Airhead Posted May 4, 2013 Report Share Posted May 4, 2013 I was hoping a tour pilot on here might be willing to enlighten me... I was thinking about a tour I went on several years ago in the Grand Canyon and eventually my mind went towards where to auto. Is there anywhere flat enough to land other than the river? I remember seeing some open areas and we had plenty of altitude but I can't see a whole lot of flat places in the pictures. Also, do you practice engine failures over the canyon? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iChris Posted May 4, 2013 Report Share Posted May 4, 2013 (edited) I was thinking about a tour I went on several years ago in the Grand Canyon and eventually my mind went towards where to auto. Is there anywhere flat enough to land other than the river? I remember seeing some open areas and we had plenty of altitude but I can't see a whole lot of flat places in the pictures. Also, do you practice engine failures over the canyon? Thanks That’s part of the real world ballgame during any helicopter operation; sometimes there isn’t a good place to auto into. Sometime there will be aircraft damage and injuries no matter how good the auto was executed. Sometimes an engine quits at the wrong time over the wrong spot. Moreover, the Canyon doesn’t seem to be a good place to practice engine failures, unless you’re trying to induce a real emergency. When we practice we normally want everything at the right time over the right (excellent) spot. Edited May 4, 2013 by iChris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AS350 pilot Posted May 4, 2013 Report Share Posted May 4, 2013 I flew in the canyon for two years. I never had a problem in there. Like anywhere else with challenging terrain, if you have an engine failure you are going to have to get creative. You definitely will never get to practice auto's in there either. It's not just the Grand Canyon that is challenging as far as terrain, between there and Las Vegas you will fly over 90ish miles of terrain you wouldn't want to auto to. Just like anywhere else, this is just something you have to accept if you fly there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airhead Posted May 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2013 I guess what I was thinking is that there would be a few known areas to be aware of that could be reached from the heli routes since you have a long glide ahead of you that would put somewhat distant spots within reach. I know there are some large terraces down there from when I hiked it but I just wasn't looking at it from this perspective back then. Even if you could find a flat spot it would be rocky as Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mausermolt Posted May 5, 2013 Report Share Posted May 5, 2013 not to 7500 the thread, but do any of you ditch drivers experience a lack of quality in your auto's after not doing any in awhile? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted May 5, 2013 Report Share Posted May 5, 2013 I was hoping a tour pilot on here might be willing to enlighten me... I was thinking about a tour I went on several years ago in the Grand Canyon and eventually my mind went towards where to auto. Is there anywhere flat enough to land other than the river? I remember seeing some open areas and we had plenty of altitude but I can't see a whole lot of flat places in the pictures. Also, do you practice engine failures over the canyon? Thanks Not a Grand Canyon pilot, but a couple things have been said in this thread that need to be remarked upon:First, last and always, plan to survive and have a plan. There are places and times in normal operations from which you will most likely not shoot a 100% successful auto from. Don't stick your head in the sand and pretend it's not so, because doing that means you won't have a plan when IT happens, Sacrifice the helo if you have to stick it in a crack, in the tops of the trees or where ever a survivable landing is possible.Finally, that flat place just big enough to put the skids, or that requires stretching the glide a little will kill you if you're not perfect. The machine's already broke if you're autrotating, it has let you down, you don't owe it a thing- break it some more if you have to, do it by decisive effective action that ensures your survival. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Counterrotate Posted May 5, 2013 Report Share Posted May 5, 2013 A good auto to a bad spot is ALWAYS better than a bad auto to a good spot. . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted May 5, 2013 Report Share Posted May 5, 2013 A good auto to a bad spot is ALWAYS better than a bad auto to a good spot. . What a lame-ass cliche! A bad auto may f*ckup the chopper, but you could still survive if the spot's good, but the most perfect auto won't help much if your spot is covered by jagged rocks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted May 5, 2013 Report Share Posted May 5, 2013 not to 7500 the thread, but do any of you ditch drivers experience a lack of quality in your auto's after not doing any in awhile? I'm sure they still practice them periodically, just not while in the ditch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikemv Posted May 5, 2013 Report Share Posted May 5, 2013 What a lame-ass cliche! A bad auto may f*ckup the chopper, but you could still survive if the spot's good, but the most perfect auto won't help much if your spot is covered by jagged rocks! The fact that the pilot chose to make it a bad auto to reach a good spot is heading toward fatalities not a good touchdown. I have lost pilot friends that turned a good auto into a bad one to make a good spot and killed everyone on board! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselBoy Posted May 5, 2013 Report Share Posted May 5, 2013 Insurance will "replace" the helicopter. The touchdown is only one part of an auto and things could've went south way before that. Unfortunately, there are fatal crashes during practice autos to runways, bad auto to a perfect spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Counterrotate Posted May 5, 2013 Report Share Posted May 5, 2013 What a lame-ass cliche! A bad auto may f*ckup the chopper, but you could still survive if the spot's good, but the most perfect auto won't help much if your spot is covered by jagged rocks!Hopefully you are never unlucky enough to find out how wrong you are. As has already been said, sometimes your options are "bad" and "worse". A good auto will terminate your flight with zero descent and ground speed at the surface. Even if you put it down on some rocks, roll the ship, and wind up pretty banged up, I would still take that over trying to stretch it to a flat spot, running out of RPM and dropping 20 or more feet. That is most likely not survivable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted May 5, 2013 Report Share Posted May 5, 2013 A good auto to a bad spot is ALWAYS better than a bad auto to a good spot. . My unit instructor retired with 45 years, 27,000+hrs and had 9 complete engine failures during his career and used to say the exact same thing. If you screw up the auto itself its pretty much over with. You dont get to choose where its going to happen, so fly the helicopter to the best crash site you can find and make it as pretty as you can given the terrain you have under you. If you are fighting a bad auto on the way down you are just ballast. There are extremely narrow parameters to a successful auto. Even good autos often end up bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airhead Posted May 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2013 Points in the direction I was seeking...but it doesn't sound like a power off landing in this case "it turned out that the ship experienced an electrical failure and the pilot set the ship down at a pre-identified emergency landing site along one of the routes, one of several potential emergency landing sites we’ve shown to our pilots." http://www.autorotate.com/portal/Portals/0/magazines/2003/2003%20-%20issue8/dec03.pdf I understand what you guys are saying about mountain flying and the reality of the situation. I'm just a lowly student but I quickly recognized the "if my engine quits right now I am probably dead" mentality when over the mountains. I am more bothered by the fact that I am ok with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomad110 Posted May 5, 2013 Report Share Posted May 5, 2013 I am not a tour pilot in the grand canyon but I did train in the EC-130 there. I wouldn't say the terrain is not conducive to a survivable auto. I'd rather lose an engine there then over a dense metroplex any day. The only areas that are difficult would be if you are flying down in trenches but that is expected. We never did full downs out in the dirt obviously but if you know the EC-130 you know that the flight mode microswitch gremlins on the collective twist grip have been known to strike at the worst moments. Make every practice auto as if it's going to the ground because one day you might be forced to. Other then that it's one of the most beautiful areas I've ever had the pleasure to fly in. Also make sure you know the altitude and environmental restrictions. They are not clearly marked on VFR sectionals. Also in certain areas the helicopter traffic is insane... Have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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