FAA-H-8083-23

[Mikemv]

To All,

 

There has been some mention in recent posts of learning to operate/fly a Helicopter that is on fixed floats.

 

Many helicopter pilots/CFIs do not know that 8083-23 exists! Chap. 9, pages 9-1 to 9-6.

 

Has anyone operated Helicopters on fixed floats or amphibious landing gear? Were you trained by an experienced CFI that was trained as a pilot to operate on fixed floats. Was there a Curriculum syllabus and lesson plans?

 

I operated B47s & H-12s in both fresh water and marine environments in the 1980s before there was a training handbook. I had to figure it out for myself.

 

Think about the operations before reading the handbook and see if you can figure it out.

 

I will let the thread develop, if it does, and then chime back in with some learning experiences for everyone to benefit from.

 

Be Safe,

 

Mike

 

PS, winter is coming. There is some great info on pages 9-6 to 9-8 for ops on snow, ice, wet, slippery conditions (wet dolly) for consideration that applies with or without skis!!!!!! Of course this addressed at every flight school, right?

[C of G]

Float Equipped Operations Handbook Edited October 7, 2011 by C of G

[Gomer Pylot]

I just got in and flew the checkride. The company I worked for had a 206B on floats for practicing autorotations to the water, and it was the luck of the draw whether you flew it for checkrides. We did some initial training in it, and in fact they used it for new-hire evaluations when I interviewed. Sort of limiting, since you can't do autos to the ground in one, only to water. The checkpilots were experienced, but I don't recall a syllabus, we just flew, and they talked us through operations on the water. There really isn't much difference in flying, but on the water you have to be careful, because there is no friction, and torque affects everything, all the time. You have to fly it all the time on the water, even at idle, because torque will spin it around, and translating tendency will move it to the side. I never tried to start one on the water, but I can imagine that it would be rather sporty, trying to keep one eye on the TOT and the other on the movement of the aircraft. I'm not sure I would even want to try that. Actually, I'm sure I wouldn't.

[r22butters]

Has anyone operated Helicopters on fixed floats or amphibious landing gear? Were you trained by an experienced CFI that was trained as a pilot to operate on fixed floats. Was there a Curriculum syllabus and lesson plans?

 

I have about 20hrs in an R22 Mariner.

 

I didn't recieve any "float specific" training, and we weren't allowed to do any autos (or even normal) practice landings on the water (even though I really, really wanted to ).

 

I did at least read that particular section of the POH, for the slight differences.

 

I also have a number of hours in an R44 Clipper with pop-out floats. Unfortunately, no formal training there either,...just read the POH.

[Mikemv]

Two days and not much response so I will pose a few questions to stimulate some thoughts.

 

For fixed or amphibious operations (not Pop Out floats) in the Everglades or Biscayne Bay. I listed this because so many of you enjoyed the "Pop Up Mission" planning portion of the "C&E Seminars" to take things to real life experiences(Red Tag Mission). I was operating B-47 (fixed) or H-12E (amphib) but use any airframe you are training in or familiar with! ID your airframe with your response so everyone will understand.

 

What should you consider prior to shutting down on the water?

 

What should you consider as you discharge pax on the water and they will be wading?

 

What extras would your pax briefing include?

 

How do you prevent turning on start up/rotor engagement?

 

At what MR RPM does the Tail rotor become effective?

 

What would you consider when doing touchdown autos to the water. Touchdowns on land?

 

How would you think the floats effect the helo with a tail rotor failure?

 

How would you determine if you need to add or remove air in the float system?

 

At the end of a mission/day, what would you do to the helicopter?

 

How would you handle returning to base with one float semi/or deflated?

 

What is the small triangular plate on the stingers of some helos for? (like on B206) Hint: it is not for keeping the TR out of the water!

 

So, is it necessary to fly XXX hours to know how to operate on floats or does some quality ground school mean more?

 

I respect that you all can fly a helicopter. Operating one safely comes from a combination of training and experience.

 

Be Safe,

 

Mike

Edited October 10, 2011 by Mikemv

[r22butters]

I'm affraid to say, with my limited experience in the R22 Mariner, I don't know many of these answers.

 

In an auto to the water I know you have to keep the nose up slightly when you contact, to prevent the floats from dipping in and dragging you over with them.

 

I know there is an adverse-roll characteristic in an auto if you are out-of-trim.

 

I believe that little triangle is to improve longitudinal stability (possibly to help keep the nose from tucking under (as it wants to do at around 75kts))

 

As for returning partially deflated? Its actually funny, since every morning my CFI would have to "manually" inflate a few tubes.

 

Some actual float-specific training would have been nice.

Edited October 10, 2011 by r22butters

[DUSTIN_BOATPIX]

I am not sure if it apply's, but I was told from Cove Helicopters during our (100) hour inspection, that the R22 Mariner couldnt be landed in the water due to the weight of the ship and that the water would come up to the doors and the carb would be in the water. That they were for recovering purposes only; if an accident did occur.

 

-Dustin

[Mikemv]

Dustin, you are kidding right?

 

After flying in the aircraft for 100 hours you think the water would be over the top of the floats and into the doors??????????

How heavy would the aircraft have to be to totally submerge the floats?

 

What kind of training if any did you receive? Is this what your Boat Pix CFI taught you? I know they did not teach you this!

 

You must be joking with your comments.

 

From the Robinson brochure:

 

THE MARINER 2

The Mariner 2 has extra reserve power to assure good performance even under difficult conditions. Equipped with utility floats, the Mariner 11 allows extended flights over water, landings on remote lakes, and safe transit when flying over busy harbors. The Mariner 11 sits low on the water for added stability on rough seas. The complete float installation adds approximately 37 pounds to the R22 empty weight with only a small reduction in cruise speed and Vne.

 

The Mariner 2 includes utility floats, corrosion-proofing throughout, custom ground handling wheels, and gauge/nozzle to check float pressure.

 

Maybe you are just stirring the pot again but this reads as a negative for BoatPix training. i know this is not what Tom's people are putting out. We know each other too well to believe this.

 

Mike

[DUSTIN_BOATPIX]

Just what the mechanic was saying at Cove Helicopters in PA, I have read the material and understand, and company policy is not to ever put the heli in water and I never landing in water except with fixed wing. Not trying to stir the pot....think I learn my lesson. He might of been joking but also pointed out the location of the carb as well and said it could be submerged, guess it could also be dependent of the weight of the pilots.

 

-Dustin

Edited October 10, 2011 by DUSTIN_BOATPIX

[Mikemv]

Dustin,

 

respectfully I tell you that for the Certification of the float system, either it must support the helicopter at Maximum Gross Weight or have an operating weight limitation in the POH Limitations Section or float Supplement.

 

What some mechanic told you was not good information but most of trust what maintenance people tell us.

 

This should add to the learning experience of this thread.

 

fly safe,

 

Mike

Edited October 10, 2011 by Mikemv

[DUSTIN_BOATPIX]

@Mike, thanks for info!

 

-Dustin

[r22butters]

The Mariner 2 has extra reserve power to assure good performance even under difficult conditions.

 

The CFI with whom I flew the Mariner, said that (with the floats attached) I could pull more manifold pressure than the chart allotted for that day (which we needed to hover).

 

Does that sound right, or was he just blowing smoke up my ass because we were too heavy? I could not find it anywhere in the POH.

 

Also, where are fixed float helicopters generally used? Other than Boatpix, I've never seen any?

[Mikemv]

Butters, now you are kidding around right?

 

Does the CFI or POH set limitations for the aircraft? Having said that, did you look in the float supplement part of the POH?

 

Most helos are transmission limited as far as input power at sea level.

 

Simply stated, helos on floats are used where water ops are a common operation/requirement. Alaska, along the coast of Canada, Florida swamps and marine environments, etc. worldwide. Many of these are remote areas and not visible to us daily.

 

Mike

[r22butters]

Butters, now you are kidding around right?

 

I wish I was!

 

I did look in the back of the POH, but I also thought, "He's the CFI, they always seem to know things I don't".

[Mikemv]

As promised, I will answer some of the question to stimulate your thoughts for safe float operations.

 

 

For fixed or amphibious operations (not Pop Out floats) in the Everglades or Biscayne Bay. I listed this because so many of you enjoyed the "Pop Up Mission" planning portion of the "C&E Seminars" to take things to real life experiences(Red Tag Mission). I was operating B-47 (fixed) or H-12E (amphib) but use any airframe you are training in or familiar with! ID your airframe with your response so everyone will understand.

 

What should you consider prior to shutting down on the water?

Where will the wind and current take the helo and at what speed?

Can I use the wind and current against each other to maintain or semi-maintain position?

Can I fix my position with surface friction?

 

What should you consider as you discharge pax on the water and they will be wading?

Do you have a visual & signal means of communication established?

Are they on the upwind side of the aircraft so as to not get drifted over?

What control input/rotor tilt will be necessary and will they be clear?

 

What extras would your pax briefing include?

Pre-flight briefing should include pax objectives both in and out of the helo.

Establish hand signals and mandatory times/points for visual contact.

Address drop off and pick up.

 

How do you prevent turning on start up/rotor engagement?

In the Everglades operations, placing the float on a tuft of grass or weeds to provide friction would keep the helo from turning.

If you can position against a structure you can stop turning.

 

At what MR RPM does the Tail rotor become effective?

This will vary with airframes. Applying full pedal in the opposite direction you can note when it becomes effective.

I always noted at what RPM I could turn in the opposite direction!

 

What would you consider when doing touchdown autos to the water. Touchdowns on land?

Getting the aircraft as slow as possible for touch down will minimize the plowing effect of the floats and limit your tendency to apply aft cyclic as the nose rotates forward and get MR to tail boom contact.

On land, the goal would be to touchdown at zero froward speed. If not, a slightly nose high attitude and avoid pulling back on the cyclic. Watch the tip path plane out front and avoid ground contact with just enough aft cyclic. Do the best you can and walk away!

 

How would you think the floats effect the helo with a tail rotor failure?

A pilot actually had a TR failure over downtown Miami. He told me that the floats slowed the rotation of the aircraft greatly.

How would you determine if you need to add or remove air in the float system?

Some aircraft provide a gage as part of the float kit, ref: RFM

Finger pressure from experience and squat view will also give you SA.

Remember temp. and altitude will also have effects.

At the end of a mission/day, what would you do to the helicopter?

Depending where you operated: rinse salt water residue out of the skid tubes if amphib.

Hose down the helo with fresh water to remove salt spray.

Post flight the floats for damage.

Plan for deflation due to cooling.

 

How would you handle returning to base with one float semi/or deflated?

Call ahead for maintenance assistance.

Land deflated float bag on a raised structure (maybe a dolly) or set up structure.

Consider mast bumping or MR contact with surface.

 

What is the small triangular plate on the stingers of some helos for? (like on B206) Hint: it is not for keeping the TR out of the water!

I, as many, thought this was to keep the TR out of the water but it is actually an airfoil to reduce tucking and nose low attitude that may be unrecoverable without the airfoil in place. Pre-flight anyone?

So, is it necessary to fly XXX hours to know how to operate on floats or does some quality ground school mean more?

XXX hours flying around taking pics may give you some experience in how the aircraft flies with floats but ground school from an experienced pilot in operating techniques will mean more to safe operations.

 

As some of you know from C&E discussions, I had to figure most of this stuff out for myself and return safely. This was certainly not the best or safest way and there was no 8083-23 for me at that time.

 

Take away all you can from us old farts that are willing to mentor from experience.

 

I respect that you all can fly a helicopter. Operating one safely comes from a combination of training and experience.

 

Be Safe,

 

Mike

[rotormandan]

and company policy is not to ever put the heli in water and I never landing in water except with fixed wing.

 

Not attacking you here just trying to make sense of this. Did you ever do any landings in water or do any EPs to the water during training? How can a company who's flying over water with floats for the majority of their operations not provide any training to actually land in the water? I'm hoping I understand you wrong because it doesn't make any sense

[DUSTIN_BOATPIX]

^^^above^^^ I have had zero training as to landing in the water, my understanding is that the company uses the floats for emergency's, so that the ship is able to be recovered. I would like to further my education and learn any and all aspects of flying including water landings. I have been looking at photos of the Gambi G2 and it's shows it landing and taking off, this I would love to do one day. Were would you recommend getting training for water landings and what type of ship? Thanks.

 

Fly Safe,

 

Dustin

[Trans Lift]

How can a company who's flying over water with floats for the majority of their operations not provide any training to actually land in the water?

 

They don't land in the water with floats, they do it without them....did you not see the accident they had in Florida? No floats on the machine that was out over the water taking pictures. What a joke of a company!

Edited October 14, 2011 by Trans Lift

[Spike]

My initial fixed float learning experience was basically a check-ride for a 500 gig. After that, it was OTJ. Being the floats were affixed to the top of the skid tubes, the actual flying had little to no difference to non-float equipped machines. Each and all of the maneuvers performed during the ride were to terra-firma. No water landings as this would place the machine under unnecessary risk.

 

As far as I’m concerned, floats are for keeping the machine afloat after an emergency in order to have the ability to get out and not necessarily meant to save the machine. Shoot, the ongoing joke was if you ended up in the water and the helicopter managed to stay upright, wait until rescue was imminent then knife the floats and let her sink to collect the insurance for a newer machine. Of course this is insurance fraud and highly illegal, but it’s always been the old wives tail with extended overwater operators.

 

The only real advice I was given was to watch the airspeed as the aerodynamic shape of the floats would produce lift at higher airspeeds. Therefore, at high airspeeds the helicopter would tendency to balloon without control input. Corrective action was to simply slow down.

 

 

Other than that, it was no biggie learning to fly with floats. Having said that, I believe any competent pilot can grasp the skill pretty much immediately. Conversely, if any organization requires a pilot to have any amount of float flight time to qualify for a job is completely bogus. Frankly, there is no regulation requiring floats be installed in the first place. Therefore, the installation in itself is simply a means to separate students/customers/applicants from their cash. That is, if I charge extra for my float equipped aircraft, or charge students to fly my float equipped aircraft, or require a fee to fly my float equipped aircraft, then all my aircraft will be float equipped… Duh… Seen it, exposed it and corrected it when it crossed my path.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Spike

[Mikemv]

Spike, my post was meant to be educational from the experience of hundreds of landings on the water both fresh and salt. Some helos still work on floats in Everglades National Park, Big Cypress Swamp/Preserve, Biscayne Bay National Monument. All of these are in South Florida.

 

I have also operated a B206 on floats in Alaska in conjunction with some float plane operations.

 

Flying a helo is flying a helo and with equipment specific training, operating on floats is easily accomplished. It was very interesting figuring it all out for myself back in the early 1980's. I just had to operate a boat with a rotor system!

 

You are correct that most floats are used for emergency set downs when operating over water frequently. Some government contracts dictate fixed floats for water operations. 135 qualified PICs are flying these.

 

Mike

[Spike]

Spike,

 

Sorry to diverge from topic. However, while there are a few operators, as you mentioned, in this day and age who actually operate on the water with fixed floats, the reality is; these operators are few and far inbetween. Mostly, we’re talking about a novelty and/or specialty rather than a normal operating practice. Today, pop-outs are the norm while fixed floats are going the way of the dinosaur. And, while I respectfully agree you are the one who presented this topic, it’s hopefully clearly understood where it was originally generated from….

 

In this day and age, the biggest fear an overwater pilot will face, is when he tests the pop-out circuit during the preflight… Gulp…..

[Mikemv]

Spike,

 

I totally agree with you in the above post.

 

I find your posts informative and addressing pertinent issues with experience and sincerity.

 

I admit that I have more time in helicopters carrying pop out floats than fixed floats by a large margin and did generate the thread after reading others by D-BP. I did PM him and offer mentoring.

 

I hope everyone that read my response to the initial questions thinks about operating on wet, slick and slippery surfaces and the effects of torque and anti-torque to address unwanted surface rotation.

 

Also, if anyone has an actual event to land with floats popped to the water, think about touch down and cyclic usage to not chop a tail boom or get a MR strike! Flying with Pop Outs installed, the PIC should be aware of limitations and operating techniques from the RFM Supplement.

 

Best Wishes to all,

 

Mike