Upper Limit and SLCC

[CaptainDune]

I am curious if anyone has any info on upperlimit aviation? If you talk to those guys they make it sound like its the best program on the planet. But I have seen 4 guys transfer there after their private ratings and to this day they still do not have their commercial ratings. The guys in their class are now graduated and hired at the school they left.

 

When I called Upper limit they said their program is 4 semesters long, but then how is it been a year and these guys aren't working on their CFI or II yet.

 

My main concern is with a school like this that is just pumping out turbine time and charging $300,000 is it could very easily ruin it for everyone. We all know that flight training is expensive, but it should cost 1/3 of that to complete all 5 of your ratings. The government is looking to cut spending all over, and they already did with the private schools utilizing ch 33 benefits. Who's to say they don't nix the flight training as a whole because some asshat school is giving 300 hours and up to 100 turbine hours IN TRAINING.

 

This worries me because the Post 9/11 GI Bill is my livlihood at the moment, if it wasn't for that I wouldn't have a job. There is a ton of stuff that bothers me about this school but the sheer abuse of the VA benefits system is the worst part, I am all for getting flight training done, but since when do we need 100 hours of turbine coming out of training to be employable?

 

Does anyone else find what ULA and SLCC to be somewhat unethical or am I just being an old hag?

Edited September 7, 2011 by CaptainDune

[gary-mike]

I agree, no need for turbine training, long line, ect.

 

You are not alone in your fears of losing this great program. It won't take long before we all lose it if it is being abused by schools and students.

[r22butters]

If you talk to those guys they make it sound like its the best program on the planet. But I have seen 4 guys transfer there after their private ratings and to this day they still do not have their commercial ratings. The guys in their class are now graduated and hired at the school they left.

 

When I was training (at a school in Phoenix) we had two guys come over from another local school, both of whom had around 50hrs, an neither of whom had even left the traffic pattern at their home airport (or even soloed for that matter)!

 

Last I heard of that school, it was touted as being one of the best (they even claimed to have an in with one of the Grand Canyon operators) and its still run by the same people.

 

The moral of this story is; you can't tell "jack" from "hear-say", and unfortunately picking a school is always a "crap-shoot"!

[CaptainDune]

When I was training (at a school in Phoenix) we had two guys come over from another local school, both of whom had around 50hrs, an neither of whom had even left the traffic pattern at their home airport (or even soloed for that matter)!

 

Last I heard of that school, it was touted as being one of the best (they even claimed to have an in with one of the Grand Canyon operators) and its still run by the same people.

 

The moral of this story is; you can't tell "jack" from "hear-say", and unfortunately picking a school is always a "crap-shoot"!

 

I disagree, there shouldn't be a crap shoot in any school you choose. It's all about proper research and making sure the facility is right for you. Before I selected the school I went to, I visited several, talked to their students, researched them and made my decision based on my own research and findings. It's only a crapshoot if you don't do your homework.

 

This is somewhat besides the point. The one I was trying to get across is the morality of making an obscene profit off of the government funded GI Bill while doing unnecessary training (i.e. you entire commercial ticket in a 206).

[supergokougt]

I went ULA for my heli instrument. I thought the school was really good. They run a tight ship but because they had a sim I saved a lot of money on the training. I mean it still wasn't cheap but I only used 26 hours of 44 time and the rest was sim.

 

The instructors were very accommodating and friendly.

 

As for speed. I think it is left up to the student. My friend is doing it along with college so i know his loans are what slow him down. But if you have the money source you could finish as quick as you wanted.

 

I did my instrument in about 6 weeks because I went prepared and they flew the schedule I had made.

 

I don't know about the GI Bill but I do hear they have a lot of the guys flying turbines the whole way - this is totally he said she said though. I also hear the guys using the bill are heavy weights and thats another reason they are turbine training.

 

GO in with the plan of flying 22's and 44's but when you are done and meet the robinson requirements and you still have money left get the mountain, long line and turbine time. you won't need it for a while but it will pad the resume later.

 

Many of my old instructors all work with papillion(not sure of spelling) in vegas and different parts of the grand canyon.

 

In the end if I didn't have my job that was paying the bills at the time I would have stayed on - they even were trying to set up something where i would instruct with them and work at the community college.

 

I know there is a lot of press lately but, Good school in my opinion while i was there 2 years ago.

[helihawk]

I am currently a student at Upper Limit Aviation, and chose them after looking at a number of schools, including factory training academies. Alhough I'm a Private Pay student, one of the reasons I chose ULA is how well they are set up with the VA/Post 9-11 GI Bill. Private financing has all but dried up, and unless you want to stay a CFI forever, you'd better have some clients to teach!

 

ULA was the first to be approved as a flight school for the Chap 33, and are approved for enough $ for someone to finish a rating per semester, unlike some schools that are either extending out training because they're not approved for enough, or are pushing students through at minimums before their money runs out. This is according to people I've talked to that have transferred from other schools.

 

As for the turbine training, I feel that these soldiers have earned the benefit, and I like that they have it available here. You can debate whether it's neccessary now or not, but they'll all be flying turbine aircraft eventually. I would ask, how is advanced training they'll eventually need a bad thing? I've seen the VA be very vigilant about the numbers and audit everything...it wouldn't be available if it wasn't deemed valuable.

[gary-mike]

As for the turbine training, I feel that these soldiers have earned the benefit, and I like that they have it available here. You can debate whether it's neccessary now or not, but they'll all be flying turbine aircraft eventually. I would ask, how is advanced training they'll eventually need a bad thing? I've seen the VA be very vigilant about the numbers and audit everything...it wouldn't be available if it wasn't deemed valuable.

 

I agree that the benefit is earned, my concern is that many others may lose the same benefit that they also earned. When the Government is looking in every nook and cranny for ways to cut spending you have to be concerned about losing something they already seem reluctant to pay for.

 

Turbine transition, Maybe, but not really going to help a whole lot. Taking a whole commercial course in a turbine? Sounds like what we call fraud waste and abuse in the military. Why not let the employers suck up this cost.

 

Don't get me wrong, it sounds like a great deal but I don't know if Me getting turbine time is more important than the person behind me getting a chance to pursue thier dream too.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to dog ULA, just concerned about how some schools are using the GI bill.

[2244Bell206]

I am one of the four that left Guidance and transferred to Upper Limit Aviation. Actually it is at least six now. As I've went to both schools I will try to tell you a few things I like and dislike.

Salt Lake community college has had an aviation program for almost 25 years. Aviation classes taught at Salt Lake community college include: private pilot ground school, instrument ground school, commercial ground school, CFI ground school, aerodynamics, human factors and safety, air transportation, aviation meteorology, aviation orientation. (This link is to SLCC’s Fall 2011 class schedule; the pilot classes start on page 235; http://www.slcc.edu/schedule/docs/201140_schedule_full.pdf)

Salt Lake community college actually has an aviation department. They have fixed wing, rotor wing and an A&P program (http://www.slcc.edu/aviationtechnology/index.asp).

When I went to Yavapai College they just had rotor wing and no real department at the college; you just had to speak with someone at the vendor (helicopter school) for most of your information. I don't know whether it is still this way but when I went to Yavapai College they were trying to force aviation students to take their classes at a campus in another town outside of Prescott.

I really like being in a larger city like Salt Lake City Utah. The town of Prescott Arizona was a little too small for me. There are many more things to do and much easier to find a part-time jobs in a larger city.

One of the big problems I had with Yavapai Collage it takes two semesters to get your private license. When I was there you got 30 hours one semester and 30 hours in the next in an R22. But if you could not make it in the 30 hours per semester you would have to retake the semester. I did not think flying 30 hours a semester was enough to get really proficient.

At Salt Lake Community College and Upper Limit Aviation you can get up to 95 flight hours in your private and you can do it in one semester if you want to. At Salt Lake Community College, the private pilot course allots for 95 hours of flight and 51 hours of ground in the R22; the total cost is $34,725. Private pilot ground cost of $652.00 is based on Salt Lake Community College’s per credit hour rate of $163(in-state tuition); plus $34,725 for flight 95 flight training hours results in a total cost of $35,377.00.

When I was at Yavapai College and Guidance the first semester I paid $15,000.00 for 30 hours of flight and $5,256.00 for the ground school/Helicopter Registration. The second semester I paid $15,000.00 for 30 hours of flight and $3,285.00 for ground school/Helicopter Registration. This is a total of $38,541.00 for 60 hours of flight. So if we are going to talk about over charging let us compare apples to apples.

[CaptainDune]

I agree that the benefit is earned, my concern is that many others may lose the same benefit that they also earned. When the Government is looking in every nook and cranny for ways to cut spending you have to be concerned about losing something they already seem reluctant to pay for.

 

Turbine transition, Maybe, but not really going to help a whole lot. Taking a whole commercial course in a turbine? Sounds like what we call fraud waste and abuse in the military. Why not let the employers suck up this cost.

 

Don't get me wrong, it sounds like a great deal but I don't know if Me getting turbine time is more important than the person behind me getting a chance to pursue thier dream too.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to dog ULA, just concerned about how some schools are using the GI bill.

 

My thoughts exactly, I don't have personal experience with them, just from a friend that transfered there that is not happy with the time it is taking to complete the courses. He is also not real happy about the accident record there, which has been beaten to dirt on these forums so I won't stir that up too much.

 

Helihawk, what you need to understand is that there is no longer state caps for any state thanks to Senate Bill 3447 passed in Jan '11. Virtually any school can charge whatever they want for fees each semester as long as the College they are associated with approves it. So with that in mind, why isn't everyone charging $90,000 per semester to profit off of turbine helos? Probably because they have some concern about the future of this GI Bill in relation to flight training. To me it just seems seriously unethical on ULAs part, SLCCs part and especially the VA education director for that region that approved such an expesnive program.

 

Don't get me wrong, it sounds great as long as I don't care about the people who are serving in the Stan right now but will not have a chance to fly helicopters because schools TOOK ADVANTAGE of the Post 9/11 GI Bill. Pretty soon we will all be back on the montgomery GI Bill and see a maximum of 35k or whatever it is now over the course of 4 years.

 

Helihawk, please don't take this as a dig on you, I am just starting a discussion with my concerns.

[Spike]

Choosing the correct flight school for ab-initio training is an extremely important part of pursuing this career. Choose the wrong school and you could find yourself with no certificates, no job, and no future. This could be the case regardless of your VA status, or not….

 

To be clear, there are many flight schools which offer VA programs and provide the training to the best of their abilities. However, there are flight schools who clearly take advantage of these programs. ANY flight school requiring ANY of the training to be conducted in a turbine is clearly taking advantage of the program. It has nothing to do with the Veteran earning a benefit but everything to do with a company profiting from the benefit. Simply put, this practice is purely a rip-off because it offers no benefit to the Veteran as there is no need for turbine time to qualify for the minimum hiring requirements for any entry level helicopter pilot position. Surly, when was the last time you saw a want-ad posted that required the applicant needed 200 hours total time with 100 hours turbine……. That would be never……

 

The most significant benefit a flight school can offer you is a job as a CFI once you graduate. Anything less is moot….

 

Lastly, if the school is comfortable with ripping off the government, then it’s easy to say, they’ll be comfortable ripping you off as well……

[CaptainDune]

Choosing the correct flight school for ab-initio training is an extremely important part of pursuing this career. Choose the wrong school and you could find yourself with no certificates, no job, and no future. This could be the case regardless of your VA status, or not….

 

To be clear, there are many flight schools which offer VA programs and provide the training to the best of their abilities. However, there are flight schools who clearly take advantage of these programs. ANY flight school requiring ANY of the training to be conducted in a turbine is clearly taking advantage of the program. It has nothing to do with the Veteran earning a benefit but everything to do with a company profiting from the benefit. Simply put, this practice is purely a rip-off because it offers no benefit to the Veteran as there is no need for turbine time to qualify for the minimum hiring requirements for any entry level helicopter pilot position. Surly, when was the last time you saw a want-ad posted that required the applicant needed 200 hours total time with 100 hours turbine……. That would be never……

 

The most significant benefit a flight school can offer you is a job as a CFI once you graduate. Anything less is moot….

 

Lastly, if the school is comfortable with ripping off the government, then it’s easy to say, they’ll be comfortable ripping you off as well……

 

 

 

Couldn't agree more, words of wisdom.

[2244Bell206]

I have never heard of any school Requiring you to have turbine time and I go to Upper limit Aviation. I keep hearing about this accident record from people that work for guidance. I went to guidance So I looked up Guidance Helicopter Accidents . They have nine accidents, six accidents in the last three years that was one of the reasons I left GHI. NTSB Repot number WPR11CA264, WPR11CA031, WPR09CA360, WPR09CA224, LAX08CA298, LAX08CA126, LAX03CA215, LAX05LA122, LAX02LA239.

 

Upper Limit Aviation $22,343.00 for 60 flight hours in R22 and private ground school.

 

Guidance Helicopter $38,541.00 for 60 flight hours in R22 and private ground school.

 

“The most significant benefit a flight school can offer you is a job as a CFI once you graduate. Anything less is moot….”

 

“Lastly, if the school is comfortable with ripping off the government, then it’s easy to say, they’ll be comfortable ripping you off as well……”

 

PS. I really love being at Upper Limit Aviation. This was one of the reasons I left GHI they love to talk bad about others. This is one of the first blogs I have ever done but when I read them writing about me one of the ones that transferred I had to start. I think I really like this blogging thing.

[gary-mike]

I have never heard of any school Requiring you to have turbine time and I go to Upper limit Aviation. I keep hearing about this accident record from people that work for guidance. I went to guidance So I looked up Guidance Helicopter Accidents . They have nine accidents, six accidents in the last three years that was one of the reasons I left GHI. NTSB Repot number WPR11CA264, WPR11CA031, WPR09CA360, WPR09CA224, LAX08CA298, LAX08CA126, LAX03CA215, LAX05LA122, LAX02LA239.

 

Upper Limit Aviation $22,343.00 for 60 flight hours in R22 and private ground school.

 

Guidance Helicopter $38,541.00 for 60 flight hours in R22 and private ground school.

 

“The most significant benefit a flight school can offer you is a job as a CFI once you graduate. Anything less is moot….”

 

“Lastly, if the school is comfortable with ripping off the government, then it’s easy to say, they’ll be comfortable ripping you off as well……”

 

PS. I really love being at Upper Limit Aviation. This was one of the reasons I left GHI they love to talk bad about others. This is one of the first blogs I have ever done but when I read them writing about me one of the ones that transferred I had to start. I think I really like this blogging thing.

 

Proof again that you should do your research on your own and not just follow any random post on a forum. This thread is great in that it brings up or reminds people of questions to be asking and areas to research before signing up.

 

As for the $ figures, they both seem double what I thought they should be but I would have to go back and check average hrs advertised.

 

I still feel the question asked has yet to be answered. Is it true ULA is putting Vets through a full commercial cert in a turbine ACFT? If so why?

[rick1128]

I agree, no need for turbine training, long line, ect.

 

You are not alone in your fears of losing this great program. It won't take long before we all lose it if it is being abused by schools and students.

 

GM, While I agree with you that things like turbine time and long line shouldn't be required, it doesn't mean that these could not be valuable. I did a 5 hours long line course a few years ago and found it helped me become much smoother in control handling than I already was.

[gary-mike]

GM, While I agree with you that things like turbine time and long line shouldn't be required, it doesn't mean that these could not be valuable. I did a 5 hours long line course a few years ago and found it helped me become much smoother in control handling than I already was.

 

Oh, I agree there is value in long line, turbine transition, ect. From what I have read and been told though, is that once you get hired on with a company they will train you themselves or pay for you to go through the training. Also I would guess that operating a long line is a perishable skill (how much does the average Insructor use a long line?)

 

My point is, I'm sure these courses are good but, I think there is a time and a place for them... Maybe 200 hr pilot isn't the best suited for such training. Instead how about send them to a "Principals of Instruction course", or some training about different learning methods and how to deal with different types of students. Maybe even some communication classes. Their first job is more than likely going to be teaching people right?

[CaptainDune]

I have never heard of any school Requiring you to have turbine time and I go to Upper limit Aviation. I keep hearing about this accident record from people that work for guidance. I went to guidance So I looked up Guidance Helicopter Accidents . They have nine accidents, six accidents in the last three years that was one of the reasons I left GHI. NTSB Repot number WPR11CA264, WPR11CA031, WPR09CA360, WPR09CA224, LAX08CA298, LAX08CA126, LAX03CA215, LAX05LA122, LAX02LA239.

 

Upper Limit Aviation $22,343.00 for 60 flight hours in R22 and private ground school.

 

Guidance Helicopter $38,541.00 for 60 flight hours in R22 and private ground school.

 

“The most significant benefit a flight school can offer you is a job as a CFI once you graduate. Anything less is moot….”

 

“Lastly, if the school is comfortable with ripping off the government, then it’s easy to say, they’ll be comfortable ripping you off as well……”

 

PS. I really love being at Upper Limit Aviation. This was one of the reasons I left GHI they love to talk bad about others. This is one of the first blogs I have ever done but when I read them writing about me one of the ones that transferred I had to start. I think I really like this blogging thing.

 

 

I think you misunderstood my post. I was not bashing on anyone or any school, I just had questions that I could not answer myself and was hoping there were people on this forum that could educate me.

 

I was simply raising the question of cost of a turbine aircraft and why it was necessary to add that into initial flight training. As for the cost of Guidance, the program is 5 semesters at 15,000 flight training per semester (that was the state cap). So the total cost was 75,000 in flight training fees for all your ratings. The private rating fees was meant to cover the cost of the intrument and commercial hours that AZ did not allow them to charge. The reason is that with a state cap of 15,000, how can you provide 74 hours of flight in commercial with only 15,000? The answer is you cannot, and you have to over charge other semesters so that the TOTAL cost of the program equals out.

 

R22 = $344/hr w/ instructor and fuel

R44 = $560/hr w/ instructor and fuel (I think)

 

175hrs total x 344 = 60,200

25hrs total x 560 = 14,000

Total Flight time cost = 74,200

15,000 fees x 5 semesters = 75,000

A total difference of $800 over the coarse of the program.

 

I assume the remaining cost was for the 1 on 1 ground or something. But as you can see the TOTAL cost of the program for a student that does the work and passes first time as they should is pretty much right on the money.

 

As for students that do not pass the first time like the one you bring up, that is his/her own fault for not passing, when 90% of the students pass everything first time with zero issues. I think everyone can agree that flying just isn't for some people (like the person you brought up probably).

 

Regardless of how many hours he/she has, if they don't have their private rating in 100 hours, flying may not be for them, because we all know Guidance is pushing most everyone through private in under 60 hours (I did mine in 49 here). Maybe the person you are talking about just shouldn't be flying?

 

When I brought up the transfer students, I meant to say that if the program at ULA is 4 semesters, then why are you not done yet? The class you left behind here at Guidance are all flight instructors here now.

 

Don't take a post like this so personal, I was bringing up a topic of extreme costs being sent to the VA for training that doesn't need to happen. Not bringing up how awful a school is or its students.

Edited September 14, 2011 by CaptainDune
edited for name content

[CaptainDune]

Proof again that you should do your research on your own and not just follow any random post on a forum. This thread is great in that it brings up or reminds people of questions to be asking and areas to research before signing up.

 

As for the $ figures, they both seem double what I thought they should be but I would have to go back and check average hrs advertised.

 

I still feel the question asked has yet to be answered. Is it true ULA is putting Vets through a full commercial cert in a turbine ACFT? If so why?

 

 

I answered the cost at GHI. Still curious about whats going on w/ the turbine myself.

[RagMan]

Keep hearing all of these bad stories about Guidance and Upper Limit, yet no bad things about Leading Edge Aviation. If you don't want to be disappointed, you ought to come fly with LEA up here in Oregon.

[2244Bell206]

Does Leading Edge Aviation offer turbine in there course.

[2244Bell206]

You guys have a nice day. I think I got my point out when people start forums like this just to talk bad about others. Sometimes it’s hard to see that they have other motives. Like if they don’t have something someone else has then you talk bad about it. Yes I had other motives. I want Guidance to stop writing half-truths. So I will keep a close watch on the blogs and hopefully I won’t have to blog any more.

[Spike]

As for students that do not pass the first time like the one you bring up, that is his/her own fault for not passing, when 90% of the students pass everything first time with zero issues. I think everyone can agree that flying just isn't for some people (like the person you brought up probably).

 

All flight schools that utilize a PART 141 curriculum must have an 80% first-time pass rate in order to maintain the PART 141 Certification. Thus, it’s not uncommon for these schools to have a high pass rate. How do they do this? With the figures associated with the schools recently mentioned, it should be easy. VERY easy. However, not all students can cut the mustard even when the curriculum is twice the norm. Nevertheless, if there is any doubt about the students’ ability for a first-time check-ride pass, they are simply “bumped” off the 141 and scheduled as a PART 61 check-ride which protects the pass rate……. BTDT… Simply put, its all smoke and mirrors……

 

You see PART 141 programs have no check-ride requirement, only a training requirement so it’s not uncommon to have schools advertise a high first-time pass rate because only the “switched on” folks are allowed to attempt the ride.. The fed’s, and therefore by association the VA, could care less if you take a 61 or 141 ride and the reality is, there is no difference between the two. It’s the curriculum that matters to them, not the check-ride……

Edited September 12, 2011 by Spike

[CaptainDune]

This topic got completely off subject and I apologize. This was not supposed to be such a personal, heated battle. Apologies to those who were offended by this thread or its content as it appears to have unfolded.

[Collin]

Leading Edge does offer Turbine Transition. Twenty hours, five used for the transition and the other fifteen used for either mountain or external load training.

[CaptainDune]

Leading Edge does offer Turbine Transition. Twenty hours, five used for the transition and the other fifteen used for either mountain or external load training.

 

 

Sounds excellent. Leading edge really does sound great, never heard anything bad from them.