Part 61 vs Part 141- Why are there two routes?

[wbrady755]

I understand that there are different requirements to satisfy the Part 61 vs Part 141 certification requirements as a pilot, but why are there two? It seems like the part 61 is a quick route, and the 141 has more requirements. Why would the FAA have two separate routes to certify its pilots?

 

 

[kkeller]

There is a fairly big difference actually.

 

As a CFI, if I had my own helicopter, I would be using the regulations in Part 61 to certify my students.

 

Say my student base grew, and I wanted to actually start my own flight school (instead of "freelance" instructing). I could get my school approved by the FAA under Part 141. Part 141 has to do with pilot schools.

 

I cannot, as an instructor, train a pilot under Part 141 unless I am a part of an approved Part 141 pilot school.

 

A Part 141 school has requirements it has to meet. It also has to have a curriculum that has been approved by the FAA.

 

Why go through the effort to get a curriculum approved and meet the requirements for a Part 141 school? One big reason is the lower hour requirement.

 

This website explains it nicely: http://www.cfidarren.com/r-part141.htm

[bqmassey]

kkeller explained it well, and that link he posted shows you a nice table of some of the differences.

 

In regards to why there are two different routes, it just gives flight schools and pilots-in-training two different options.

 

Part 141 is very structured and meets certain requirements as to how the training is conducted. The FAA is comfortable giving an airmen's certificate (a.k.a. "pilot's license") to someone with a little less flight experience if they complete a 141 course, because the FAA analyzed and approved that specific course.

 

Part 61 is far more flexible in how the training is conducted, but then the FAA doesn't really know how you were trained. It could be outstanding training, but they don't know, so the flight hour requirements are a little higher.

 

Understand that you can receive great training from programs operated under either part. Neither is automatically superior to the other. Additionally, a Part 141 school can still train someone under Part 61 if they choose, and a Part 61 school is free to operate with just as much or more structure as a 141 school.

 

Having a flight instructor that is emotionally invested in seeing you succeed is a much bigger influence on the quality of instruction you receive than whether or not the training is conducted under Part 141 or Part 61.

[Spike]

Actually, there is little difference between the two. The only real difference is, 141 has oversight by the feds who believe this oversight raises the standard, which in fact, it does not. That is, with this supposed oversight, the curriculum is allowed to reduce some of the solo time but must still fill the same solo and dual requirements set forth in 61 such as night, instrument and cross-country for example. However, as we all know, helicopter students rarely meet the minimums at the time of their check-ride so the reduced flight time has little to no benefit to the student….. Furthermore, some flight schools use 141 as a means to force the student to pay for instruction for which the student doesn’t need… This is bunk… With that, students should know, 141 give flight schools the ability to provide loans, visas and VA benefits as all of these institutions require Federal oversight of some kind which provides some sort of legitimacy…. Therefore, non-beneficiary 141 students should understand, they always have the option to bounce off of 141 and go 61 anytime they so desire……

[Flying Pig]

Ive attended both, multiple times for all of my FW and RW ratings. As far as being a student, its all the same. Really the only difference was that at a 141, some of the instructors may have examining authority and you cant get loans or use the VA at a part 61. For example, my instrument check ride was with one of the stage check instructors vs a DPE. So I didnt have to pay $600 for a check ride to an outside examiner. But beyond that….. you are trained to the same standards.

[OGE]

61 puts the onus on the instructor.

141 puts the onus on the school.

[wbrady755]

Thanks guys, that actually cleared it up a lot.

[Nick9er]

Ive attended both, multiple times for all of my FW and RW ratings. As far as being a student, its all the same. Really the only difference was that at a 141, some of the instructors may have examining authority and you cant get loans or use the VA at a part 61. For example, my instrument check ride was with one of the stage check instructors vs a DPE. So I didnt have to pay $600 for a check ride to an outside examiner. But beyond that….. you are trained to the same standards.

Your practical exam was with a stage check instructor at your school, for the actual issuance of the instrument rating?

[avbug]

There aren't two routes.

 

Part 61 simply prescribes the requirements to gain certification.

 

For a structured, closely monitored operation under a FAA certificate, Part 141 (and 142) prescribes certification requirements.

 

Same pilot certificate.

 

One can pilot an aircraft from A to B as a simple Part 91 operation, or conduct it under a number of other regulations ranging from Part 121 to 135 and 137; the type of operation determines what certificate the operator must hold. The same is true of pilot training operations.

 

Part 141 operations allow reduced total times, and a very structured, closely monitored training process. It wasn't created to develop multiple routes to certification; part 141 was developed to provide a detailed regulatory requirement for flight schools to establish a standardized training system, and recognize the qualification of that system by reducing the hour requirements.

[Pohi]

 

Your practical exam was with a stage check instructor at your school, for the actual issuance of the instrument rating?

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. It's been a while, but I remember something like that. The school I went to had examining authority on the airplane for most of their 141 certificates, and private (maybe inst/comm) on the helicopter side.

 

And yeah, you can get ratings without seeing the FAA or a DPE in these cases. The signature on my private paper certificate was the flight school

owner.

[Pohi]

It's 141.61

 

On a side note, I didn't realize schools could get examining authority for the written tests too. Maybe that 90% pass rate on the first try for 2 years straight holds things up.

[Nearly Retired]

As usual, Avbug is slightly...err, "confused" I guess would be the best term. But it's understandable; it happens a lot to people of his age. Like my grandpa. So let's be kind. Avbug has probably forgotten more about aviation...and life...than most of us. Like how to tie his shoes. Or where his car keys are. Oh wait- I forget that all the time...D'OH!

 

Moving on...

 

Avi's comparison of 61/141 with 91/135 is not quite valid. Sure, any pilot can fly along, la-la-la under Part 91. But if you want to make money with your aircraft, then there are a couple of routes you can take. You can be a Part 91 commercial operator, doing stuff like...ohhhh, cherry-drying which does not fall under 135 or 121 or even 137. This is the route my employer has chosen. He has a 135 certificate for his fixed-wing, but did not choose to include the helicopters under that certificate.

 

Same for aspiring pilots. One route you could take would be to find any ol' flight instructor and get your ratings within the fairly loose confines of FAR Part 61. OR...you could go the route of an established school with 141 certification. Two routes - your choice. Same certificate at the end, yes. But different ways of getting there - one slightly longer than the other, each with its own advantages and disadvantages.

 

So again, let's be compassionate with Avbug. He tends to overcomplicate things. Sometimes it's the simple questions that throw him. And will someone help him tie his shoes, goddammit?

[Guest pokey]

 

So again, let's be compassionate with Avbug. He tends to overcomplicate things. Sometimes it's the simple questions that throw him. And will someone help him tie his shoes, goddammit?

 

no way Jose ! the names and insults and accusations he has done to me? he is NO professional that deserves ANY compassion, I will help him find the bugspray tho

[aeroscout]

Bugjuice anyone ?