Helicopter "add-on"

[R22139RJ]

In order to accomplish this, the student will require 20 hours of dual instruction in helicopters, and must have at least 10 hours of solo. The student will require more time, in actuality, but this is the legal minimum.

 

While the student has performed certain training as a private pilot in airplanes, the student must still undergo certain training in helicopters, which includes:

 

3 hours of cross-country flight training in a helicopter.

3 hours of night flight training in a helicopter, that includes at least 1 cross-country flight of over 50 nm. total distance; and 10 takeoffs and 10 landings with each involving a flight in the traffic pattern.

3 hours of flight training in a helicopter within the preceding 60 days prior to the practical test.

 

The student must also do 10 hours of solo flight practicing the private pilot areas of operation in a helicopter, including:

 

3 hours of solo cross-country flying in a helicopter, including at one solo cross-country flight of at least 75 nm. total distance with 3 points and one segment of at least 25 nm. between takeoff and landing.

3 takeoffs and landings at a controlled airport in a helicopter.

 

That's it for the legal requirements.

 

I wouldn't try to convince people what it is.

[269cfi]

3+3+3=9+10hrs solo =19

 

I have signed off several add-on's with less than 20 hours dual. One guy had 10.5 of dual and 10 of solo. This is obviously NOT in a robbie.

[rick1128]

I have a copy of those, it's called the regulations

 

Actually you don't. The legal office of the FAA spends somewhere around half their time writing letters of interpretation on what exactly the regulations mean. By Federal Law, each agency that issues regulations must issue interpretations of those regulations in writing when a user or citizen requests it. The easiest and safest for the agency in questions is to quote case law 9i.e. FAA v. Peter Pilot or FAA v. XYZ Airways) and they are off the hook. If there is no case law then they have to stick their butts over a crack.

[Pohi]

Actually you don't. The legal office of the FAA spends somewhere around half their time writing letters of interpretation on what exactly the regulations mean. By Federal Law, each agency that issues regulations must issue interpretations of those regulations in writing when a user or citizen requests it. The easiest and safest for the agency in questions is to quote case law 9i.e. FAA v. Peter Pilot or FAA v. XYZ Airways) and they are off the hook. If there is no case law then they have to stick their butts over a crack.

 

Oh dear

[helonorth]

Not sure why we are still talking about this. Apparently some people think their local FSDO is the ultimate authority, which it obviously is not. poohi, I would quit while you're behind. Not that you are necessarily wrong. But there are people getting ratings (and have been for decades) without the 20 hours dual in catagory. So for right now, you and your tasty cookie FSDO, are.

Edited December 30, 2009 by helonorth

[Pohi]

Not sure why we are still talking about this. Apparently some people think their local FSDO is the ultimate authority, which it obviously is not. poohi, I would quit while you're behind. Not that you are necessarily wrong. But there are people getting ratings (and have been for decades) without the 20 hours dual in catagory. So for right now, you and your tasty cookie FSDO, are.

 

The FSDO is the ultimate authority.

 

People also believed Pluto was a planet for decades.

 

If a person can take both their airplane and helicopter checkrides at 40 hours total time then they win. Well, one checkride would have to be at 40, and the second checkride would have to be at 41-42 hours total time. Either way, both ratings in less than 45 hours.

Edited December 31, 2009 by Pohi

[helonorth]

Pluto's not a planet? Dang! Never been there. I guess I read that someplace, though. This thread has again disintegrated. Oh well.

[R22139RJ]

I stumbled across this on the FAA website. It's an Aeronautical Experience Checklist. It explains the requirements for additional category and additional class ratings. It seems pretty cut and dry to me.

 

Here's the link:

 

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headqu...ia/aero-exp.doc

 

I found this excerpt.

 

XXXI. An additional Rotorcraft category rating for the Helicopter class rating at the Private Pilot Certification Level:

A. Dual: 20 hours of flight training in a helicopter with an instructor on the Private Pilot areas of operation that includes:

1. 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a helicopter;

2. 3 hours of night flight training in a helicopter, that includes at least-

a. 1 cross-country flight of over 50 nm. total distance; and

b. 10 takeoffs and 10 landings with each involving a flight in the traffic pattern.

3. 3 hours of flight training in a helicopter within the preceding 60 days prior to the practical test.

B. Solo: 10 hours of solo flying in a helicopter on the Private Pilot areas of operation, that includes:

1. 3 hours of solo cross-country flying;

2. 1 solo cross-country flight of at least 75 nm. total distance with 3 points and one segment of at least 25 nm. between takeoff and landing; and

3. 3 takeoffs and landings at a controlled airport.

 

 

To Pohi, definitely quit. You are like a fat kid in gym class you are so far behind.

[NC AV8R]

Just incase some of you didn't take the time to read through the Aeronautical Experience Checklist that I posted in an earlier post on this thread. It states that 30 hours is need for a rotorcraft-helicopter category add-on. Twenty hours dual in a helicopter. Ten hours solo in a helicopter. So if this checklist was produced by the FAA, can we not believe it to be true?

 

I'm not saying that anyone hasn't had students get the add-on in less time. I am saying that there is a right answer here. I will even venture to say that even my answer may not be completely correct. However, within in my research I have found more than suffecient evidence to support that 20 hours dual and 10 hours solo in a helicopter is needed for an additional category rating.

 

For anyone who has claimed to have had students get the add-on in a helicopter in less than 30 hours. I would seriously consider contacting the FAA and getting them to explain the regulations.

 

What if one of those students who was signed off in less than 30 hours has an accident. Could the instructor who allowed the student to get there license in less than those stated in the regulations, be held liable? That's just something to think about.

 

Guys...let's keep this to a healthy discusion so this thread doesn't get closed like the airplane add-on thread. Remember this is just a forum. Nothing here should be taken personal. Discussions on a topic like this can be beneficial to us all.

[NC AV8R]

***Deleted*** Reason: Same post as above.

Edited December 31, 2009 by NC AV8R

[bossman]

***Deleted*** Reason: Same post as above.

NC AV8R,

I do not "claim" to have done anything. It is a "fact". 3+3+3+10=19 hours. It can be done within this time. We do it all the time. Most folks take at least 25 hours, but it has, and continues to be done, in as little as 19 hours.

[NC AV8R]

NC AV8R,

I do not "claim" to have done anything. It is a "fact". 3+3+3+10=19 hours. It can be done within this time. We do it all the time. Most folks take at least 25 hours, but it has, and continues to be done, in as little as 19 hours.

 

 

Bossman,

 

Come on. I apologize if I offended you with my word choice. By using the word claim I never meant it to sound like anyone is blowing smoke. I believe that you have had students do it in 19 hours.

 

I'm not saying you are wrong with the 19 hour thing. But can you point me to a place in the regulations that states it can be done in 19 hours? I've already found a place in the regulations that states 30 hours. I have been unable to locate anything that states 19 hours.

 

Anyone wanna take a stab at the question I asked earlier:

 

If a pilot who got his/her add-on in fewer hours than stated in the regulations has an accident in a helicopter, is there any grounds there to hold the flight instructor who blessed off liable? Could the DPE be held liable?

[R22139RJ]

If an instructor can get blamed for a student flying solo that crashed and you endorsed them, I am sure the FAA would have no problem jumping your case if the NTSB got a lawyer to interpret the regs and viewed things the way some people do.

 

NC AV8R. The 19 comes from only doing the required training in the area of operations. People aren't looking at the 20 hours required dual in helicopter (the FAA checklist specifically states this, thanks for posting), or choosing not to comply with it. If the 20 hours dual in category isn't required, you could get both ratings, helicopter and fixed wing within the 40 hours.

 

Its been established that people have done it in 19hrs, but its wrong.

[SkidKid]

If the 20 hours dual in category isn't required, you could get both ratings, helicopter and fixed wing within the 40 hours.

 

Its been established that people have done it in 19hrs, but its wrong.

 

Interesting, but when I did my CFI initial, just 5 years ago, the FAA Inspector asked me to calculate the number of hours that it took for someone to get a Helo add on to a PPL SEL. It came to 19 hours, plus the practical ride, and that was the correct answer in his opinion.

[R22139RJ]

If he thought that it was correct, then go with your FAA inspector.

[RockyMountainPilot]

A low time instructor at a local airport was bragging about the number of students he signed off in less than 50 hours. I decided to brag about my most recent student who took 150 hours in an SR22 to get his private, and shortly after he took himself and his wife on a trip to the Bahamas.

 

I don't understand this concept of trying to get it in as little time as possible. I tell my students up front that they will likely not get their private in less than 100 hours, but when I do sign them off, they will be very competent. The ones who flinch are the same ones who flinch at my rates. The ones who don't make the easiest students and the best pilots. The goal should be competence, not hours.

[rotormandan]

If a person can take both their airplane and helicopter checkrides at 40 hours total time then they win. Well, one checkride would have to be at 40, and the second checkride would have to be at 41-42 hours total time. Either way, both ratings in less than 45 hours.

 

POHI- No one is saying that it is possible to get both ratings under 40 hours. The minimum is still 40 plus the check ride to get the initial private. The add-on is the only one people are saying have a 19 hour min plus the checkride. I'd say for both ratings 59 hours plus 2 checkrides would be the bare minimum but not very likely. Apparently it depends where you are at. The inspectors and FSDO near you believe 30 min for the add-on is correct so therefore so do the schools nearby and the students that went there. The opposite is true near Bossman and others alike that have had students actually get the private add-on in 19-29. So I guess it's just where you are at.

 

I tell my students up front that they will likely not get their private in less than 100 hours, but when I do sign them off, they will be very competent.

 

Really? While I very much believe that you provide competent training, 100 hours seems a bit excessive. I know that there are those that do actually need that much time in order to become competent but that shouldn't be the norm. I understand that typically to become competent it will take more than the minimum hours but 100 hours just seems like a lot especially for the private level.

[bossman]

A low time instructor at a local airport was bragging about the number of students he signed off in less than 50 hours. I decided to brag about my most recent student who took 150 hours in an SR22 to get his private, and shortly after he took himself and his wife on a trip to the Bahamas.

 

I don't understand this concept of trying to get it in as little time as possible. I tell my students up front that they will likely not get their private in less than 100 hours, but when I do sign them off, they will be very competent. The ones who flinch are the same ones who flinch at my rates. The ones who don't make the easiest students and the best pilots. The goal should be competence, not hours.

100 hours may be the norm in a Robbie, I do not know. We tell our students it will take them around 50 to 60 hours. We have had a couple do it in 45. I know that the solo requirement is higher in the Robbie. We have had students solo in 8 hours. It is still 19 hours for the add-on.

[rotormandan]

When I was instructing in Robbies the average was about the same.

[Pohi]

My whole point about supposedly being able to do both ratings in less than 45 hours is that some people believe that where the regulations say that 20 hours of dual and 10 hours solo in blah blah blah does not mean anything (aka 19 hours). If this is the case, then the same logic would apply to initial ratings also. Therefore it would be possible to be ready for both checkrides at 40 hours.

 

Take the airplane written.

11 hours of dual in airplanes (because it is cheaper)

10 hours of solo airplanes

9 hours of dual in helicopter (not robinson's, of course)

10 hours of solo helicopter.

Airplane checkride at 40, then helo right after.

 

This is just an extension of the logic that the 20 hours of dual and 10 hours of solo do not have to be in category.

 

Or, a person could look at 61.63 part b where it says that an additional category rating requires all of the training that the initial rating requires.

 

That's all I was saying there.

 

As far as how long it takes a person to get their private in a Robinson, it mostly depends on the student and the frequency of training, but most of my full time students can be done in less than 45. The schedule is the deciding factor, in my humble opinion.

[RockyMountainPilot]

Really? While I very much believe that you provide competent training, 100 hours seems a bit excessive. I know that there are those that do actually need that much time in order to become competent but that shouldn't be the norm. I understand that typically to become competent it will take more than the minimum hours but 100 hours just seems like a lot especially for the private level.

 

I don't teach someone to pass a checkride. I could easily do that in 40 hours. I teach someone to be a safe, proficient, and competent pilot with excellent decision making skills. That can not be done in 40 hours. How can a pilot make good decision if all of their flights have been on good flying days within 150 miles of their home airport and without experiencing heavy traffic airports, different weather phenomenon, mountains, over water flights, etc.

 

The thing thats causes most fatal accidents are poor decisions. Often, they don't even know they made a poor decision until it is too late. Equipping them with the knowledge they need is their best defense.

[R22139RJ]

RockyMountainPilot, well put.

[bossman]

I don't teach someone to pass a checkride. I could easily do that in 40 hours. I teach someone to be a safe, proficient, and competent pilot with excellent decision making skills. That can not be done in 40 hours. How can a pilot make good decision if all of their flights have been on good flying days within 150 miles of their home airport and without experiencing heavy traffic airports, different weather phenomenon, mountains, over water flights, etc.

 

The thing thats causes most fatal accidents are poor decisions. Often, they don't even know they made a poor decision until it is too late. Equipping them with the knowledge they need is their best defense.

A lot can be taught in 40 hours if done correctly. Our students are subjected to all the environments that you list on a daily basis. We do not believe in spinning traffic patterns around the airport all the time. It's been said a thousand times, "the Private License is a license allowing you to learn". We instill good judgement and decision making with a large dose of common sense. Nobody gets signed off untill they are ready. This can occur at the 40 hour level or the 100 hour level. It all depends upon the individual and their abilities. You can teach anyone to pass a check ride, sometimes it takes a little longer to make a Pilot, sometimes it takes a little less. It costs the students too much money to take any more than is needed.

[Rick McWilliams]

It seems reasonable to me to send a pilot out for the check ride when they are up to the PTS. The private rating is a rating to learn. They then can continue their training without all of the restrictions of a non-rated pilot. They can then take a friend on flights.

 

I am a new pilot. I needed about 60 hours to get my helicopter add on rating. I have been pushing myself to improve my skills. I now have 120 hours. My precision is improving, everything is getting easier. I fly with a couple of different instructors to develop more advanced skills.

[Vaqueroaero]

It appears to me to be very simply put in the FAR's:

 

"40 hours of flight time (if it is an add on, then they have that) that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in 61.107((3) of this part...........

 

If they have less than 30 hours of total helicopter time they do not meet the requirements of this part.

 

Simple as that.