Another funding question...

[frumplestiltskin]

Hey all, I'm new here, and am excited to participate. I'm trying to figure out the best way to go about funding helicopter training. I'm a complete noob, having a grand total of 1 hour in an R22 under my belt, but have caught the bug something fierce and am pursuing helos as my future career path. (I know it's not going to be easy. I've read a lot of the posts decrying the state of the industry, and while they're sobering, they're not deterring me from moving forward.) I'm looking to train full-time for a couple of reasons:

 

1. I'll receive a discount on lessons from the school I want to attend if I can put money on account with them; and

2. They'll house me for free if I go full time.

 

Number 1 will save me a significant amount of money up front, and number 2 will save me what I'm currently paying for rent times however long it would take me to train if I weren't going to school full time. Now, I don't have a huge savings, but I am gainfully employed at the moment. I have the option of drawing my training out over several years paying as I go, but for several reasons (financially related and otherwise) I want to go full time, meaning I'll need to take out a pretty hefty loan. I anticipate a lot of you saying "Don't take out a loan! Keep working! Save up!" I appreciate that advice, and may be forced to follow it if I can't get full funding, but I hope it's a last resort. So let's pretend I have no choice but to dive in head first and get a loan. Questions:

 

1. Since Sallie Mae is no longer offering career training loans, which I gather is how most civilian pilots have financed training in the past, what types of alternatives are there? I've already looked at Pilot Finance (who it doesn't seem have the means to fund anything more than part-time training, up to $9,000?), and I don't want to take out a massive $50K personal bank loan if the interest rate is going to eviscerate me.

2. Are Part-141 accredited schools eligible for federal aid? The school I'm looking at is on the verge of Part-141 accreditation, but is currently only Part-61.

3. Is it common to combine sources of funding? Like, if such things exist, can I get several lower-interest loans plus a Pilot Finance loan?

4. Has anyone gone through UVU or a similar program and achieved federal funding that way? Would you recommend doing that? Does that take longer than just shooting for your CFII by training the "normal" way?

 

Sorry if none of my questions make sense; I never had loans when I went to college so I'm unfamiliar with the whole process. I appreciate any and all advice you're able to give, so thanks a TON in advance as I try to navigate this mess.

[r22butters]

I got my funding through Key Bank while attending a part 141 school, and on-line classes at Utah Valley State. Flying twice a day, four to five days a week, it took six months to get through CFii.

 

I still, of course, have to say, DON'T BORROW MONEY! If you do it slowly, and pay as you go, by the time you finish there may be a few jobs opening up (and monkeys may fly out of my butt?), but, then again, I didn't listen to my Father either.

 

Good luck, and watch your money carefully, also, follow your training. Don't leave it up to the instructor to make sure you are being taught everything you need to be taught.

[apiaguy]

I think I'm going to barf.....

uhhhggggg.. that's better.

If I say something maybe you'll do the opposite...which seems to be the trend.

 

Pay for your training on your credit cards.. then when you get over 10000 in debt you can call up this ad I keep seeing on tv that will let you out of cc debt because you deserve a bailout too. Or you could apply for some stimulus funds from the gov't... I hear they had like 700 billion to give out.. what's 60k... lots of helicopter pilots.

 

I think Forest Gump said to Jenny....I think you should go BACK TO ALABAMA!

yep, now I've lost it.

[pilot255]

1. Since Sallie Mae is no longer offering career training loans, which I gather is how most civilian pilots have financed training in the past, what types of alternatives are there? I've already looked at Pilot Finance (who it doesn't seem have the means to fund anything more than part-time training, up to $9,000?), and I don't want to take out a massive $50K personal bank loan if the interest rate is going to eviscerate me.

 

There are still schools with Sallie Mae. You just have to do your research. Northeast Helicopters is in New England and they still have Sallie Mae. That might be an option for you.

[Hawkeye0001]

(I know it's not going to be easy. I've read a lot of the posts decrying the state of the industry, and while they're sobering, they're not deterring me from moving forward.)

Your dedication is honorable. I'm sure you read a lot of good advice and comments from younger and older guys about the way this industry is right now. And MAYBE there MIGHT be some truth in it. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

 

1. I'll receive a discount on lessons from the school I want to attend if I can put money on account with them; and

DON'T!

 

 

Number 1 will save me a significant amount of money up front

...or will cost you all. Even though there are other instances I just mention Silver State Helicopters. Do your own research and draw your conclusions. Pay as you go or put amounts of money in a school account that won't hurt you as much if your school goes broke (in the range of $2000-5000).

 

Now, I don't have a huge savings, but I am gainfully employed at the moment. I have the option of drawing my training out over several years paying as I go, but for several reasons (financially related and otherwise) I want to go full time, meaning I'll need to take out a pretty hefty loan.

Again: Why would you do that? The times for helicopter pilots are crappy, especially entry level. There are hundreds if not thousands of unemployed CFIs hoping for an entry level job and finally went back to their old jobs to pay back their loan. They are most likely out of flying for the rest of their life. What's the problem to take your time? You have a save job, you get payed well, you can fly every other afternoon or weekend and when times get better chances are you are just about to finish your training. Saves you a LOT of trouble. And money on the long run, too. It might cost you more to redo a lesson here and there but would it be cheaper to pay back a $70.000 loan with no job? Let me think about it.... err... NO!

 

 

I anticipate a lot of you saying "Don't take out a loan! Keep working! Save up!" I appreciate that advice, and may be forced to follow it if I can't get full funding, but I hope it's a last resort.

May I give you another advice? Don't take out a loan! Keep working! Save up!

Almost ALL of the guys I started with in several classes from PPL through CFI had to go back where they came from because they couldn't find a job and had to pay back their loans. And it's not because they were not smart enough - there are simply no jobs out there! And even though the situation might be better by the time you finish: there are still a lot of guys waiting in line in front of you.

 

I don't want to talk you out of flying. If it's what you want to do go for it. But take your time and don't step into the same trap like so many did before you during the last year. You are young, have a decent paying job and could afford to do everything step by step with a lot more security. So why not? You are still young by the time things pick up again.

 

 

Just my 2 cents.

[kygreen229]

Silverhawk here in Idaho still does salie mae as well. u pretty much guaranteed need a good cosigner to get sallie mae

[kygreen229]

Silverhawk here in Idaho still does salie mae as well. you're pretty much guaranteed to need a good cosigner to get sallie mae

[macatstarr]

You've got some great advice posted here; everyone is trying to give you "pearls," I hope your listening. Like I tell my wife, "I use logic it just make good sense!" women are notorious to for being irrational & impulsive, but thats another subject. If your no "Fortunate Son" (excellent Forest Gump sound track Reference; CCR) you'll have to proceed like the majority in chasing ur dreams. My $.02

 

1) if you're young; below 33 w/ an associates degree I'd suggest the WOFT program in the ARMY. You'll get the training you need, develop your leadership skills & more importantly your character, all of uncle sam's dime & be completely debt free. Honestly, it may & probably will suck at times, but you be a better person for it.

 

2) if you're hell bent on staying a civilian & chasing this dream, I like others suggest you work while training at the same time. There are several other occupations you can do will flight training, like working at night or shift work. I put myself through college as a firefighter. 24hrs on/ 48 hrs off. It worked excellent for me, even got better grads because I had dedicated "study time" at the fire house. Thats just one example. If you are young, single, & willing to travel the possibilities are endless. You just have to make it happen.

 

If you get nothing else from this, please reconsider taking a loan for training. Not only will it put you behind, but ur parents who because they luv you will proabably do the WRONG THING & consign w/ you. I will suggest you read; "http://thetruthabouttheprofession.weebly.com/" while it is for the fixed wing pilot, it applies to rotory wing as well. Most importantly the part about your ability to build wealth for retirement.

 

Be smart & use logic in your decision. If you really want it, it can be done.

[frumplestiltskin]

Thanks everyone for your input thus far. I don't want to get into huge debt hastily, but I am ITCHING to get training started, and stat. I love the idea of being immersed in training (living with helo pilots, being in the hangar every day) rather than only training when work allows (namely weekends). I'll continue to weigh my options, and appreciate all of your valuable advice.

[macatstarr]

Sounds like your wrapped up in the novelty of it all. Can't say i haven't been there too. Best of luck

 

"When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years." Mark Twain

[Miloe]

Put me down for another person chiming in with the 'don't put more money on account than you can afford to loose'. Saving that 10% is great and all but if you loose 10k because of the money on account comes up gone, that's really going to hose up the works.

Times are tough for CFIs and also for schools right now, I know no one plans on going out of business but stuff happens.

I don't know anything about where you are thinking about training at and am not trying to put you off on training with them, but I feel that advise should apply anywhere.

[Spirit of '69]

also ask your school if the discount applies if you plunk down bux for a block of lessons. the school i'm interested in gives the 10% discount if you pay for 5 lessons at a time. i'm currently saving to start training next january, going twice a week til i'm near enough to the end for pilot finance to cover me and go full time at the end. time may not be a bad thing, since the prospects right now couldn't be much worse. if the loan rates aren't too bad and you get a loan, let us know how it goes for you. good luck.

[NC AV8R]

I once was in your shoes. I realized pretty early on that taking out a huge loan was not the way for me to do it. It might be the easiest and the fastest way to accomplish your goal of being a helicopter pilot but it's definitely not the smartest way with the economy how it is right now.

 

Even if you are lucky enough to find a job instructing after you complete training, how will you pay bills and make payments on that big loan you took out? A lot of pilots I know had to have a second job while instructing just to make ends meet. I encourage you to think further down the road. Have a plan and a backup plan.

 

I will say I have not achieved my aviation goals yet. But as soon as I return from Afghanistan in a couple weeks, I am set up financially to complete training without taking out loans and I have a full time job waiting on me to pay the bills. It might take me a little longer than I'd like to complete all the ratings but hopefully by that time the heli industry and economy will be a little more stable.

 

If you must take out a loan... Treat the money as if you worked for it. Don't put 70,000 in an account. Bad decision. As some others have posted, many schools will give the same discount for smaller blocks. The school that I attended to get my PPL gave the same discount for a $5,000 block. Do your research. Have a plan and a backup plan.

[frumplestiltskin]

Well hey folks,

I'm bringing this topic back from the grave. Here's the deal:

I'm now a year into my training. I have about 50 hours, mostly in the R22, and am close to taking the PPL oral/practical. I have come a long way in this first year.

I have a few concerns, though. I am now working two jobs to be able to fly five or six hours per month. I have SERIOUS ground fever for the rest of the week. My two jobs don't afford me a lot of study time, so I feel like I'm slipping backwards on the ground work side of things. Since my mind is occupied with non-helicopter junk for 95% of my waking hours, I don't feel I'm giving as much attention to flying as I should be. Each time I sit down to study, it's a battle to understand the millions of acronyms/documents/regulations/weather products/etc. that I feel should be behind me at this point. It feels like I'm progressing at a snail's pace, if at all, since I'm not immersed in the stuff.

The point is, I'm really starting to rethink the whole loan thing. Sallie Mae is once again offering Career Training Smart Option loans, and I'm drooling over the idea of being able to fly and learn every day without other crap taking up my brain space.

I want to take my training as seriously as possible. I thought that working hard and making enough money to stay out of debt was a good expression of how serious I was taking it, but it doesn't seem like that after a year. I'd love to hear your advice, and thanks in advance for taking the time to help a wretch like me!

[Boatpix]

Well hey folks,

I'm bringing this topic back from the grave. Here's the deal:

I'm now a year into my training. I have about 50 hours, mostly in the R22, and am close to taking the PPL oral/practical. I have come a long way in this first year.

I have a few concerns, though. I am now working two jobs to be able to fly five or six hours per month. I have SERIOUS ground fever for the rest of the week. My two jobs don't afford me a lot of study time, so I feel like I'm slipping backwards on the ground work side of things. Since my mind is occupied with non-helicopter junk for 95% of my waking hours, I don't feel I'm giving as much attention to flying as I should be. Each time I sit down to study, it's a battle to understand the millions of acronyms/documents/regulations/weather products/etc. that I feel should be behind me at this point. It feels like I'm progressing at a snail's pace, if at all, since I'm not immersed in the stuff.

The point is, I'm really starting to rethink the whole loan thing. Sallie Mae is once again offering Career Training Smart Option loans, and I'm drooling over the idea of being able to fly and learn every day without other crap taking up my brain space.

I want to take my training as seriously as possible. I thought that working hard and making enough money to stay out of debt was a good expression of how serious I was taking it, but it doesn't seem like that after a year. I'd love to hear your advice, and thanks in advance for taking the time to help a wretch like me!

 

 

I would get the ppl(h) completed as quickly as possible and then look around for cheaper alternatives to completing the other ratings. Your actual cost per hour can vary with a program that we have costing only $200/hour and in your area we fly during June, July and August and keep you in your current job by bringing a helicopter to you. In the past, we had Sallie Mae loans but many got consumed by the interest rates and the multiple of the higher hourly rate of the schools that have SLM. Call me if you have some questions, TOM561-346-2816

[r22butters]

My loan payments started out around $400, so even if I had found a job, as a Cfi making around $800, it still would have been very difficult to make the payments (even living in my car!).

 

I, of course, could not find a job, and, for a while, had my loan in deferment, while attending Utah Valley State (on-line). When my tuition went up, I realized it would be about the same to just start paying off my loan. I had a decent job at the time (not flying), so I decided to drop out, and start paying it back (of course by now my payments were up around $500).

 

A couple of years later (still an unemployed pilot), the economy went South, taking with it my decent job. At the same time my Lender decided to raise my payment to $750.

 

I have been in default ever since!

 

Even if things work out for you (and they have to, almost immediately!), its still very difficult to keep yourself alive, and make your loan payment!

 

If things don't work out, it can ruin your life pretty quickly!

 

DON'T BORROW MONEY TO ENTER AN OVERCROWDED INDUSTRY, WHO'S STARTING PAY IS JACK sh*t!

[apiaguy]

love it....

best reply on VR in a while.

[Goldy]

K, I stayed out of this for a year now. Whatever you do, do two things. Go finish your PPL while you can, do NOT take out a loan you have no hope of repaying. If you want it that bad, you can keep working those two jobs for it. Anything else is the foolish way into flying.

 

I spent four years flying whenever I could scrape up a buck (it was $90 an hour back then!!) before I even got to solo.

 

Once you get your PPL, you should look at all options to gain some time, including Boatpix. Not sure what Tom said in his post that got him 5 dings.....but its an option, like others, that you can consider.

 

Meanwhile there are 1000 free things you can do to learn and keep your skills sharper, from website training, practice tests, college courses, FAAST seminars, HAI seminars, FAA seminars, AOPA seminars, and the list goes on. If you are not doing these FREE things, well, then no advice would help ya!

 

Good Luck,

[kodoz]

Meanwhile there are 1000 free things you can do to learn and keep your skills sharper, from website training, practice tests, college courses, FAAST seminars, HAI seminars, FAA seminars, AOPA seminars, and the list goes on. If you are not doing these FREE things, well, then no advice would help ya!

 

Ignore the fact that those things aren't as fun as flying and take the advice! If you're serious about making a career of this, there's no limit to what you should be doing to build your knowledge.

 

Get your PPL knocked off by getting ahead on your ground and giving the flying a rest. Stick skills come back fast, even when you don't fly for long periods. When you are ready to do your ground pre-check ride stage check, get your flying back up to speed and go for your ride.

 

After that, sit on your PPL while you start studying up on your instrument rating. When you get the itch to fly, practice instrument maneuvers on a PC sim. Save up enough to pay for most of your instrument rating, get your knowledge to where you could teach your instructor the material. Then, in one fell swoop, take your knowledge test, do the ground, get your flights in, and take the check ride.

 

Back in '06 or '07, maybe there was a reason to rush through training. With the economy the way it is now though.... Let it pick up some, get in mid-way thru the next bubble, then ride into a turbine job before it peaks.

[frumplestiltskin]

Thanks for the advice as always, fellas. I want to go about this as intelligently as possible, weighing all factors, and it's a really tough decision. I'll stick at it for now, get my PPL on my own dime, and figure it out from there. I love all of the FAASTeam courses you can take and will continue to take those in my free time, plus take advantage of other resources mentioned above. Patience is not my strong suit when I'm really jazzed on something, so hopefully this whole experience will strengthen that skill too!

Again, I really appreciate your advice - it's priceless to a guy like me who would just as soon sell a kidney to fly!