How Do You Teach Settling With Power?

[eagle5]

I've flown with several CFIs and a few DPEs and every time we do settling with power its always the same way;

 

- Pull into a hover at 2000' (give or take)

- Initiate a vertical descent

- Pull up on the collective when the ROD is high enough to enter VRS

- Push forward to recover...

 

Then they ask the question; When are you most likely to get into this?

 

Since the answer always seems to be; While on an approach, why do we start from a hover? I may prefere slow approaches, but I almost never come down completely vertical from higher than 25' or so! So why do we teach it this way? It seems a little backwards to me?

 

Wouldn't it be more useful to say perhaps?;

 

- Initiate a descent of say 600fpm @ 60kts (from 2000' or so)

- Bleed off all the airspeed without arresting the ROD

- Pull up on the collective as we enter VRS

- Push forward to recover...

[ridethisbike]

The point of the maneuver is to make the student capable of recognizing the symptoms. How you, as the instructor, initiate the symptoms doesn't really matter as long as you do it safely. That's my opinion anyways.

 

What benefits do you see with your technique when compared to the tried and true method?

[eagle5]

 

What benefits do you see with your technique when compared to the tried and true method?

 

I was just thinking, if we're most likely to get into it on an approach than maybe that's how we should simulate it. Is it possible that the onset of SWP could feel differently or be harder recognize approaching it from a more normal descent rather than an OGE hover?

 

There's a video they show at the RHC course where an R44 pilot gets into SWP. Why didn't he recognize the onset,...because maybe its harder to see from a non vertical descent?

[Rossco]

Thats an interesting question, only today I had my student do a pinnacle approach to a very small, isolated, whispery cloud at 2000ft... As we approached it he did fine and I was emphasizing the VSI and feeling for the vibrations of ETL throughout. We actually over shot the whispery cloud and before he realized it we were descending at about 1000ft per minute, because of his need to "make the spot". No excessive yaw, slight vibrations, ASI was less than ETL and power was about 22" and we were into wind. He had let his descent rate exceed 300ft/m because he was concentrating on everything else and making the spot. It was a good lesson for him in my opinion and a stark reminder that you have to really focus on those key areas when coming into an approach VSI, ASI, Power and wind direction. The "symptoms" aren't always there but the 3 elements are...

 

Hope this helps.

[Goldy]

 

I was just thinking, if we're most likely to get into it on an approach than maybe that's how we should simulate it. Is it possible that the onset of SWP could feel differently or be harder recognize approaching it from a more normal descent rather than an OGE hover?

 

There's a video they show at the RHC course where an R44 pilot gets into SWP. Why didn't he recognize the onset,...because maybe its harder to see from a non vertical descent?

If it's the video I'm thinking of, he was landing in small clearing surrounded by tall trees, and came in with a tail wind. By the time he realized what was happening he couldn't get out of it. If he had his nose in the wind, with a nice slow steep approach it never would have happened. Sometimes we learn that airspeed is everything so much, that we forget it may not always be the right approach. Usually slower is always better in a confined area or steep approach.

 

I like the idea of trying to enter SWP in more realistic conditions...but never tried it.

[rotormandan]

When I was an instructor I used to do the hover downwind thing. It was always pretty hard to get swp. We'd get a good decent going and pull collective to see if we were in it and most of the time we'd pull up.

 

Eventually I started doing it similar to ur idea. We'd get to about 2-3000'agl with a tail wind. Then I'd say "Pretend that you're setting up to land in that field there. Obviously we're too high and are going to overshoot so let's pretend you're a dumbass and you're going to force it instead of going around." That usually worked alot better. We'd get get into it much more often. That was the main reason I liked the exagerated messed up approach better. Plus it helped enforce to not force bad approaches.

[eagle5]

If it's the video I'm thinking of, he was landing in small clearing surrounded by tall trees, and came in with a tail wind. By the time he realized what was happening he couldn't get out of it. If he had his nose in the wind, with a nice slow steep approach it never would have happened. Sometimes we learn that airspeed is everything so much, that we forget it may not always be the right approach. Usually slower is always better in a confined area or steep approach.

 

I like the idea of trying to enter SWP in more realistic conditions...but never tried it.

 

Its the one where he lands on top of a hotel, hits hard, gets dynamic rollover and they all die! For some reason that video has always stuck with me.

 

...the exagerated messed up approach...to not force bad approaches.

 

That's definitely a better way of putting it!

[Hobie]

 

Its the one where he lands on top of a hotel, hits hard, gets dynamic rollover and they all die! For some reason that video has always stuck with me.

 

 

Do you have a link?

[eagle5]

 

Do you have a link?

 

Sorry, no.

[C of G]

I teach it by setting up a steep approach downwind. The textbook scenario of when it will occur. I pick a spot to make the approach to and have the pilot in training force the approach. Nose high, losing speed, low power.... then the bottom drops out and you can recover. The major difference is that it's always 1500 AGL or better. I have had a DPE say that he didn't like that initiation because the nose would yaw at times and he wasn't looking for a demonstration of LTE. I think the nose yaw is due to pilots flying instruments during a VFR maneuver. Staring inside at the gauges as if that tells them they're in SWP. "Eyes outside!"

[Goldy]

 

Its the one where he lands on top of a hotel, hits hard, gets dynamic rollover and they all die! For some reason that video has always stuck with me.

 

 

That's definitely a better way of putting it!

Oh that one! Yes, that happened in an R44 in a downtown office area. I thought it was South America somewhere...lots of tall buildings all around him.......and he came so close to landing it.

[aeroscout]

If you're talking scenario based, overshooting a very confined area, and attempting to salvage the last part of the approach with a vertical descent into it, with the prerequisites fro SWP present.

[WolftalonID]

If you really want to do it, do a quick stop in a 44, yet instead of holding altitude, purposefully descend into the down wash. Do is at altitude not in an air taxi of course. R22's are darn near impossible to get into it with, but the 44 nearly always will if your not careful.