Upper Limit, Salt Lake City, UT

[pilot#476398]

 

Ahem, "There is nothing you can say to convince them otherwise"... that is the binding agent not the actual events.

 

So there is no more confusion and lack of reading comprehension -

• There is nothing you can say to convince a pilot who is willing to work for free, to not work for free
• There is nothing you can say to convince a wannabe pilot that raping the VA for every penny they can get is wrong (and for a lot of reasons I agree with that actually, e.g. someone who has actually been in combat should get double the GI Bills benefits IMHO).

Fly safe.

 

Seems to me a pilot working for free is just an intern, which many other crowded and hard to get into industries have.

 

Just like a pilot working for $7 bucks an hour, or $400 bucks a month, is simply "paying his dues",...which also occures in many other crowded and hard to get into industries.

 

We're not Harvard grads here! Just high school grads who went to a trade school for a little while

 

...and of course you won't be able to convince me otherwise!.

 

As for flight schools raping the VA? When the VA cancels the flight school funding program because they run out of money, some wannabe pilots counting on that money may be convinced that it was wrong?

 

...they may even be a little pissed off when they learn the truth!

[Spike]

People don’t buy what you do; they buy why you do it……

 

Flight school accreditation and 141 certification cost a lot of time and money to achieve. Plus, it takes more time and more money to maintain these credentials. So why do some flight schools do it? They do it to have constant access to loans, VA and otherwise. They do it to support their operation form the profits gained from students who, in the end, are assuming the loan…

 

Mind you, in the above paragraph, there is no mention about teaching a student how to fly. That is, The company exists to profit from the loan and teaching a student to fly becomes secondary…

 

People don’t buy what you do; they buy why you do it….

[Jaybee]

 

Seems to me a pilot working for free is just an intern, which many other crowded and hard to get into industries have.

 

Just like a pilot working for $7 bucks an hour, or $400 bucks a month, is simply "paying his dues",...which also occures in many other crowded and hard to get into industries.

 

We're not Harvard grads here! Just high school grads who went to a trade school for a little while

 

...and of course you won't be able to convince me otherwise!.

 

As for flight schools raping the VA? When the VA cancels the flight school funding program because they run out of money, some wannabe pilots counting on that money may be convinced that it was wrong?

 

...they may even be a little pissed off when they learn the truth!

 

Usually, interns are still in school or pre-certified if you will

 

RE - cancelling VA funding, it happened once already !

[pilot#476398]

 

Usually, interns are still in school or pre-certified if you will

 

RE - cancelling VA funding, it happened once already !

 

It may be difficult to intern as a pilot without being certified to fly an aircraft?

 

Moot anyway, since I have yet to find an operator willing to take me on as an unpaid intern! I don't even think anyone took that internship offered by Old City Helicopters earlier last year (the only internship I've ever seen for pilots)?

[Spike]

They owe me nothing but training me to the PTS. I chose this school because it is very busy and has a high cfi turnover so hopefully they will be able to give me a job. But if they can't because they don't need me I will begin the long hard road of seeking employment outside of my training school. But as long as I pass my checkrides they've held up there end of the bargain and are not silver state.

 

While your reasoning for attending this school is sound, I doubt you know why management is doing what they are doing, -whatever that may be. Furthermore, in my opinion, they should be teaching you how to become a professional pilot, not just train you to the PTS. Passing the PTS demonstrates a skill and a level of knowledge and it’s the same skill and knowledge your competition will have when you enter the marketplace. Companies hire people, not certificates. And, while its good you understand the road is long and hard, why isn’t the school spending the time to teach you what you need to know so you don’t feel this way, or at least say it publically?

Edited January 4, 2014 by Spike

[Fred0311]

Spike,

I agree with everything you said but I think you're reading more into my post then is there. I believe they are teaching me to be a professional pilot and not just to the pts minimums. I was making a point that a school doesn't owe me a job. I feel I am in a good position to be hired when I finish and they are doing great buisness. I would be foolish however to assume I am a shoe in so I am trying to cultivate other opportunities as well. If I do have to take another route I am concerned my defense of upper lmit may be held against me as I've made no attempt to remain anonymous. I believe that ula is a quality school though and it concerns me to see people dragging their name through the mud with no first hand experience. Please voice concerns, but is it necessary to make such impassioned cries of wrong doing and associate them with a school who would accept payment without delivering a complete service? Regardless if I am hired by ula or not I am confident I will be successful in this industry because I came into it with my eyes open to the challenges, mostly thanks to this website, and the drive to do the hardwork. Despite this I don't think it would be prudent to expect a comfortable or easy ride along the way.

[Spike]

Fred0311

With regards to the PTS, the response was based on what you said i.e., “They owe me nothing but training me to the PTS.”, which, IMO, should be unacceptable. If, in fact, they are teaching you to be a pro, then maybe it’s better to say that or, -nothing at all. In any case, from where many of us sit, with no first-hand experience as you say, have seen and heard this stuff many times before. And, while people are free to compare schools to the SSH fiasco, the proclamations being made here sound eerily familiar. Add this to the claims of students flying turbine machines and you can begin to see where the suspicion comes from…..

 

Either way, concentrate on your goals and hopefully the road won't be that hard.....

Edited January 4, 2014 by Spike

[Fred0311]

Thank you Spike, your points are taken and appreciated. I try to avoid posting as at my level I'm bound to do more harm then good but if I do in the future I shall attempt to be more clear.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Fred0311

[Flying Pig]

ULA isn't Silver State. What they are doing isn't a pyramid scam like SSH. But, what they are is falsely selling a dream. Investing in this career field is a massive, course of life changing decision. I know with my family, the wife needs hard facts to go along with my ideas. I spend a year in flight school and then tell my wife "Oh crap honey….. ummmm… apparently I have to be a CFI for a few years, then do this thing called the Gulf for a couple years and then I think I can move us back home for that EMS job I told you about."

 

If I was a student and sold my future on the fact that ULA has somehow managed to find the goose who laid the golden egg, when in fact its just a marketing scheme, Im going to be pissed when the day comes for me to step into my EMS career and someone breaks the bad news to me.

 

Will I still have a CFII and turbine time, and maybe a VR Course? Sure. But what if I bought into this believing that I was going to have a career when I finished up training? ULA told me I could step right into EMS….I didn't have any desire to do this CFI thing for 3 years. I thought I could go to this school and then move back home and get that EMS job in my home town? What happened?

 

What they are doing isn't criminal like SSH, but they are lying to people and completely made up this idea that they say sets their school apart. And they did it targeting students with VA money to spend. People will say "Well, the student should have researched." Maybe so. Or perhaps the school shouldn't have lied in their commercial to get their business. So when a vet shows up to ULA, do they sit them down and tell them that this commercial is nowhere near what is going to happen?

Edited January 5, 2014 by Flying Pig

[Jaybee]

Silver State wasn't criminal* till they went out of business

 

Meanwhile - false advertising, no schedule of fees and false promises of careers is exactly what they do have in common with Silver State. Nobody is doing this to them other than themselves. I didn't drive up there, put a gun to their head and force them to make a BS recruiting video, etc, etc. Don't want to be compared to SS ? Easy - delete the BS video, don't promise easy access to careers by selling overly expensive aircraft time and post a schedule of fees.

 

Seriously, its that simple. If you don't want to be compared to something like Silver State, then don't do things that Silver State did.

 

*Correct me if I'm wrong here, as I did not follow the events - but was SS even convicted of any criminal charges ? Lawsuits - yes, Criminal charges - no that I know of.

I've actually worked with 3 Silver State graduates. Two of them were really knowledgeable pilots, good sticks and more importantly good people. Most of all, if you would have asked them at the time - they would have stuck up for SS much in the same way people are now sticking up for ULA. In fact, if you were to read some posts on this very site from back then, there were people adamantly sticking up for Silver State !

 

So there it is as simply as it can be put. I have nothing against ULA (other than their shady advertising). Whether or not they succeed or go out of business has zero bearing on me. In fact I could care less. What I do care about, however is someone thinking about going there and getting incorrect facts. ULA as bad as SS ? probably not, but make sure you go in with your eyes wide open !

[helipilotm]

So there it is as simply as it can be put. I have nothing against ULA (other than their shady advertising). Whether or not they succeed or go out of business has zero bearing on me. In fact I could care less. What I do care about, however is someone thinking about going there and getting incorrect facts. ULA as bad as SS ? probably not, but make sure you go in with your eyes wide open !

I also have nothing against ULA as a whole. My problem with them is abusing the crap out of the GI bill. There is no reason on this earth why a student needs a mountain, longline course in an Astar. There is no reason why they need a 205 course! The GI bill is paid for you and I that pay taxed. I think the vets deserve to be able to use it but not for a long line course etc. I have flown with a couple ULA pilots, talked to some of there students and it amazes me how blinded they are. Sure they are good people but they have had lie after lie crammed down there throat and its only going to effect them and nobody else. And I know it's not every student there just like ssh allot know what's going on some don't. Seems like the ones that don't are the ones that defend their schools the most.

[Spike]

People will believe what they want to believe. Sadly today, many educational institutions are now in business to make money, not to enhance the lives of their customers. That being said, no, a mountain Vref course in a 350 for an entry level commercial pilot applicant is worthless and may be even detrimental to that applicant’s further employment. Example; below is the most recipient want ad for a CFI position.

 

FAA Certified Flight Instructor (CFI/CFII) with a minimum 500 hours total time and ideally R22 / S300 (HU269) and R44 Experienced. We are specifically looking for a Pilot with substantial R22 flight time.

 

This ad is typical for an entry level CFII positions with the majority of US flight schools. Therefore, it’s easy to see, AS350 mountain Vref time has no benefit. Furthermore, if the AS350 mountain Vref time took time away from the R22 time building, then the applicant is now at a disadvantage. Plus, some schools will not only minimize an applicant because of turbine experience, they sometimes will completely reject the applicant due to the ego factor.

 

Another marker is; how many CFII graduates have been hired on at other schools? If graduates are being pumped out, where are they going as they all can't be hired on. If they are, then that’s another indicator of a bogus business prectice.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Spike

[PondJumper]

ULA isn't Silver State. What they are doing isn't a pyramid scam like SSH. But, what they are is falsely selling a dream. Investing in this career field is a massive, course of life changing decision. I know with my family, the wife needs hard facts to go along with my ideas. I spend a year in flight school and then tell my wife "Oh crap honey.. ummmm apparently I have to be a CFI for a few years, then do this thing called the Gulf for a couple years and then I think I can move us back home for that EMS job I told you about."

 

If I was a student and sold my future on the fact that ULA has somehow managed to find the goose who laid the golden egg, when in fact its just a marketing scheme, Im going to be pissed when the day comes for me to step into my EMS career and someone breaks the bad news to me.

 

Will I still have a CFII and turbine time, and maybe a VR Course? Sure. But what if I bought into this believing that I was going to have a career when I finished up training? ULA told me I could step right into EMS.I didn't have any desire to do this CFI thing for 3 years. I thought I could go to this school and then move back home and get that EMS job in my home town? What happened?

 

What they are doing isn't criminal like SSH, but they are lying to people and completely made up this idea that they say sets their school apart. And they did it targeting students with VA money to spend. People will say "Well, the student should have researched." Maybe so. Or perhaps the school shouldn't have lied in their commercial to get their business. So when a vet shows up to ULA, do they sit them down and tell them that this commercial is nowhere near what is going to happen?

 

I just finished my Instrument with ULA in Salt Lake so I'll speak from experience here. This flight school doesn't sell false hope of an upper level heli job after training with them. They simply give you hours in the airframes employers are asking for. If you infer the previously mentioned then I gotta say its on you and your lack of research.

 

I'm far from a fan boy but the fact is that they run a solid program. Having used the VA for all my ratings thus far, yeah I see a bad moon rising for them. That being said, the cost of the program is presented to the college, then the VA, then approved. The VA sees these costs before they are approved so there is no wool over any eyes.

 

I don't know how long the Chapter 33 flight training will last (nothing this sweet will last forever), nor do I pretend to know how the VA allots it's student funding, but as far as the atmosphere at ULA, regarding the prospect for a job, few students have any unrealistic expectations about their future.

 

I feel like I can say this with credibility as I am no longer a ULA student, but my time there was not ill spent.

 

Heck I even bought a T-shirt.

 

Oh yeah, they are separating from the college BTW so if you're looking to CFI with ULA find a different location

[Flying Pig]

I'm not inferring anything...... I watched the guy say it in the video. He actually said "when you leave here you can skip tier 1 level tour jobs and go right into EMS or firefighting"

Edited January 10, 2014 by Flying Pig

[PondJumper]

I'm not inferring anything...... I watched the guy say it in the video. He actually said "when you leave here you can skip tier 1 level tour jobs and go right into EMS or firefighting"

Can you link the vid? If I'm wrong about what they're putting out id like to know.

[WolftalonID]

 

Here is the video....listen to the whole deal, but pay attention from marker 2:20 to 3:00 minutes.

 

OMG that just irritates me hearing him say that and they aired it like it was HOT........

[pilot#476398]

 

Oh yeah, they are separating from the college BTW so if you're looking to CFI with ULA find a different location

 

Why would that mean I can't CFI with them?

[Flying Pig]

I just shake my head every time I watch that thing

[gary-mike]

Why would that mean I can't CFI with them?

Because unless they get a new contract, the student inflow is going to drop to almost nothing. They are currently working on this but I haven't heard any recent updates.

 

Good news is they have two other locations running strong through other colleges. So yes it is possible to get on as a CFI with them, but I'm sure they will not be hiring as many CFI's from other schools.

[Fred0311]

They actually got the online courses going with SUU for the salt lake campus so there will be gap in the pipeline but its coming again.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Fred0311

[PondJumper]

Here is the video....listen to the whole deal, but pay attention from marker 2:20 to 3:00 minutes.

OMG that just irritates me hearing him say that and they aired it like it was HOT........

Thanks for posting this man. Ok I will agree his statements can be interpreted the way you say, if you're a new student that knows nothing about the industry. Indeed he said nothing about having to build hours as a CFI before getting the first big job, but they train you in the 206 l for commercial, then allow you to instruct turbine (provided they hire you) after you reach 500 hours total time. I don't know any other school that does this.

 

I will agree with you that if someone has done zero research on the requirements of this industry this video could easily be misleading.

[WolftalonID]

Would have been a much better to hear them say that to clarify. This is where those of us from the outside of ULA are so irate. No operator is going to hire a pilot with 200 hrs for 135 turbine work, the minimum 500 hr mark has to be met. Now if you build hrs teaching, cross that 1000 hr hurdle, and along the way have also built your "turbine" time to several hundred hours vs the few 5-10 one may have logged for training.....I see great potential in Mikes statements.

 

It is so frustrating that they didn't clarify that and aired that video as something else....those not in the know only hear what was said, not what that CFI knows.

 

The same thing happens in class rooms. Students cant learn from whats in my head, only from what I say....and that needs to match up to their books, and home study material. So as a CFI, its a responsibility to SPEAK, whole thoughts, whole lessons, and whole truths, with the understanding the listener has NO background from which to weight the information against.

[Spike]

They simply give you hours in the airframes employers are asking for. If you infer the previously mentioned then I gotta say its on you and your lack of research.

 

 

This description is misleading. That is, what airframes are you referring to? The typical entry level job market airframes would be the R22/44, S300, Enstrom and B47. Other than that, I see employers looking for B206B/L, B407, AS350, EC135, A139, UH-1 pilots so are these the other airframes you are referring to? And, what are the hours in these airframes employers are looking for? From my experience, employers want the most hours possible and, that usually starts at 25 hours. Something like, 2000 hours total, 500 turbine, 25 in type.

 

Here‘s the rub. For the entry level job market, graduating from a school with 200 hours of total time no one will care about 5 hours in a 206 or 350. Why? Because when you amass 1000 hours of CFI time and come to me as an entry level turbine pilot, we all know, those 5 hours magically turns into 25 hours. Why 25? Because that’s the minimum established by the insurance provider and I stated it in the job ad…..

 

If I were a VA benefit recipient, during my training, I’d do all I could to get highly proficient in the R22/44 and S300. So much so, that I’d stand out (way-out) during a pre-employment flight eval. Plus, I’d all I could to enhance my interpersonal relationship and leadership skills. Furthermore, during this entire time I’d be working a job and saving for a FACTORY SCHOOL. Insurance providers put a higher value on factory training. Ad-hoc turbine training means little simply because you can turn 5 hours into 25 with a whip of a pencil. Basically, you can’t pencil in factory training…

 

Lastly, there is a reason why entry level turbine employers will provide their own turbine transition training. That is, it’s best to come in with thousands of hours or zero… Five equals zero, but at five you will posture yourself like like you have 100......

Edited January 10, 2014 by Spike

[helipilotm]

 

This description is misleading. That is, what airframes are you referring to? The typical entry level job market airframes would be the R22/44, S300, Enstrom and B47. Other than that, I see employers looking for B206B/L, B407, AS350, EC135, A139, UH-1 pilots so are these the other airframes you are referring to? And, what are the hours in these airframes employers are looking for? From my experience, employers want the most hours possible and, that usually starts at 25 hours. Something like, 2000 hours total, 500 turbine, 25 in type.

 

Heres the rub. For the entry level job market, graduating from a school with 200 hours of total time no one will care about 5 hours in a 206 or 350. Why? Because when you amass 1000 hours of CFI time and come to me as an entry level turbine pilot, we all know, those 5 hours magically turns into 25 hours. Why 25? Because thats the minimum established by the insurance provider and I stated it in the job ad..

 

If I were a VA benefit recipient, during my training, Id do all I could to get highly proficient in the R22/44 and S300. So much so, that Id stand out (way-out) during a pre-employment flight eval. Plus, Id all I could to enhance my interpersonal relationship and leadership skills. Furthermore, during this entire time Id be working a job and saving for a FACTORY SCHOOL. Insurance providers put a higher value on factory training. Ad-hoc turbine training means little simply because you can turn 5 hours into 25 with a whip of a pencil. Basically, you cant pencil in factory training

 

Lastly, there is a reason why entry level turbine employers will provide their own turbine transition training. That is, its best to come in with thousands of hours or zero Five equals zero, but at five you will posture yourself like like you have 100......

+ 100 to what Spike said! As a turbine instructor nothing bugs me more than seeing a résumé with way low turbine hours, then meet with the pilot and in a way have them brag or be extra proud of their hours. Then fly with them and they know nothing. Now don't get me wrong I was extremely proud of my first turbine hours, but I was 100% honest about them. Meaning I was up front saying I pretty much knew nothing about the helicopter.

A little story... Last spring I was in our hangar getting ready to go do a game survey for the next day. The Chief pilot walked in and said there is a pilot coming in an hour will you go fly with him in a 206B I said ok, he handed me his résumé. I looked it over 1500 total 100 turbine in a 206B. He showed up we talked a bit and got ready to fly. As we were talking he said his turbine time came from an old CFI on ferry flights. They did a few hours of starts EP's etc. I started the machine and turned it over to him. To say it was a rough flight was an understatement. It was obvious he didn't have 100 hours of 206 time. Now I know interview flights can be rough but you know when a guy has a fair amount of time in a particular model. We ended up not hiring him for a few reasons. The main one was he was low time for our normal new hires. He had been bugging the CP for awhile. The CP liked him and thought he would just see how he was. It turned out we hired a friend of his and the truth came out he had around 20 hours, all ferry time, no starts, EP's etc. if he would have been upfront I would have slowed way down and given him a chance. I figured if he had anything close to 100 hours he was more than capable of just jumping in and being totally fine. Moral of the story he might have got hired if he wouldnt have stretched the truth. Sorry about the long winded rant. I guess Spike hit a nerve.

 

Another thing to add about the video is its a marketing video. They made it to mislead students in a sense. They are trying to recruit more students. I'm not saying there lying but not telling the whole truth. Their making it sound so much easier than it really is. I would dare say if 40-50% of pilots knew exactly what they were getting into before they signed up and started school, they wouldn't do it.

Edited January 16, 2014 by helipilotm

[Flying Pig]

How they do their start up is usually a dead give away. You can almost hear their brain saying "Please don't screw this up, please don't screw this up." One guy I had flying with me would pause for several seconds before he hit the starter almost like he was psyching himself up. He was my student, so I knew what his capabilities were. He ended up with about 100hrs dual in 500Es and doesn't even have a private

 

If I was doing an interview…. Id want to talk to my applicant in some serious detail before I let them have access to the starter. In your case, Im assuming you started it for him?