from flying with new CFII's that they ALL have the same short comings due to mis-training or insufficient training for the so called "Real World Ops". The scary part is that so much of it is BASICS. Even scarier is that they trained or are training other pilots now. I am talking about 70 or more pilots and EVERYONE of them.

 

 

I would imagine a quick look at the PTS would help most people realize where they lacked knowledge,

 

 

Some of the short comings are due to lack of training not in PTS guides.

 

I'm confused. If pilots are lacking in the basics, wouldn't that be the basics taught in the PTS? Were the instructors of the applicants not doing their jobs? It's my understanding that giving a student and endorsment certifys that I have been over all the required areas in the PTS and the student is proficient. Its the DPE's job to spot check my work. If pilots lack the basic flying ability, I would place blame on the instructor. If a pilot lacks basic knowledge, it's their own fault. Only learning the material for a checkride is treating aviation like high school and the applicants Mikemv said he interviewed were CFIIs. If these shortcomings aren't in the PTS, then its no wonder EVERYONE has them. Are these things hidden secrets of the trade or a lack of good instruction? I'll have to wait for a seminar report.

[Mikemv]

Dear R22139RJ, at the time most pilots/applicants take a check ride they are prepared for the test. Their CFIs did a great job teaching them and getting them ready. How long do they maintain that pumped up state of knowledge and proficiency?

 

Inspectors and DPEs do not ask everything. Pilots obtain their Certificate and many could not pass an oral and check ride 6 to 12 months later. Working as a CFI does not make you proficient in all areas but more so proficient in the training environment.

 

Now move on to items that were not understood by the original CFI beyond the training level and PTS. Next, the PTS does not contain any requirements for helicopter flight operations when working an aircraft on various missions.

 

Look at the subject areas I listed from the Seminar Outline and how many (numbers) are listed next to each. Everyday, post certificate flight operations are at different levels of experience and proficiency for each of us. Passing a check ride and meeting PTS elements does not mean that anyone will be proficient in helo ops at 500 hours, 1,000 hours, 2,000 hrs, etc. Many pilots still have short comings at 3,000 hours because of inadeqacies in training and thinking they are beyond the basics or no longer using them.

 

 

Best Wishes, Mike

Edited December 11, 2009 by Mikemv

[RkyMtnHI]

Hey all,

 

I have been busy with a special guest at Heli-Ops this week so i haven't posted here as of yet and apologize for taking so long to get to this topic. I am not completely sure of what is being said here but would like to say this:

 

Mike is one of the people that i trust and respect the most on this forum and will do my best to host him for one of his seminars here in Denver. I can also say that the guy visiting us feels the same way and will hopefully be here at the same time for this program.

 

jmho,

 

aloha,

 

dp

[R22139RJ]

Its unfortunate that some may not care to retain information. I try to drive home the importance of the information to student. My efforts may be lost on them and maybe im just lucky to have enough down time to review the material I teach. I'm still a noob so the only thing I have going for me is knowing material. I don't have the experience to offer.

 

I have no experience outside of the training environment and no real guideline to go by besides the PTS. It is my hope that teaching to standards will give a pilot the tools they need to operate the aircraft safely and that these tools will be valuable enough to land them a gig. I read Fatal Traps and it seems like so many of the accidents could of been avoided by information I knew. For example, a mechanic left the jesus bolt off and the pilot didn't preflight.

 

There is no substitute for expertise. I worked in a motorcycle shop and was introduced to more than I could retain and I hope this learning curve will exist if I get a job flying some bad ass helicopter with more experienced pilots. A career ag pilot that flying isn't that big of a deal. You are just operating a machine. If you operate a machine safely all the time, I would consider that proficient enough work for an operator. I will have to answer my own question of what makes doing a mission with a helicopter for a job outside the training world so much more different than the basics taught initially. There was a previous post in another thread and someone mentioned finding a commercial pilot to train them. It seems like that would be the best way to discover the secrets of the trade.