SPD1390 Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 long time reader first time poster, this is a good source of info. now on to the question, the topic of money comes up more in this forum than in a bad divorce court session. so heres what i have for all of you: I have been flying with sky helicopters in garland (excellent training, staff, etc!) i have a decent career day (night shift) job where im off 3 to 4 days a week to fly and go to ground school, i have no kids, no wife and minimal monthly expenses and i even get a little help paying for some training (about 800 a month). i fully understand the pitfalls of this industry when it comes to starting out etc.... but im addicted and hooked to the point where i cant wait to either fly more or have some sort of job in the industry so im not going to give up on this in any form or fashion. IS IT WORTH TAKING OUT A SMAL LOAN TO BOOST FLYING/INSTRUCTION TIME? or just keep paying as i go into my account, just interested in some opinions. thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXFirefly Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 I also did my training at Sky and worked full time flying 3-4 days a week. Great school, great staff and completely above board (not like some schools that are just out to get your money). I think the real question is, can you afford to keep flying on your current salary to the completion of your rating? If you don't fly often enough, you tend to lose ground (especially in the beginning). If you start to lose ground, then you end up wasting money going over the same maneuvers repetitively. That's not very cost efficient. If you are going to run out of money flying at that rate, then I would consider a loan. However, If you can afford out of pocket flight training 3-4 days a week, then you don't need a loan. That is plenty of time per week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 If you have to borrow it, then you can't afford it. That said, if you are almost at the point of getting your private or commercial, don't stop now, as all the training you have done will be lost...finish your next cert and start working another job on your days off to save for the next level. Don't find yourself in debt 80K and looking for a $15 hr job flying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 (edited) Popo grave shift? If at all possible, don't get a loan. In fact, you should never get an unsecured loan for something you want. Only sign your life away for something you need. With that said, you say you're off 3 to 4 days a week eh? I suggest you get an additional job. If you do, you can get ahead of the game. And, if you're committed like you say you are, then working your butt off shouldn't be an issue. Minimize, downsize and save will be your access. Keep in mind, after the fact, loans can keep you out of this business. Edited November 17, 2012 by Spike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 If Sky Helicopters will give you a job flying one of their ENG R44s after you're done, I say go for it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsta1ker Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Debt free is the way to go. Pay as you go if possible. Save yourself the money. You will get raped on helicopter flight training financing. It's not worth it. Sounds like you have the optimal setup for training and working your way in. Keep on keeping on. Otherwise you will find yourself done with training and still paying for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPD1390 Posted November 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Thanks for input all! I can afford it, i just want to do it more often, I think after hearing about the different levels of pay (way less than i make now) im sitting pretty right now! ill keep doing the pay as i go, maybe a decent but managble credit card swipe every now and then. after reading into it some more on here it sounds like i have a good thing going! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikemv Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 (edited) Edited to start a new thread about "schools just out to get your money" Edited November 18, 2012 by Mikemv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_222 Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 maybe a decent but manageable credit card swipe every now and thenActually, it might be financially beneficial for you to pay every single time with a credit card. Provided that you pay it off completely every month (unless you are on a promotional offer, that maybe allows you to pay the minimum for a year or so, but even then, try to keep your balance as low as possible). The reason is that you can find decent offers on credit cards, that can make your money go a little further... For example Capital One's rewards credit card gives you 1% back, for every transaction you make. On top of that, every year they will give you 50% on the rewards that you have accrued during that year. I am not very confident about my math skills, but according to my calculations that results in a 1.5% discount. So, for every $50,000 you could save $750. Which maybe it's a lot, maybe trivial... it's all about point of perspective. Of course, if you are paying cash, maybe you can negotiate with your flight school, and see if they can make you a better deal (anything above 1.6% would make this a pretty easy decision). Mind you, the whole credit card topic/area is one of a greyish color, so proceed with extreme caution when you walk down that path. It is a trap, but if you are careful and prudent enough, you can make the system work for you, instead of the other way around. Last but not least, make sure you do your research, and don't go make decisions just because somebody on a forum said that this is they way to go. What I said, I said it just to show you an available possibility. Other than that, I am the least qualified person to give any kind of financial advise, trust me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselBoy Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 I also trained at SKY, Ken and Connie operate a top notch school! Whether you pay for training from your savings or take out loans, it all comes out of your pocket eventually. Keep a sufficient amount in savings to live on while you're an instructor. 3 days a week of training is plenty, I would only fly more if you can also keep up with the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lelebebbel Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 (edited) It is hard enough to find your first flying job - having lots of debt will make it a lot harder. With a big loan, you might find yourself forced to stick with your current well paying job after training to make the payments, which will hinder your ability to travel and thus, find a flying job. What if you got offered a part time flying job somewhere else in the country? You might not earn enough right off the start to make loan payments and pay for your rent and food. If you have to keep working a non-flying job after flight training to repay your loan, you lose your currency and drastically reduce your chances to find work. If at all possible, try to finish your training with as little baggage as possible, ready to travel and jump at every (reasonable) job opportunity you can find. Edited November 21, 2012 by lelebebbel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 For example Capital One's rewards credit card gives you 1% back, for every transaction you make. On top of that, every year they will give you 50% on the rewards that you have accrued during that year. I am not very confident about my math skills, but according to my calculations that results in a 1.5% discount. So, for every $50,000 you could save $750. Which maybe it's a lot, maybe trivial... it's all about point of perspective. Save 750 for the year, and pay how much in interest? Credit card debt is a fools errand, especially for a burgeoning pilot. The path is hard enough. Don't complicate it with unnecessary debt. Especially not from Capital One. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_222 Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 Save 750 for the year, and pay how much in interest? Credit card debt is a fools errand, especially for a burgeoning pilot. The path is hard enough. Don't complicate it with unnecessary debt. Especially not from Capital One. If you pay the whole due amount, then the amount paid in interest would be 0. If you fly for $10,000 worth of flight time during a month, you can either pay it directly to your school, or put it on a credit card, pay the same amount of money when your credit card bill comes, but this way you will get $150 back... Paying off completely the bill is a necessary condition, otherwise it is just stupid to try to gain 1.5%, while borrowing with an average of >15%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 If you pay the whole due amount, then the amount paid in interest would be 0. Have you thought this through? If you fly for $10,000 worth of flight time during a month, you can either pay it directly to your school, or put it on a credit card, pay the same amount of money when your credit card bill comes, but this way you will get $150 back... Paying off completely the bill is a necessary condition, otherwise it is just stupid to try to gain 1.5%, while borrowing with an average of >15%. Think about that carefully. The original poster wants to fly more; paying the full amount isn't possible: the original poster is considering a loan because that enables him to fly more. Presently he flies what his budget allows. If the original poster obtains a loan or puts the cost on his credit card, your assumption is that the original poster doesn't need the loan and can afford to pay the money back immediately anyway. If the original poster can't afford to pay the full amount back within the month, the original poster pays interest, which accrues and compounds as it's attached to the original loan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsta1ker Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 I agree with Avbug. Credit cards advertise in such a way as to make you believe that you are earning money and rewards. This is a trick to get you to borrow money from them. Credit card companies, banks, and other financial institutions are there to make money off of their customers. How can they do that without taking your money from you? The rewards and cash back incentives they give do not outweigh the money they make off the interest they charge you. Stay the hell away from credit cards! I cut mine up years ago (except for one I keep a zero balance on just for emergencies) and have never looked back. As I said before, debt free is the way to go. If you can afford to train at all, even one or two days a week, you are doing good! Don't dig a hole you don't need to dig! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 Quite right. I use credit cards strictly for buying handguns that the wife doesn't know about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_222 Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 Have you thought this through? yes, Sir! If you put $500 on the credit card, about twenty days later you will get a bill saying you owe the credit card company $500, due on a specific day. If, by that due date, you put $500 in your credit card account, then the interest you need to pay is 0. If now, you only pay the minimum, lets say $25, and you let an outstanding balance of $475, then (unless you are within a promotional type of deal, "no interest for 12 months" or so) on the next billing cycle you will be owing the company more than $475... (probably something upwards of 475+15%, or $546) Think about that carefully. The original poster wants to fly more; paying the full amount isn't possible: the original poster is considering a loan because that enables him to fly more. Presently he flies what his budget allows. If the original poster obtains a loan or puts the cost on his credit card, your assumption is that the original poster doesn't need the loan and can afford to pay the money back immediately anyway. If the original poster can't afford to pay the full amount back within the month, the original poster pays interest, which accrues and compounds as it's attached to the original loan. You are making an assumption that I made an assumption... Which I did not. I did not assume anything. I merely commented on OP's statement "manageable credit card swipe every now and then." I just shared that it might be financially beneficial for somebody to consistently use a credit card, instead of paying through a debit card, or through a check, or cash. Credit cards are not for borrowing money; that's is a loan's purpose of existence. What I said applies only if somebody has the money already (or has a steady and sufficient income) and he is only putting on his credit card whatever amount he will be able to pay off at the end of each billing cycle. And just to clarify, I mentioned Capital One just as an example. There is a plethora of credit card companies out there, running similar offers. Bank of America has one, I know Chase has one, too. Anybody interested should do his/her due diligence, and see if anything suits his/her needs. Last but not least, I said in my first post that somebody should be very careful when dealing with credit cards. I actually used the word "trap," didn't I? They use a very good bait to lure you in, that's for sure. But that doesn't mean that you cannot take advantage of it, if you are careful enough... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsta1ker Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 All it takes is one misstep and you fall into that trap. Been there, done that. Never again. I wouldn't recommend anyone take out a loan or use a credit card if they have the option to pay cash. Some banks offer rewards for using their debit card. That is a much safer approach to me. You are leading a horse to croc infested waters! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 yes, Sir! If you put $500 on the credit card, about twenty days later you will get a bill saying you owe the credit card company $500, due on a specific day. If, by that due date, you put $500 in your credit card account, then the interest you need to pay is 0. If now, you only pay the minimum, lets say $25, and you let an outstanding balance of $475, then (unless you are within a promotional type of deal, "no interest for 12 months" or so) on the next billing cycle you will be owing the company more than $475... (probably something upwards of 475+15%, or $546) Well, brightspark, if the original poster could pay it off right away, he wouldn't need the card or the loan in the first place, would he? Think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeroscout Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 What can we do to brighten avbug's day ?For the record I don't recommend credit cards or debt. I do have a credit card, but use it like a debit card. I avoid the interest, and capitalize on any rewards. It takes a lot of discipline to use your credit card in such a manner so it's not for everyone. By the way, credit card companies hate customers like me. They call such customers "deadbeats" That's some fine use of Orwellian language if you ask me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_222 Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 Well, brightspark, if the original poster could pay it off right away, he wouldn't need the card or the loan in the first place, would he? Think. Well, let's see... The topic of this post is whether the OP should get a loan, or not. Did I say anything on that regard? No... so you can definitely accuse me of being off topic. Guilty as charged. This question has been answered by many people on this forum, and we are pretty clear on what the right thing to do is: Don't go in debt for your training, with few exceptions. As I said in my previous post though, the only thing I commented on is that it COULD BE beneficial for him to pay through a credit card, instead of using cash, as long as he pays off his bill every month. Just that. I didn't tell him, you, nor anybody else that he should go into credit card debt to pay for his training, because that would be stupid (not of me, but of anybody following an advice like that). (and it wouldn't take you very far anyway, since credit card limits are usually 3 to 5 Gs) I also told him that if he chooses to go that way, he has to be very careful, because it is a trap, and it is quite easy to fall in it, and then be in trouble. The OP said that he gets about $800 per month of "a little help," and I am ASSUMING that maybe he is able to put $800 more every month out of his own pocket towards his training. So he can probably fly for around $1,600 worth of training time every month. If he pays cash/debit, then that's it. If he puts it through a credit card, he could get $24 back, as cash back rewards. Does it worth it for $24 to go through the hassle, and the danger of having a credit card? That's a question for the OP, or anybody in a similar position, to answer. I just told him it is out there... I think I even told him, to make things a little easier, if his flight school gives him a bigger than 1.6% discount (for example in this case for every $1,600 the OP spends in training, he will owe only $1,575) then that's the way to go. Simple stuff, shouldn't take that much explaining... Whatevs... Today, being Black Friday, Discover is having an offer of 2% cashback rewards. I am scheduled to fly at my school for at least 1.3, later today. Everybody knows what I am going to use for that flight, right? (1.3 * $250 = $325 * .02 = $6.5). Hey... lunch is for "free" today... Brightspark? Me? And I was worried it would be difficult to show through an internet forum... It seems that I cannot hide even here anymore... Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helipilotm Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 Avbug is a realist! No problem with that! To the poster who was talking about using a credit card... Are you kidding me, spend $50,000 to save a whopping $750!!! That is what's wrong with this country! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeroscout Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 Avbug is a realist! No problem with that! To the poster who was talking about using a credit card... Are you kidding me, spend $50,000 to save a whopping $750!!! That is what's wrong with this country! As I read it, he was not saying what you attribute to him at all. As I read it his point was, if you are going to spend $50,000 in cash, check, credit card, debit card, or whatever method of payment it boils down to which option will benefit you the most financially when the transaction is complete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_222 Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 To the poster who was talking about using a credit card... Are you kidding me, spend $50,000 to save a whopping $750!!! That is what's wrong with this country! that would be me... So, one shows somebody, who is contemplating whether he should get a loan or not, how his flight training could cost him $49,250 instead of $50,000 (just by changing the payment method he is using), and all of a sudden this is what's wrong with this country.... meh, whatevs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 So, one shows somebody, who is contemplating whether he should get a loan or not, how his flight training could cost him $49,250 instead of $50,000 (just by changing the payment method he is using), and all of a sudden this is what's wrong with this country.... You didn't show him that. Save 750 dollars and pay out exactly what, in fees and interest? A credit card is not a loan. It's a fools errand. If he can't afford the additional flying now, and is seeking financing, a credit card isn't the way to do it. If he original poster could immediately pay the money back to the card before interest accrued, then he might save something, but if he could do that, why would he need to take a "loan" from the card in the first place. He could simply pay outright. If he needs additional funding to accelerate his flying, then he doesn't have the funding presently, and the only way to immediately pay back is to actually have the funding presently. Because a loan is required, presumption that immediate payoff isn't possible is reasonable, and therefore we have an expectation of interest (and applicable fees). Interest is going to exceed that one point five percent that he might hope to get back, so at best your'e not really talking about a reduction in cost, but instead you're talking about a slightly lesser amount on which interest will accrue. In your example, rather than interest accruing on 50,000, it's now accruing on 49,250. Big deal. Looking at the bigger picture, he's paying back interest, and dropping the total amount by 750 doesn't put a very big dent in that interest, because it's assessed over the whole amount, not just that seven fifty. The interest will be considerably greater than 1.5%. Dangle the carrot of saving 1.5%, but cost him a whole lot more as a result. Most people who need a fifty thousand dollar loan aren't repaying it the same month, or even the same year. It's paid out over time, which is the purpose of having the loan. One doesn't have the necessary funds, and so seeks the loan, and then pays it back a bit at a time. Fifty grand isn't like using your credit card to pay the power bill, so you can go home and write a check back to the credit card company. If the original poster had the money to do as some have unwisely suggested and pay back the credit card before interest accrued, would he really need to use it in the first place? Of course not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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