"...our current scud-running culture"

[fortunate]

http://www.verticalmag.com/features/features_article/CulturalBarriers

 

Thought this was a good read.

[achfly]

I think it's kind of obvious that more IFR aircraft will improve the issues with IIMC. In the meantime I believe that those with an instrument rating, even without a lot of instrument experience, can do a lot to stay safe with very little training and trouble. I find it extra tragic when these "scud running" accidents involve a pilot with an instrument rating. If the weather is going to be less than 3000 and 5 anywhere on your flight an instrument rated pilot should take a few moments to make an IIMC recovery plan and have a chat with themselves and their crew about committing to instruments if they 'punch in' or lose the horizon. Im instrument rated but the bird I fly is not. You better believe I'm familiar with the closest PAR. If that's not available I've got a GPS that isn't certified but will work fine in an emergency. And let's not forget that IIMC is an emergency in a non IFR aircraft. If your aircraft doesn't have a GPS or even so much as an ADF and there's no PAR in the area YOU NEED TO RAISE YOUR VFR MINIMUMS A BIT AND STICK TO THEM. And if at all possible find a way to practice going IMC a couple times a year. I get the chance to do it in the sim and sometimes the aircraft. It can be tough to go from outside to instruments and get stable. We all need a little practice.

[WolftalonID]

Well archfly. 3000 5 seems like a stretch for ADM. Different regions will have different weather, and different concerns. You fly near the coast, and weather can be very volatile and produce fog or thin clouds fast. I spent some time in Texas and the beautiful days would not be that way for long at times.

 

Helicopters are allowed VFR below VMC for a reason. So when we are flying IMC but still maintaining 1 mile vis and clear of clouds, we just need to know our weather and how to stay safe. I am instrument rated, CFII actually, and fly with both non instrument rated pilots and other instrument pilots.

 

I currently fly in high altitude mountain regions, where I have spent most of my flying and weather up here is just as volatile but in a completly different way. Fogs, clouds, rain, snow, haze, smoke. It is all here and we are flying through it often and with safety well inside any 3000 5. Sure clear sunny days exist, but more days at 1000 3 are experienced.

 

We just fly by the rule....land the damn bird. Works pretty well if weather closes in while we are dispatched.

Edited July 31, 2016 by WolftalonID

[r22butters]

Now I know I'm just an "amateur", but it seems to me that if your operation experiences more 1000 and 3 days than nice sunny ones and you're regularly reminding yourself to "land the damn helicopter" (yes I went to that seminar too) if weather closes in, shouldn't you invest in some IFR ships?

Edited July 31, 2016 by r22butters

[Pohi]

Maybe it's just me, but more IFR ships isn't a realistic answer for a lot of helicopter operations. Yeah, it's great for transfers between hospitals or airports, or in the Gulf between bases and big platforms that have instrument approaches. However, what makes helicopters so great is that we don't need airports or bases to operate out of.

 

Trying to get an IFR clearance in the middle of BFE, especially when you have no radio or cell reception on the ground would be somewhat challenging. As well as trying to get an approach to the truck in a random field.

 

I think that the improvements in stability controls in VFR helicopters will help out in some cases of IIMC.

 

That being said, I think decision making when it comes to weather is way more important than what type of equipment the helicopter has.

[Eric Hunt]

Flying IFR is more restrictive than VFR, and when your destination is a farmhouse that obviously doesn't have a published approach, and the nearest airport is 45nm away, and the house is at 1800' but the surrounding hills are 4500', there is no sense in going IFR.

 

My ship was an SPIFR twin, and on really bad weather days, I went VFR under the rubbish, and it was a super-special VFR, wheels brushing the trees and rotors in the clouds sort of stuff, but i got through. I went IFR back in the other direction because the destination was a major airport.

[RagMan]

My ship was an SPIFR twin, and on really bad weather days, I went VFR under the rubbish, and it was a super-special VFR, wheels brushing the trees and rotors in the clouds sort of stuff, but i got through. I went IFR back in the other direction because the destination was a major airport.

I don't mean to thread jack here, but I'm extremely rusty on my instrument knowledge as I haven't touched instrument material for over 2 1/2 years. Did you file an IFR plan prior to departure from the accident LZ for the return trip, or how did that work? Also, would you just fly a company published approach back into the hospital if IFR conditions were present, granted you filed and opened a plan?

Edited August 1, 2016 by RagMan

[Spike]

I was once of the opinion, a proficient IFR pilot going IIMC was just another procedure. Then I got educated. No matter the man or machine, IIMC is an emergency procedure……

 

IFR helicopters are not the answer. IIMC avoidance through training, ADM and solid judgment will keep you from bumping into things…. That, and knowing your operating environment coupled with landing the dam helicopter. Simply put, pilots should be proactive to stay out of the soup. If they rely on being reactive, then they’re bound to get into trouble….

[r22butters]

 

My ship was an SPIFR twin, and on really bad weather days, I went VFR under the rubbish, and it was a super-special VFR, wheels brushing the trees and rotors in the clouds sort of stuff, but i got through. I went IFR back in the other direction because the destination was a major airport.

So if you weren't flying an IFR ship how would you have gotten back?

[Wally]

It's the pilot, not the equipment. Fully IFR capable, two proficient pilots in a twin engine machine in an area of great familiarity make a smoking hole almost identical to a single engine VFR if the flight crew has its' head fully inserted and locked.

Have a plan that fits your equipment and ability to use it right now, whiskey compass or fully coupled.

[WolftalonID]

So if you weren't flying an IFR ship how would you have gotten back?

Then you wait...on the ground....until you can.

[r22butters]

Then you wait...on the ground....until you can.

Wouldn't that upset your client? Who may than ask, why did you accept the job if you didn't have the right equipment to complete it?

[Eric Hunt]

First of all, it wasn't in EMS, it was a private operation. The Boss wants to go somewhere, we tried hard to get him there. But even he could see that there are times to say NO or even HELL NO.

 

I knew the VFR ways to get to his farm, and even invented an RNAV to follow a valley and descend safely at night in VMC - it was black as the inside of a cow out there in the hills. But it wasn't an IFR destination. Coming out of there IFR was just as tricky, I phone a plan through, but our rules say that I must be in contact with ATC before going IMC on departure - a bit tricky when I need to be at 6000' to get radio contact, but the cloud is on the hills at 3000' and safety height was 5000'. Luckily it was a remote area, and the Big Sky Theory had to do, until I got high enough to talk to ATC and proceed on the plan. However, I had to know that the destination would let me in before I went into the cloud, because there was no way of going back to the farm from there.

 

One late afternoon for a delayed departure, a series of thunderstorms had us surrounded and the destination was similar. I managed to stay clear of the clouds while climbing to radio height, the weather radar looked like it had measles, and asked ATC if they were likely to let me into Capital City in an hour's time (would be fully black by then and pelting pickhandles). Sadly, they told me to go away, jets were diverting all over the state and there was no way that they would allow a private helicopter to clog up the airways and slow the jets. So, I dodged the storms back to the farm and we waited till the next day.

But an AS350 which left the farm VFR the same time as me, stayed down low, got cornered by clouds, and landed next to a farmhouse 20 miles away, where they sheltered on the verandah and watched the hailstones beat his machine to a pulp - it had to be trucked out, but at least he was there to talk about it.

[WolftalonID]

Wouldn't that upset your client? Who may than ask, why did you accept the job if you didn't have the right equipment to complete it?

My answer would be simple...

 

"Sir the right equipment to complete the job is layin right between my ears. God gave me this tool to use and I am using it and have determined that your life is worth more than the flight. It has become unsafe to continue flight due to uncontrollable weather changes. I do have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, but try as I have he still refuses to calm the storms and clear the skys for me...says that was a parlor trick for fishermen, and pilots wouldnt appreciate it anyway."

 

Thats a direct quote from the good book, FAR chapter 91 verse 3.

Edited August 2, 2016 by WolftalonID

[r22butters]

My answer would be simple...

"Sir the right equipment to complete the job is layin right between my ears. God gave me this tool to use and I am using it and have determined that your life is worth more than the flight. It has become unsafe to continue flight due to uncontrollable weather changes. I do have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, but try as I have he still refuses to calm the storms and clear the skys for me...says that was a parlor trick for fishermen, and pilots wouldnt appreciate it anyway."

Thats a direct quote from the good book, FAR chapter 91 verse 3.

Well I guess next time I'll just take my business down the street, where they have IFR helicopters, and don't accept flights they most likely won't be able to complete,...is something a client might say.

 

I'm simply asking that if your operation has you routinely scud running to stay VFR wouldn't you at least want the option of going IFR?

Edited August 2, 2016 by r22butters

[r22butters]

...it was black as the inside of a cow out there in the hills.

My last flight in the 206 was like that. Had the owner sitting next to me telling me exactly where/how to go in. The only light that eventually came into view was a tiny little bulb off the side of his house. Even with around 200hrs of night at the time, it still scared the piss out of me!

[Wally]

Is it operating in MVFR weather conditions "scud running"?

Is it operating in IFR weather conditions "scud running"?

Is it operating in LIFR weather conditions "scud running"?

Is maintaining clear of clouds on a special VFR "scud running"?

[r22butters]

Scud running is when you are so close to the ground that you (or part of you) will have to enter the clouds in order to climb over any obstacle that comes across your path.

 

Scud running is when the clouds are so low that you cannot tell if there is a tower on top of that hill in front of you.

 

Scud running is when that little man inside your head asks if you really should be doing this today?

 

So, what does scud running mean to you?

 

https://youtu.be/w2c68irhMeA

 

Saw this on another thread. Good example of ferry flight scud running.

 

If you find yourself inadvertently slowing down because the distance you can see ahead is getting less and less you may be scud running!

Edited August 2, 2016 by r22butters

[WolftalonID]

Dont worry butters....we have a back up for our company R22. The extra 429 we fly should do to save you from walkin.

[r22butters]

Dont worry butters....we have a back up for our company R22. The extra 429 we fly should do to save you from walkin.

What are you crazy!? I can't afford to SFH one of those!

 

Just gonna sit here and write in my journal,...'cause I guess I can't even afford a gameboy either?

[WolftalonID]

Hmmmm...he had a GPS, and a sectional. I wonder if his instructor ever taught him what those pesky black ticked lines all over that sectional were.

 

Too bad he couldnt pin point his location on the map.

[Wally]

What are you crazy!? I can't afford to SFH one of those!

 

Just gonna sit here and write in my journal,...'cause I guess I can't even afford a gameboy either?

Kinda snarky, aintcha?

 

What is 'scud running'? The image that immediately comes to mind is nap of the earth in poor weather. That stereotype is too limited, one could be pushing weather at any altitude, I've been without useful visual reference in VMC at altitudes up to 9000 agl. I was 'legally' VFR but functionally IMC in those events. Yes, I was at increased risk, but an exposure not casually accepted as boundaries and realistic plans were in place, plans within the law, aircraft and my own capabilities. Hoping there's not a rock in that cloud and that there is better weather on the other side is not a plan.

 

The Youtube videos posted show different aspects the job requires:

"R44 Special VFR Inclement Weather Oxnard to Vegas" is a PIC with intimate familiarity with the route's terrain guiding the PF. Without that local knowledge, forecast and broad oversight of weather, knowledge of absolute altitude and speed in the video, I can't say if it was as ugly as it appears. What it does show is the continuous change in what's included in your visual range, change in the ceiling and vis as you progress through whatever marginal weather conditions you will allow. It's not a clearly defined dome of 500 and 3 miles moving around you.

The next part of that video's lessons demonstrate the requirement for a dynamic and flexible continuous decision making process. Change your route, altitude, speed as required to stay safe but have a defined minimum that when encountered aborts the flight, and a continuing plan for that acceptable abort.

 

The second video:

"Robinson R22 Flight to Gatlinburg - Precautionary landing due to Weather + climb to 13,200ft"

shows realistic appreciation for risk and the continuing dynamic plan in action. The route proposed was not straight over the mountains (A scary place that I am familiar with), instead down the valley and parallel the ridge back up to destination. I don't like the HIawassee Valley, but it's a better choice than crossing the Smokeys direct. He landed after the weather became unacceptable, was patient and completed the flight safely.

 

Both good calls and vivid illustrations of the day-to-day of real pilots.

[r22butters]

"R44 Special VFR Inclement Weather Oxnard to Vegas" is a PIC with intimate familiarity with the route's terrain guiding the PF

As an IIMC survivor I can tell you that the conversation/situation in that R44 ferry flight were eerily familiar, and could have gone real bad real quick at several points! Intimate knowledge plus a private owner can be a scarry combination!

 

https://youtu.be/7RRQPR6Y3CQ

 

This guy was obviously a very skilled pilot,...but you can only poke the bear so many times! R.I.P.

Edited August 6, 2016 by r22butters

[achfly]

Well archfly. 3000 5 seems like a stretch for ADM. Different regions will have different weather, and different concerns. You fly near the coast, and weather can be very volatile and produce fog or thin clouds fast. I spent some time in Texas and the beautiful days would not be that way for long at times.

 

Helicopters are allowed VFR below VMC for a reason. So when we are flying IMC but still maintaining 1 mile vis and clear of clouds, we just need to know our weather and how to stay safe. I am instrument rated, CFII actually, and fly with both non instrument rated pilots and other instrument pilots.

 

I currently fly in high altitude mountain regions, where I have spent most of my flying and weather up here is just as volatile but in a completly different way. Fogs, clouds, rain, snow, haze, smoke. It is all here and we are flying through it often and with safety well inside any 3000 5. Sure clear sunny days exist, but more days at 1000 3 are experienced.

 

We just fly by the rule....land the damn bird. Works pretty well if weather closes in while we are dispatched.

I think we're on the same page. I didn't say cancel at less than 3000 and 5. I said have a plan for IIMC and be mentally ready to execute. So many people have crashed perfectly good aircraft because they are in denial of their situation. They spend way to long trying to find an outside horizon instead of transitioning to instruments. I know it can happen to anyone but if you have an IIMC recovery plan before you leave the ground I think that improves your odds a lot. I've flown the Rockies and the coast of Texas. Two areas of very dynamic weather with sneaky changes. I get what you're saying; you're aware of this and you've done the mental prep. You're a good example to myself and others. Thank you.