3 Questions for Flight Instructors

[kodoz]

This is for

 

What's the difference between the Demonstration and Performance Method and the Telling and Doing Technique? No running for your FOIs.

 

Now, can you give an example of how you would teach a student how to do a simple maneuver using the D&P method, and how it would differ if you used the T&D method?

 

What method did your instructor use and what method are you using now?

[R22139RJ]

Considering I charge my students $200 an hour, i'll need you to wire transfer me some dough before I answer any questions. $50 will get you a paragraph.

[Pohi]

Considering I charge my students $200 an hour, i'll need you to wire transfer me some dough before I answer any questions. $50 will get you a paragraph.

 

oh my goodness RJ, horrible picture you have there.

[R22139RJ]

oh my goodness RJ, horrible picture you have there.

 

Not everyone can be as bad ass as they pretend to be on the internet. Luckily I have 3 hours in a turbine so now im marketable.

[Pohi]

To the OP, I use the "wing it" method, which usually turns out pretty crappy. I remember there is a 3 or 4 stage FAA approved process, something like

 

Instructor says/instructor does

instructor does/student says

student does/student says

and then perhaps one more after that.

 

If this is what you are talking about, I quite often forget the instructor does/student says part.

For this, I feel terrible.... for two reasons.

1. It is a great method to make sure the student understands fundamentally what imputs to make and what they should be doing (aka traffic patterns, when to turn, slow down, descend, etc etc). This would tell the instructor that a failed maneuver is a control issue and not an comprehension issue.

2. I am robbing myself of actual stick time. I mean, really... I could actually touch the controlls and fly the helicopter every once in a while other than just sit there? I need to do this more often.

[R22139RJ]

I know your pain Pohi. I hate taking controls over to demonstrate something. I feel guilty for charging the student $200 an hour AND $500 for the helicopter to show a student a maneuver.

[Pohi]

I know your pain Pohi. I hate taking controls over to demonstrate something. I feel guilty for charging the student $200 an hour AND $500 for the helicopter to show a student a maneuver.

 

very true. I feel like a dick when I say "my controls" and demonstrate something, especially at the going rates.

 

Last week, my student needed help on a cross long cross country, so it went like this...

 

shortly after take off I had to say, "my controls", and I demonstrated how a long cross country should look like. It ended up being about 2.6 hours of a demonstration.

[Waldorf]

Not everyone can be as bad ass as they pretend to be on the internet. Luckily I have 3 hours in a turbine so now im marketable.

Is that photo you have displayed a result of your flying. Congrats on your 3 hours of turbine, I'm sure your overwhelmed with employers knocking at your door.

[R22139RJ]

very true. I feel like a dick when I say "my controls" and demonstrate something, especially at the going rates.

 

Last week, my student needed help on a cross long cross country, so it went like this...

 

shortly after take off I had to say, "my controls", and I demonstrated how a long cross country should look like. It ended up being about 2.6 hours of a demonstration.

 

That is one well trained student then! Good instructing methods, you should hold a seminar.

 

 

Is that photo you have displayed a result of your flying. Congrats on your 3 hours of turbine, I'm sure your overwhelmed with employers knocking at your door.

 

No, and you may be interested in this:

Sarcasm, witty language used to convey insults or scorn.

Edited February 28, 2010 by R22139RJ

[Mikemv]

Dear Kodoz, I applaud your attempt at posting some useful info but alas, it has gone South immediately.

 

This is one example of why you are highly respected in the Helo Industry and others are looked at as a jokesters! Your efforts at HAI were noticed and appreciated by many, especially those that can advance pilot careers and offer jobs.

 

Hopefully, CFIs use both in their instruction of students and at the correct time.

 

Best to All, MikeMV

[lelebebbel]

Maybe this thread can still be turned into a productive discussion about teaching methods and CFI tricks of the trade.

 

I find Demonstration and Performance works well with most students and most maneuvers, and only use T+D if a student seems to have trouble to understand a maneuver, or struggles with a complex or fast maneuver, such as the end of an autorotation, or maybe a hover auto.

 

I am curious to hear your opinion on the appropriate use of each method.

[Hawkeye0001]

Actually his efforts didn't go out the window completely. Not being able to instruct at the moment the knowledge vanishes fast without oneself even realising it! Don't use it - you lose it. So at least not knowing a good answer right away made me feel embarrassed enough to get back to the books and clarify the matter.

Good stimulus to start the long deferred project of revising my CFI binder by the way

Edited March 1, 2010 by Hawkeye0001

[Eric Hunt]

How can you feel guilty for demonstrating a sequence??!!

 

Instruction involves:

Demonstrate. Show the student the correct technique for performing a sequence, preferably with him following through on the controls.

 

Direct. Talk the student through the same sequence, with corrections as required, until he has got it.

 

Monitor. Watch the student do it by himself.

 

Known as DDM.

 

How can you expect a student to properly perform if you haven't first shown him how to do it?

[Mikemv]

Lelebebbel, Good response and good use of each.

Eric Hunt, good comments also.

 

I feel that D-PM is standard use and T&D T are useful in problem areas but neither is etched in stone and CFIs should adjust to the needs of the student for maneuver.

 

Best to All, Mikemv

[R22139RJ]

Joking and shenanigans aside, I demonstrate and talk through maneuvers but usually skip the instructor does, student tells step because I would rather have the student jump on the controls instead of me demonstrating the same thing twice.

[yzchopper]

I use what ever method works for the student I'm teaching. Some can be told how to do it and they do it. Most need to be shown how just once, while others may need to be shown several times. Everyone learns differently. I adapt my teachings accordingly. D&PM is normally what I use though.

[Pohi]

Grr, I didn't get a pat on the head and a cookie for my comments.

 

Bad Pohi :-(

[R22139RJ]

Grr, I didn't get a pat on the head and a cookie for my comments.

 

Bad Pohi :-(

 

Cancer.

[kodoz]

Instructor says/instructor does

instructor does/student says

student does/student says

and then perhaps one more after that.

Fine, gold star for Pohi for this part. The key difference between the 2 methods is the student tells/instructor does part. Go all the way back to section 9 of the FOI--yup, another important lesson stuck way in the back by the FAA--and give it another read. Even if you're a student, it's worth your while to read this so you can assess the quality of the training you're getting. You can get you own digital copy for nothing through my site.

 

I am curious to hear your opinion on the appropriate use of each method.

Me too. I can't remember a single lesson where any of my instructors used the T&D method Why? Maybe because I was too eager to get on the controls, maybe because they didn't know how to, maybe because they thought it was cheesy. I think a lot of it has to do with the CFI-instructor's teaching philosophy, but that's another story.

 

So I asked the 2nd and 3rd questions to see if anybody out there was doing anything different. Even though the FOI promotes T&D, our resource (the Helicopter Flight Instructor's Handbook) doesn't give any practical guidance on how to actually teach any of the maneuvers by T&D. How would you break an auto or quick stop down into T&D? Could you break a hover auto down into T&D, or does it simply happen too fast for T&D to work?

 

For this, I feel terrible...

Pohi was also correct in this respect--both that he should feel terrible and the reason why.

 

...to make sure the student understands fundamentally what imputs to make

Say you go out with a student and wing it, or see what works for them, or try the D&P method first and the student screws up? No harm done, right? Mmmm...first, you don't know whether the failed maneuver was a conceptual problem or an control problem, and you have to sort this out in the cockpit...not the most conducive environment for dealing with conceptual issues. Second, the student now has to spend Hobbs time unlearning the incorrect inputs and then learning the correct inputs.

 

MikeMV and I were talking about this at HAI, how there are lots of inefficiencies in training, and that time could be put to better use. The training time that's wasted unlearning incorrect inputs is definitely an inefficiency, whether it's due to conceptual issues, control issues, motivational issues, whatever--and it isn't trivial. At the HAI Flight Instructor Refresher Clinic one of the instructors threw out a number.

 

Anybody want to venture a guess at how much longer it takes to unlearn something than it takes to learn something? Twice as long? Three times as long? More than that?

[Mikemv]

To all, D-P Method is very efficient and therefore most used. T&D technique is just that, a technique. It has been stated correctly that the main difference is "the student tells, Instructor does" step, however I would like to reinforce that another important difference is the first step in T&D is Preparation. The Instructor needs to go through this process in a ground lesson if possible so the student knows what he is to do and more so, shows that he understands the information & steps & procedures. Imagine less than understanding and asking the student to talk through it? This creates a huge stumbling block. In my history as CFI, I have used T&D in a ground lesson to overcome difficult areas when a student has difficulties in a particular maneuver. I usually stop the instruction during flight of the apparent area, have a post flight discussion of same, assign a reading/study assignment and then prior to the next flight lesson have a discussion of the material/maneuver. Only then do I use T&D but modified to have the student tell on the ground and then use the T&D technique in flight but not until I give the student a chance to perform the maneuver by suggesting he mentally(not verbally) talk him self through his performance. Most of the Preparation fixes the problem long before the actual T&D which helps the Instrutor know that the student has arrived at the Application level of learning!

 

CFIs, remember how clumsy your mouth was while trying to fly from the opposite seat and talk through everything you did? I have CFI Applicants write out all of their oral presentations, then, when correct, say them into a recording device for playback so they can self tune them. Think about how difficult it would be for a student to talk about something they are having a problem with. Preparation is the key to using T&D Technique.

 

Kodoz, you know I know the factor of correction but will not give it away. I am not sure if it is stated anywhere in AIH. Info on D-P Method and T&D Technique is on pages 8-6 & 8-7 in 8083-9A.

 

Thank all of you for turning this thread around into something beneficial.

 

Chris works hard at adding something to the Industry in many ways and I did not like seeing his efforts made silly. Pohi, you and others had some good input here also, I did not mean to leave kudos for anyone out.

 

Best to All, Mikemv

[Guest pokey]

Anybody want to venture a guess at how much longer it takes to unlearn something than it takes to learn something? Twice as long? Three times as long? More than that?

 

 

i think it depends on alot of things, is it a motor response, does it require thinking B4 doing,,,, even more----but? im my findings. Somethings can never be "unlearned" I once read about the "monkey see/monkey do" scenerio where they could NOT undo the bad response from the monkey---was easier to just "get another monkey"

[kodoz]

I once read about the "monkey see/monkey do" scenerio where they could NOT undo the bad response from the monkey---was easier to just "get another monkey"

 

That's funny...and pretty close to the truth. The number they threw out in the FIRC was that it takes 9 times longer to unlearn an incorrect action than it takes to learn it in the first place.

[EC120AV8R]

That's funny...and pretty close to the truth. The number they threw out in the FIRC was that it takes 9 times longer to unlearn an incorrect action than it takes to learn it in the first place.

 

That sounds believable. If you look at any muscle movement, whether gross or fine movement, it takes about 1,000 iterations of that movement (done correctly) to commit it to "muscle memory". If done incorrectly, you have to unlearn something that has been committed to muscle memory (almost to the point of stimulus/reaction), and commit the new movement.