Opinions on learning in a 280FX?

[r22butters]

No R22's in Colorado? I guess that's why I couldn't find a mountain course in one. I'm sure you could fly an R22 up there in Summer, you'd just have to do it alone.

 

I love flying the R22, but come to think about it, I'm flying solo about 98% of the time.

 

But I guess weight has always been the R22's 'Achilles' Heel'. Its passenger seat is kind of like the back seat in a sports car, sure, you can put someone in there, but they have to be really, really, small!

 

Matt, if you plan to teach for a while(instead of just to build time for a "real" job, like most of us), stick with the Enstrom, you'll live longer! That thing's built like a Tank!

[apiaguy]

I have another question that i have wanted to ask for a long time.. seriously, not to be negative, but what happens if the turbo on an enstrom fails?? especially at altitude.. will it fly up here with out it? What is it's oge hover with out the turbine?

 

thanks,

 

dp

 

 

after your rant about being part of the solution you insert a comment that dogs the enstrom...?

[RkyMtnHI]

after your rant about being part of the solution you insert a comment that dogs the enstrom...?

 

I have another question that i have wanted to ask for a long time.. seriously, not to be negative, but what happens if the turbo on an enstrom fails?? especially at altitude.. will it fly up here with out it? What is it's oge hover with out the turbo?

 

didn't mean to dog the Enstrom.. honest.. that's why i separated it and said "seriously, not to be negative".. i just have always wondered about the turbo. one of the local instructors that flies the 280 said that it wouldn't hover up here without the turbo.. i just wondered if that is true and how much it mattered.. i expected Clay & John to speak up about it.. There are many people that i know and trust that LOVE the ship.. just always wondered about that comment.

 

We have seriously looked at the 480 for a turbine option and i really like it..

 

The point of my rant was that if you want to get a job teaching, especially now for the next year or so, maybe longer, you better be flying ships that make you marketable... now, if you can get a job at the school that flies Bell 47s and that's what the school owns, then fly them.. that first job is the key... period. (Unless you just want to fly for fun or can buy your own helicopter). I know of a guy that got a job flying at the Grand Canyon that had all Rotorway time.. his time and his perseverance got him a job.. it didn't matter much where he got his ~1500 hours.. BUT, you have to GET that 1500 hours and that's the hard part for now.

 

 

sorry for the confusion,

 

dp

[RkyMtnHI]

After my drive in today and reflection on my comments i have to admit that i have some regrets as to my delivery.. and want to apologize if i offended anyone.. it was not my intention.

 

I guess i take this stuff a little too seriously at times but i see kids all the time that have been sold the incorrect information and are now stuck (three last week). I know i cannot help them all but it frustrates me to no end, and believe that we can help the next 'generation' of CFIs.. I cannot tell you the number of pilots that tell me they watch VR for information, and we must keep that in mind when we are posting here.

 

I also realize that we (Heliops) are not perfect and in no way do i want everyone to think that i do.. believe me we make mistakes too... but we do care and hope to change some of the issues that haunt me..

 

aloha,

 

dp

[Mikemv]

Yo DP, turbo charged engines that have a turbo failure will not produce normal power and may produce far less than needed to hover at the bottom of an approach. They will definetly bite you if it fails during take off with a high MP requirement! That said, most do not fail if operated properly and the idle cool down time requirement is applied and practiced religiously. I know you got into the (Damned Internet) mode earlier. I certainly have been there, Mike

[280fxColorado]

DP-- Straight from the POH.

 

"Turbocharger or wastegate failure will be evidenced by loss of manifold pressure

if the engine is being operated at manifold pressures above ambient pressure. It

should be possible to maintain level flight at reduced airspeeds and altitudes as

the engine should be capable of maintaining pressure close to ambient pressure.

If the turbocharger seizes or the wastegate seizes in the full bypass condition,

proceed as follows.

1. Perform a power check to confirm power available for landing.

2. Land as soon as practicable being prepared to make a run-on landing."

 

With a normal load, our Enstrom 280fx will hover with (roughly!) 27-29in MAP on a cool day in Erie, and 35-36in MAP with a normal load on a 9000ft DA summer day. The turbocharger allows us to pull 39in. At 5,200' MSL, our ambient pressure is just shy of 25" mercury. So you are correct, an Enstrom will not likely sustain a hover at these altitudes w/o it's turbocharger. This is why we practice run-on landings and 0/0 landings, maintaining MP below ambient pressure.

 

(edit) However, as Mikemv points out, (from the manufacturer) "A seizure of the turbocharger causes the MAP to fall 2 inches below naturally aspirated conditions because of the backpressure at the turbo." This means approx 23in MAP available w/o the turbo at Mile High City elevation. This is still very manageable (straight and level no problem, run-on landing). If the turbo failed at the 280fx service ceiling (12,000ft), its appears that the engine could only produce 16in MAP(?), and we might be in trouble if incapable of shedding sufficient altitude and forced to land. As to reliability, "A Kelly Aerospace turbocharger is basically very simple in its design and function. This simplicity coupled with its rugged features assures a long and satisfying operating life. With consistent care and maintenance, these turbochargers will often outlast the engine." (overview of the Kelly turbocharger).

 

I have been asking around and have heard very little about actual Enstrom turbocharger failures. Does anyone have a good example? A quick search of NTSB accident reports yields nothing (except a comforting feeling after noticing the majority of accidents are "Nonfatal". In the last 10 years, only 4 accidents led to fatalities--Wires, terrain, Wires, fuel exhaustion). Nothing related to the turbo. Trusting our equipment is a risk we take as pilots but we work hard to maintain and inspect our machines properly and minimize this risk. These birds rely on a lot of moving parts to stay in the air, but the turbocharger seems to be a fairly safe bet.

 

Cheers,

Jon

 

PS: HERE's a good long discussion on PPRUNE between various pilots and operators on the many praises and shortcomings of this unique bird.

 

From "Ga Chopper":

"That may be true (that the chopper wont hover) if hovering at higher gross weights with calm winds and hot outside temperatures, but that is not true for forward flight at speeds above ETL. If the turbo fails in a hover or prior to accelerating thru ETL, the ship would slowy settle to the ground. With full fuel and two people onboard, I can set 23" to 25" MAP and easily do a "run-on" takeoff, be airborne once thru ETL and climbout conservatively.

 

I normally use 28" to 29" MAP in forward flight for a cruise power setting which yeilds about 95 MPH, that's only about 1" to 2" of boost above ambient.

 

In the traffic pattern or for slower flight, I set about 23'"to 25" MAP which yeilds about 70 to 80 MPH. No turbocharger required at these power settings, it's operating just as a normally aspirated engine does without any turbo-boost at all.

 

For a desent or approach I set about 18" MAP which yeilds about 70 MPH with a descent rate of 500 fpm.

 

Bottom line: if the turbo quits, the ship "WILL NOT fall out of the sky! But transitioning back into a hover prior to landing will have to be accomplished quickly or a run-on landing at low airspeed will also work fine. I frequently practice this non-normal procedure just in case and it is no big deal at all."

Edited June 18, 2010 by 280fxColorado

[280fxColorado]

I really do love this machine

 

http://www.looptv.aero/LTVUser6692/1708/EnstromdisplayatNorthWealdFadedCuts.aspx

 

PS: NOT recommended maneuvers! Do not try this at home! May lead to this...:

Edited May 31, 2010 by 280fxColorado

[clay]

Thanks for the good words DP, been in mexico for a week or so with no internet access.

Edited June 6, 2010 by clay

[Goldy]

Thanks for the good words DP, been in mexico for a week or so with no internet access.

 

Clay-I wondered where you were, an Enstrom post and you weren't part of it??

[clay]

My apologies Goldy. I was in a world of no internet and less cell phone service. but had a blast.

 

anyway,

It's possible to find work being an Enstrom guy, but it is a bit more of a challenge. Someone posted earlier and mentioned Cameron out in San Francisco, He's a great guy who knows a TON about Enstrom's and a great source of information.