How much to save to begin training?

[rubidug]

Sooo...

I did my discovery flight with a well-known local flight school. I know the total training (if you were to do it in ~40 hrs) is going to cost about $12-14K. I was hoping to get $ back from taxes, but thats another story...

 

So, I received less than the $14K that I was hoping for.

 

My question is this:

 

Should I wait to save ALL or MOST of the $ before starting?

This school does not require all of the $ up front, I can pay as I go.

So, my second question (if the first doesnt answer it), is...

 

How much $ should I have saved to begin training? I was told that I should do most of my flying with little time in between. (2x a week was acceptable) So, could I start with, say, $3K? Would that get me flying, and I could at the same time keep saving so that my training would continue? I am sure that I would run out of cash before finishing.

 

I have heard of pilots taking several years to complete their PPL. So, how much time away is too much time away? I was PM'd the other day by a gentlemen that said it took 4 years for him to complete his PPL. I know I can retain the info, because I am also flying a lot of fixed wing time with a friend (not instruction, just fun). But, I do not know if I can retain the muscle memory associated with flying helis?

 

Thanks in advance for the info!

[terminal_velo]

Alot of "the info" is different between helo and fixed wing. Airspeeds, altitude restriction, weather minimums, emergency procedures, pattern procedure...

 

I'd say two times per week as an absolute minimum. Three times per week is better, especially once you consider that you might lose a flight or two per week for weather.

 

How much you should save before you get started depends entirely on how fast you can save the rest. The math will be different if you're able to save $100 a week than it will be if you're able to save $1000 per week.

 

So, do the math. Figure out what your weekly deficit is. That weekly deficit is what you have to save money for. If you're able to save $800 per week, and you're spending $1000 per week flying, you have a $200 deficit. Estimate how long it will take you to finish, let's say 18 weeks, that's 18 x $200 = $4,000 that you'll need to save before you start.

 

Now, take that $4,000 and add non-flight costs such as checkrides, ground school material, and your medical. A grand might cover that, so you have $5,000.

 

That is the bare minimum that you should have with those conditions, your conditions will be different. If you're smart, you'll save more than the number you come up with, just to make sure you don't have to stop flying due to running short.

[DieselBoy]

Are you only wanting your PPL? No commercial, IFR, CFI...

 

The only people I have personally seen finish a PPL in 40 hours were already fixed wing rated. The average tends to be 55 - 70 for someone with no experience. 2 - 3 flights and 1 day of ground a week would take about 6 months to complete. If you take a year or longer to finish then you will probably be buying extra flight time just to remain proficient. It just depends on how much you can save in that time period.

 

As stated above, there can be a lot of extra expenses too, books, flight bag, headset, E6B, kneeboard, white-out, prepware, Tylenol, written test, etc

 

Keep flying with your friend and learn what you can in the mean time.

Edited March 6, 2013 by DieselBoy

[UgleeBarnacle]

I myself am going for my PPL this summer, which means I need to knock it out in a little under 3 months. I plan to be there just about every day, and while this is a time crunch, the general trend DOES seem to be that the closer you can keep your lessons together, the more your money is stretching. Granted, it IS different from person to person!

[rubidug]

Thanks for the reply's folks~

 

DB- my plan for now is just to get the PPL for personal flying. If I had the cash I would continue. I am a teacher of 13 years, and have a family with 3 girls. Point is, I'm not saving huge amounts of cash any time fast, hence the tax $.

 

I understand the math, thanks for all the great advice TV! So, if 2x per week is minimum, how are these pilots doing it in 4 years? I would imagine I would spend more money over the time period, and more hours making up the lack of consistency.

 

Maybe a better question/situation explanation would have been this:

I don't have $14K now. I don't think I will ever be able to save it, unless I was retiring, kids out of the house and out of school, or something of value sells. Since the dems think my money is theirs, I cannot count on taxes anymore either. So...

 

Maybe someone else has an experience like this they can share? I know that getting the PPL over years CAN be done. I am not in a hurry, and again..its really about the cash. Is there an amount of cash/lessons that should be done right away, hence the need for a certain amount of cash to get started? And then the rest can be accomplished as the cash is saved/found/planted a seed and grown a cash tree. Or, are these folks starting lessons, then going through a period of not flying, and then starting again to completion?

 

As a side note..

When I didnt get the tax $, I was super bummed. I was planning on this being the last chance to use that tax $, because they cut my hours by 20 percent next school year. When I heard from a fellow VR member that said it took him 4 years, the wind was back in my sails. I just dont know where to begin....

[UH60L-IP]

Rubidug,

 

If your current plan is to simply get your rating for personal flying, i.e. Private Pilot and nothing more, then I don't see an issue with stretching out your lessons in order to keep from going into debt. What is likely going to happen, though, is that you will likely take longer than the often promoted ~40 hours to obtain your PPL. If you are doing this more for the personal satisfaction of being in the air though, that shouldn't matter. You will either be paying for the extended hours flying while working towards your rating or you will be paying for those same hours to continue to fly for pleasure after you get your rating.

 

With that in mind, why not start with the 3k you suggested? That will get you 10 hours or so and have you flying for a little over a month (at 2 times per week). If you have to slow down, fine, considering your goal is not a fast pace to Commercial/CFI.

 

When I was still teaching as a civilian, the push was always to get the student to fly as much as possible. This was 50% so that the student would retain the information and not backslide, and 50% because the CFI wanted the regular student to fly with while they built their own hours.

 

If you cannot afford to continually train 2+ times per week, simply understand that it will likely take you more than that ~40 hours to get your rating - perhaps a good deal more. Ideally, once you are comfortable in the aircraft, you should be flying no less than once per week just to keep up. But even if you go longer between flights, this is still mainly a pleasure and personal goal thing, right?

 

If you wait until you have all the money for your PPL, you will likely never get started. Nonetheless, if the goal is simply a personal one, I would not recommend taking on any loans to complete your training. That's just me though. Your comfort level may be different.

[ralpez]

Reading through this thread it would seem that based on your current financial situation Helicopter flying probably isn't a good hobby to start. I understand your excitement, but maybe you should stay in the fixed wing cockpit with your friend for now and re-attack this down the line.

[Spike]

Discovery flights, or demo flights as we used to call them, usually accomplish what their supposed to do and that is, put the hook in you. From your explanation, I’d say, you got hooked……

 

The question is; what is your ultimate goal? If you are simply seeking Private Certification, why is that? Again, by your post, it would appear you can’t afford flying to begin with so why spend thousands of dollars on flying? Plus, I know many folks who gained their Private only to never touch the controls once they gained certification. Simply put, learning to fly helicopters is mostly for the career oriented individual or the rich and/or famous… Not for the fun of it…..

 

If a helicopter career is your goal then I’d suggest investing the cash while you save. Once you have the full boat (80K-ish), then jump in and fly as much as you want. In today’s marketplace, full emersion along with momentum is optimum. However, it is possible to chip away at it over the long-term but this is not optimum and usually the goal ends up in nowheresville……

 

Saturate, incubate, illuminate = common sense.

[terminal_velo]

I don't have $14K now. I don't think I will ever be able to save it, unless I was retiring, kids out of the house and out of school, or something of value sells.

 

That, right here, is everything you need to know.

 

If you don't have the means to save up the money, than how could you possibly have the means to spend it?

 

They're one in the same. If you can come up with the money to finish the rating over several years, than you also would have the ability to have saved it over several years. You either have both, or neither.

 

Ultimately, there is not an aviation solution to your problem. This is a strictly financial dilemma, and has a financial answer. Spend less, make more, or both.

[BH206L3]

Well it seems to me that all you want to do is fly for personal reasons, Ie recreational flying, I think for you going into helicopters would not be the best option for you. Based on what you said and as I understand what you are saying. I fly both airplanes and helicopter commercially. I would suggest that you look into fixed wing, either sport pilot or private pilot fixed wing single engine. Its less expensive and to rent or buy an airplane would be a lot less. I can't think of a more fun way to see California, that from a J-3 cub with the door open. Yes helicopters are fun to fly and they are very addictive but they just cost to much money for most to fly for recreation reasons. Learning how to fly is not really all that hard, and flying twice a week is fine.

[pilot#476398]

I can't think of a more fun way to see California, that from a J-3 cub with the door open.

 

From an R44 with the door off!

[Airhead]

You can also build time and experience in fixed wing and apply it towards a helicopter cert. You need 10 hours solo in a heli and maybe another 20 to get endorsed to fly solo and to satisfy a few more items. If you are looking at a 60 hour total training time, which is more realistic in your situation, then the rest can be done fixed wing. This will be cheaper and you may end up with a better chance of sticking with it in the long term. Maybe just settle for a fixed wing license since you can do more with it.

 

Even if you have your license, flying a helicopter it is still really expensive and they are slow. You can go places in a plane, helicopters go places where planes can't.

[rubidug]

Again, thanks for all of the input!

 

I guess at this point, flying is flying! I am looking at attacking this from the more casual side it seems. Im certainly not in a rush to get the PPL, and I am enjoying the flying for what it is. My CFII has over 20K hours, so he's not in any rush and not building time. My money situation changes all of the time. And when I said I would never be able to save the total amount, I meant that I could most likely pay as I go, over time. My wife and I have never been good at maintaining a large amount in our savings.

 

My justification for all of this is hard to explain. Without getting into my whole life's story, I will just say that flying helicopters has always been a dream. And, although its not that practical, I still feel I need to follow that dream. I fly the hell out of my RC's every day, have been using flight sim since I was 14, follow the forums, rags, news, etc. My fixed wing friend dislikes that I want to pursue my heli stuff first, but he does consent that following your dreams is the most important thing.

 

My ultimate goal is to retire, sell the house for a motorcoach, trailer, and 2 place heli and tour the country/continent, etc. My wife is on board with this, as I have seen alot of the country, and she has always wanted to. I have also looked into the kit heli's. I am a fabricator on the side, and would enjoy the challenge of building a heli.

 

I want to get the PPL now for several reasons. First, I know the regs and minimums will change and probably be more expensive and time consuming in the future, I want to get my foot in the door sooner than later. Second, my CFII will retire in the next ten years, and I want HIM to be my instructor. Third, I WILL get my fixed wing. Most likely right after I get my rotor PPL. But, (he, he) for obvious reasons, I would like to be a helicopter pilot with a fixed wing, and not the other way around!

 

My family is interested in flying, and yes, I understand how/why fixed wing is more practical. I can buy a used Cessna 140 for $20K, do the training, and sell it back for damn near the same amount. I could buy a 6 place airplane for around $45K, and fly my family around for fun. We have talked about this, but who knows what the future holds. 3 years ago we were both desert racers competing in the King of the Hammers, but things have settled down a bit since.

 

Anyway, I am already very blessed. I have a great job, wonderful wife, and 3 great kids. This is just something I feel I need to do, and am thankful for all of the suggestions that all of you have offered!

[terminal_velo]

And when I said I would never be able to save the total amount, I meant that I could most likely pay as I go, over time.

 

Understand two things.

 

1. If you have the money to pay as you go, then you have the money to put it in your piggy bank and spend it later. The only stopping that from happening would be lack of desire or discipline to do so.

 

2. You will spend more money doing it over several years instead of saving up and flying consistently, probably significantly more.

 

It's a waste of time to look for a loophole to the above. You won't find one.

 

If you are willing to spend extra money to have instant gratification, go start flying now. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's a poor financial decision. You're lying to yourself and to your wife if you pretend that it isn't.

 

Either way, good luck. I hope it works out for ya.

[Goldy]

 

As a side note..

When I didnt get the tax $, I was super bummed. I was planning on this being the last chance to use that tax $, because they cut my hours by 20 percent next school year. When I heard from a fellow VR member that said it took him 4 years, the wind was back in my sails. I just dont know where to begin....

 

Rubi- It's ok, you can say my name!! I've put it out there several times! Took me years to go from first training flight to first solo and on to Private. Fact is, having that experience, I encourage everyone to save first, fly second. It's ok to grab some flight time, even if it's in a plank and you have to buy breakfast, especially if it gets logged. But serious flight training will cost you 15K to get your helo private, and you should fly 2-3 times a week as several others have mentioned. Being a pilot is very much a hand-eye coordination/muscle memory thing. Those skills are perishable, so you don't want your next lesson to be re-learning your last one!

 

That said, all things are possible, even saving money to learn to fly. We all had to do it, we all got through it one way or another.

 

I'll definitely look you up next time I am out by REI.

 

Goldy

[rubidug]

 

1. If you have the money to pay as you go, then you have the money to put it in your piggy bank and spend it later. The only stopping that from happening would be lack of desire or discipline to do so.

 

2. You will spend more money doing it over several years instead of saving up and flying consistently, probably significantly more.

 

1) You obviously dont have kids! Any money that is saved, is always used for something...ie broken car (last week truck tranny = $3500), braces, science camp, unexpected this and that. Point is, saving is not going to get me the same amount of $ that it would if I just spent it as I go. If I spend $1000 a month on flight training (example), I would not be able to save $1K a month because it would disappear...

 

2) Thats fine. Its about flying, not the total amount of $ spent. Although, if I was paying it off all at once, then I would like to do it the cheapest way possible. For me, its a means to the end.

[rubidug]

Rubi- It's ok, you can say my name!! I've put it out there several times! Took me years to go from first training flight to first solo and on to Private. Fact is, having that experience, I encourage everyone to save first, fly second. It's ok to grab some flight time, even if it's in a plank and you have to buy breakfast, especially if it gets logged. But serious flight training will cost you 15K to get your helo private, and you should fly 2-3 times a week as several others have mentioned. Being a pilot is very much a hand-eye coordination/muscle memory thing. Those skills are perishable, so you don't want your next lesson to be re-learning your last one!

 

Thanks! I don't mention names unless given permission first

 

BTW...

I AM saving! And, I WILL get there someday. Don't throw away your soda cans and water bottles, save them for me!

 

And, I WILL keep flying with my fixed wing friend (did I mention he is 86 and sharp as a tack?)!

It is a lot of fun, and I am learning quite a bit at the same time. Plus, there is no pressure, no maximizing time, etc. Just flying, learning, and fun.

[terminal_velo]

2) Thats fine. Its about flying, not the total amount of $ spent. Although, if I was paying it off all at once, then I would like to do it the cheapest way possible. For me, its a means to the end.

 

Flying is a lot more fun when you aren't concerned with how much a flight is going to cost you. When you show up knowing you have to keep a flight under x.x hours, because you only have $350 to spend that day, it takes away from the enjoyment of it. I've had flights where I had one eye outside and one on the hobbs meter, rushing on the ground to get in the air, distracted by the fare meter running in my head. It's not conducive to learning. It makes it hard to relax, and being relaxed is very important in helicopters.

 

When I stopped, saved up all the money, and started flying again, the amount of fun I had and how well I picked up things improved. I wasn't making any more money than I had been before, it was simply knowing that whatever happened that flight I would be able to pay for it and it wouldn't have an affect on the next time I get to fly.

 

A friend of mine is working on her PP airplane. She was about five flights in, spending $145/hr (plus instruction) in a nice new Cessna 172. She wasn't learning much and was going to quit. I talked her into flying a different airplane. It was a shitty 40-year old Cessna 150 at a school 30 minutes farther, but rents for $75/hr. She wasn't interested initially but I got her to take a discovery flight in it. She switched over and is having a blast. She's about to solo. She told me the same thing I learned myself: financial stress does NOT get left on the ground. She has told me multiple times how much she loves going for her lessons—where she was starting to hate it before—almost entirely because of how much less it was costing her.

 

That being said, If getting to fly now instead of later is worth spending extra money, and making steady progress isn't your major motivation, go ahead and get started. Some people are simply happy to be in the air, nothing wrong with that at all. Just don't be frustrated if later you have 30 hours and you haven't solo'd yet.

 

1) You obviously dont have kids! Any money that is saved, is always used for something...ie broken car (last week truck tranny = $3500), braces, science camp, unexpected this and that. Point is, saving is not going to get me the same amount of $ that it would if I just spent it as I go. If I spend $1000 a month on flight training (example), I would not be able to save $1K a month because it would disappear...

 

You obviously don't understand math.

 

Money doesn't "disappear". It gets spent. If your idea of financial planning is hurriedly spending money on things you want, so that you don't have to spend it on what you should, than you have problems that have nothing to do with helicopters. Consider listening to the Dave Ramsey radio show. He's a great financial advisor and his financial philosophies are sound. He sells a book called 'The Total Money Makeover' that I highly recommend you read. Everyone should read it.

 

Either you have extra money in the budget or you don't. If you are unable to save money because you need to use it for more other things, than you don't have it to spend on helicopters. Period. Stop being financially delusional.

[Astro]

Save enough to get to your solo endorsement, at least 20 hrs if you're training in an R-22. That way if it does take years to finish you can at least fly by yourself every now and again and feel like a real pilot. If you ALWAYS have to fly with an instructor you may never get that sense of accomplishent!

[rubidug]

Thanks for all of that great info TV!

I dont think I will have a problem with the flying vs. $ in my head issue, but I'm glad you brought it up. I would prolly be more worried about running out of time so I have to stop flying again!

And, I also like your point on your friend. In my flying, I have been going up with a buddy who has a comanche. I got to flying a Cessna 140 and it was a blast! Things were simpler, slower, better view (high wing), etc. I REALLY enjoyed it. And, more fun for less operating cost.

 

I would imagine that most pilots have had some sort of financial stress, even those using the GI etc. So, I think it is just something that has to be dealt with, like part of your ground school. So, thanks for letting me vent!

 

LOLOL....math, my friend, has very little to do with real life! Yes money gets spent, even when you save it. In fact, you are saving $ to spend it, right? Otherwise, why would you save it in the first place?

Its called priorities, and they happen, expected or not. I saved $3500 for heli training, but truck broke and thats what gets me to work everyday. Truck gets fixed. $3500-$3500=$0. Another chance will come, more $ will be saved. Until then....

[Pilot4him]

Ignoring what you should do, and going strictly from the learning to fly aspect, I'm with Goldy. I started flying in 2001/2008 and didn't get my private until 2011. I then added in my instrument, commercial, Cfi, CFII, asel, and asel ir in about a year. Based on my personal experience, I would recommend to anyone to save first, then knock it all out at once rather than drag it out.

It's like taking two steps forward and one backwards.

I would say try to fly at least three or four times a week if possible.

Even though it'll take all the money at once, it'll save you money in the long run...

Those are my 2 cents, take it or leave it, and best wishes!