R44 turbulence, When to know it is time to reduce speed

[Longsled]

In the R44 POH it is indicated to reduce the airspeed to 60-70 knots in turbulence.....

 

So how to know when the turbulences are enough strong to require a speed reduction?

 

Does any kind of turbulence require a certain amount of reduction?

 

thanks.

[gh1]

There's definitions of the different levels of turbulence out there, but basically when the ride starts getting pretty rough you're going to want to slow down. Not trying to be condescending, but you'll know it when it happens.

[Whiteshadow]

I slow down once I start to see a pattern of close together moments feeling "light in the seat". Aside from your own comfort and ability to estimate how much wind you are feeling there isn't a solid answer to that question.

[Longsled]

_{well, last week I was totally unconfortable in flght on the montains when going to a fly in. There was 2 others r44's private pilots with their helicos, and both told me that they still ran 100 kts under that windy/gusting condition. (Gusting was 22 knots)}

 

_{So it is looking that ''inconfortable flight'' not mean the same for all pilots. I think that my tolerance to the turbulences is lower than average pilots. When I ear the blades flapping with vertical speed I'm not confortable at all. BTW, what is causing that blades flapping sound at CRUISE speed?}

 

 

_{What kind of heavy conditions can lead to a tailboom strike?}

 

 

_thanks.

[r22butters]

I would refer you to the last page of the limitations section in the POH where it mentions the SFAR 73 winds and turbulace limits, but I can't get it to upload. So all I'll say is;

 

If the turbulance causes, "(1)changes in altitude or attitude, (2) variations in indicated airspeed, and (3) aircraft occupants feel definite strains against seat belt",...SLOW DOWN!

[Jaybee]

I would refer you to the last page of the limitations section in the POH where it mentions the SFAR 73 winds and turbulace limits, but I can't get it to upload. So all I'll say is;

 

If the turbulance causes, "(1)changes in altitude or attitude, (2) variations in indicated airspeed, and (3) aircraft occupants feel definite strains against seat belt",...SLOW DOWN!

 

Sincerely interested in what you are reading as I see no such thing written in the limitation section here - http://www.robinsonheli.com/manuals/r44_1_poh/r44_1_poh_2.pdf

 

There is Safety Notice SN-32 however - http://www.robinsonheli.com/manuals/r44_1_poh/r44_1_poh_10.pdf - but since Robinson doesn't use standard FAA verbiage its ( they say significant for example ) its about as useful as used toilet paper.

 

To the OP - personally in the Bell 47 I have been in 30G42 and felt totally comfortable and I have been in the 44 in 15G22 in the R44 and felt really uncomfortable. I've been in worse in the 44 at 100kts and I'm still here to talk about it for whatever that's worth.

[r22butters]

Sincerely interested in what you are reading as I see no such thing written in the limitation section here - http://www.robinsonheli.com/manuals/r44_1_poh/r44_1_poh_2.pdf

 

 

My POH is over ten years old and I could not find it in the free ones they have on their website so maybe its no longer an issue? The top of the page says "R44 Limitations Section" At the bottom of the page it says, "Issued Per FAA AD 95-26-05", there is no page number.

 

 

Ok just looked it up. Apparently this AD was rescinded,...a long ass time ago! Oh' well it seemed like a good recommendation, as well as the one at the back of the Normal Proceedures section dealing with mast bumping and rotor stall (which was also rescinded)?

Edited March 30, 2016 by r22butters

[ridethisbike]

_{well, last week I was totally unconfortable in flght on the montains when going to a fly in. There was 2 others r44's private pilots with their helicos, and both told me that they still ran 100 kts under that windy/gusting condition. (Gusting was 22 knots)}

 

_{So it is looking that ''inconfortable flight'' not mean the same for all pilots. I think that my tolerance to the turbulences is lower than average pilots. When I ear the blades flapping with vertical speed I'm not confortable at all. BTW, what is causing that blades flapping sound at CRUISE speed?}

 

 

_{What kind of heavy conditions can lead to a tailboom strike?}

 

 

_thanks.

 

Winds are absolutely a subjective thing. What one person considers bumpy and uncomfortable, another will consider it fairly smooth.

 

I know when I first started instructing, I was hesitant to go out in anything over 25 kts (in the 44). After a few hundred hours of flying and having to deal with winds, my personal limit has gone up. The highest wind I've flown in (that was bumpy) was something like 22 gusting to 33 with the peak winds up to 36 kts (I've had 40 knot constant winds at altitude that were smooth as butter). It was a rough ride, no doubt, but I was able to keep it fairly close to 100 kts indicated. As long as the customer is ok with it, I'll go, but I always give them the option and make sure they know it isn't going to be a smooth ride.

 

Ultimately, it's up to you on when you slow down or discontinue the flight. Winds and turbulence aren't something that most people are automatically ok with. You have to build up your comfort and confidence levels with them. Just make sure you're safe about it.

[iChris]

In the R44 POH it is indicated to reduce the airspeed to 60-70 knots in turbulence.....

 

So how to know when the turbulences are enough strong to require a speed reduction?

 

Does any kind of turbulence require a certain amount of reduction?

 

thanks.

 

Judgment comes with time as you gain knowledge and experience. The levels of turbulence are defined in your Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM) under paragraph 7-1-23 in table 7-1-10. The levels are; light, moderate, severe, and extreme. These levels are described in that table. Midway of moderate and above, you should consider reducing airspeed.

 

The required judgment, knowledge, and experience covers a broad range of desirable behaviors and abilities. It is not simply a measure of skill or technique, but also a measure of a pilot’s awareness of the aircraft, the environment in which it operates, and of his own capabilities. Time will best answer to your progression as an aviator.

 

https://youtu.be/hNRCa8Unotg

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by iChris

[Longsled]

My concerns was about having a mechanical failure resulting in a high load or having a kind of blades strike on the tailcone. The kind of flight I make is 99% from 200 to 500' agl in the montains, so I generally have mechanical turbulence. The POH say the speed need to be reduced when turbulences occur, but It is hard to find when you reach the level where you need to reduce. Honnestly, my tolerance is not very high I think...

 

If I can remove the stress related to a possible mechinical failure, it will make me more confortable.

 

I'm a low timer, only 250hrs but all in the last 15 months.

[Jaybee]

rule of thumb I was given when I was in your shoes - 10 kts gust spread in a teetering rotor system

 

directly to your question - if you have to over ride the governor to maintain RRPM and prevent overspeeds it might be time to call it a day

[iChris]

My concerns was about having a mechanical failure resulting in a high load or having a kind of blades strike on the tailcone.

 

The kind of flight I make is 99% from 200 to 500' agl in the montains, so I generally have mechanical turbulence.

 

The POH say the speed need to be reduced when turbulences occur, but It is hard to find when you reach the level where you need to reduce. Honnestly, my tolerance is not very high I think...

 

If I can remove the stress related to a possible mechinical failure, it will make me more confortable.

 

I'm a low timer, only 250hrs but all in the last 15 months.

 

Worry and stress about possible mechanical failure. Unable to read and understand the RFM (POH). Weak in the operational area of wind & turbulence. Here you are, flying 200 to 500 feet AGL in the mountains, and you can’t think this through and figure it out on your own. Sounds like you’re another product of substandard Initial flight training. They just passed you through and took your money. Seek out a reputable flight school/instructor and get some remedial flight training before you kill yourself.

Edited April 5, 2016 by iChris

[Guest pokey]

 

Worry and stress about possible mechanical failure. Unable to read and understand the RFM (POH). Weak in the operational area of wind & turbulence. Here you are, flying 200 to 500 feet AGL in the mountains, and you can’t think this through and figure it out on your own. Sounds like you’re another product of substandard Initial flight training. They just passed you through and took your money. Seek out a reputable flight school/instructor and get some remedial flight training before you kill yourself.

 

 

this comment is sooo unlike you, i can't even imagine why a comment like this would come from (what i have seen of you prior) a person like you. Sounds like you been sniffin' bugspray? them avbugs get pretty nasty this time of year.

[Longsled]

 

Worry and stress about possible mechanical failure. Unable to read and understand the RFM (POH). Weak in the operational area of wind & turbulence. Here you are, flying 200 to 500 feet AGL in the mountains, and you can’t think this through and figure it out on your own. Sounds like you’re another product of substandard Initial flight training. They just passed you through and took your money. Seek out a reputable flight school/instructor and get some remedial flight training before you kill yourself.

 

 

ok your comments don't help me at all, but thanks for your advise!

 

If you had survived as a passenger in a commercial flight crash due to a mechanical failure a couple of years ago, and been a mechanical engineer, and having not many confidence in those light built helicopter, you may sometimes want to have some general opinions about the real capacity of those birds in the real world to built back your confidence in flight, specially in a part of the country where helicopters are pretty rares.

 

I'm a also a float plane pilots with thousands of hours in the bush.............so I know how to fly.....

 

For your information, Aviation safety is WAY more regulated in Canada than US, so both my plane and helicopter pilot licenses are not comming from the sky.

 

My interrrogation about those machine should reval that I'm not flying blind and I' searching to be more informed than necessary on the thing I'm still learning to fly!

[Longsled]

[r22butters]

Have you been to the Robinson Safety Course? Have you had any specific "mountain training"?

 

I've had my ass knocked around many times flying Robby and I've never had a problem deciding when to slow down.

 

Perhaps they should re-print that old AD?

[iChris]

_{well, last week I was totally unconfortable in flght on the montains when going to a fly in. There was 2 others r44's private pilots with their helicos, and both told me that they still ran 100 kts under that windy/gusting condition. (Gusting was 22 knots)}

 

_{So it is looking that ''inconfortable flight'' not mean the same for all pilots. I think that my tolerance to the turbulences is lower than average pilots.}

 

_{When I ear the blades flapping with vertical speed I'm not confortable at all. BTW, what is causing that blades flapping sound at CRUISE speed?}

 

 

_{What kind of heavy conditions can lead to a tailboom strike?}

 

 

The characteristics of blade flapping with respect to a two bladed rotor system should’ve all been covered during your awareness training at least. Knowledge is the best cure for fear.

 

Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 73—Robinson R-22/R-44 Special Training and Experience Requirements

 

(3) Awareness training must be conducted by a certified flight instructor who has been endorsed under paragraph [5] of this section and consists of instruction in the following general subject areas:

 

(i) Energy management;

(ii) Mast bumping;

(iii) Low rotor RPM (blade stall);

(iv) Low G hazards; and

(v) Rotor RPM decay.

 

Also see prior post on the subject at the follow links:

 

• See Reference Post - Tail Boom Strike with Main Rotor

 

• Why no lower than 57 kts in moderate + turbulence?

 

• Robinson R22 Blade behavior in flight

 

• Blade Slap is also known technically as Blade Vortex Interaction (BVI)

 

• Turbulence & Low G

 

 

ok your comments don't help me at all, but thanks for your advise!

 

If you had survived as a passenger in a commercial flight crash due to a mechanical failure a couple of years ago, and been a mechanical engineer, and having not many confidence in those light built helicopter, you may sometimes want to have some general opinions about the real capacity of those birds in the real world to built back your confidence in flight, specially in a part of the country where helicopters are pretty rares.

 

I'm a also a float plane pilots with thousands of hours in the bush.............so I know how to fly.....

 

For your information, Aviation safety is WAY more regulated in Canada than US, so both my plane and helicopter pilot licenses are not comming from the sky.

 

My interrrogation about those machine should reval that I'm not flying blind and I' searching to be more informed than necessary on the thing I'm still learning to fly!

 

Oh yeah, I thought I heard you coming by your prior comments, you’re another one of those guys with a little bit of airplane time that thinks they have this helicopter thing all figured out; however, you don’t.

 

“WAY more regulated”; Yes, that’s the big government solution to most problems, increase funding, expand the program, and broaden regulatory authority. However, none of that seems to addressed the lack of competent training ongoing.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2016 by iChris

[Longsled]

I've received the RHC POH update 2 weeks ago and I'm aware of it and it is precicely why I have posted a question here about speed limitation; it is not clear for me what it is indicated!

 

Previsously to my R44-2, I have did my training and owned a H-300C, and the feeling in the 44 is totally different. I'm also doing training in a B206 when possible.

 

The new -7 blades flapping noise at cruise speed when turbulence occur is, from my opinion, way more louder than the 300 and the 206, and I don't like that. My question was does a cruise speed reduction is required when flapping sound happening at cruise speed. If nobody has encountered problems then there is no limitations, end of the strory I have my answer.

 

I'm speaking french and trying to do my best to write in english, Maybe all my questions was asked too quickly and badly formulated, but for sure it was the last one for a long time here.

[SBuzzkill]

When the turbulence gets to the mid/high side of moderate I reduce airspeed. This gives a good power setting allowing me to move the cyclic without worry of over-torque, reduces stress on the airframe and in my opinion makes for a smoother ride.

[Goldy]

When the turbulence gets to the mid/high side of moderate I reduce airspeed. This gives a good power setting allowing me to move the cyclic without worry of over-torque, reduces stress on the airframe and in my opinion makes for a smoother ride.

Exactly why I slow down....reduces stress on the aircraft and lowers the possibility of low G. I flew an R44 in a 52 knot Santa Ana wind thru Cahuenga pass one night. Had to turn off my landing light cause the back and forth was making me dizzy on landing. It can get bumpy on the back side of mountains, which is why you don't fly immediately behind them. Get some altitude, it's nicer above the mountain tops than above the tree tops.The machine can usually take a lot more than the pilot flying it. While mechanical issues do occur, well maintained Robinsons really don't have a lot of mechanical issues. And yes, an R44 is a lot different than a S300 or a B47.

[Longsled]

I have hired a commercial pilot last week end to come with me in the montains and show me where are the limits. we did a 3 hours flight to the cabin in the montains.

 

here is a video we did in a previous trip. It show the everage wheater and ceiling we have all the time here. I don't know if there is exist many flight schools that provide training for that kind of flights, It is pretty different that flying around the airport in town.

 

So It is why I continue my learning process with expercied pilots in real life conditions.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaRT1cvZmrs

[r22butters]

Certainly is pretty there.

[Jaybee]

My concerns was about having a mechanical failure resulting in a high load or having a kind of blades strike on the tailcone. The kind of flight I make is 99% from 200 to 500' agl in the montains, so I generally have mechanical turbulence. The POH say the speed need to be reduced when turbulences occur, but It is hard to find when you reach the level where you need to reduce. Honnestly, my tolerance is not very high I think...

 

If I can remove the stress related to a possible mechinical failure, it will make me more confortable.

 

I'm a low timer, only 250hrs but all in the last 15 months.

 

 

 

 

ok your comments don't help me at all, but thanks for your advise!

 

If you had survived as a passenger in a commercial flight crash due to a mechanical failure a couple of years ago, and been a mechanical engineer, and having not many confidence in those light built helicopter, you may sometimes want to have some general opinions about the real capacity of those birds in the real world to built back your confidence in flight, specially in a part of the country where helicopters are pretty rares.

 

I'm a also a float plane pilots with thousands of hours in the bush.............so I know how to fly.....

 

For your information, Aviation safety is WAY more regulated in Canada than US, so both my plane and helicopter pilot licenses are not comming from the sky.

 

My interrrogation about those machine should reval that I'm not flying blind and I' searching to be more informed than necessary on the thing I'm still learning to fly!

 

You are probably used to seeing a Vn diagram for an airplane such as this -

 

Helicopters do not load up from gust factors like an airplane does -

You can look up the design factors in CFR Part 29, going completely off memory Helicopters are +3G and -0.5G but since they don't load up like airplanes its really hard to get to 3G due solely to gust accelerations (turbulence)

 

Long story short, if you don't over control it you will be pretty safe in pretty bad conditions.

[Longsled]

That's is exactly the info I was looking for. Thanks.

[DizzyD]

Recently released NZ accident report examining this issue with regard to Robinson design...

 

http://www.taic.org.nz/ReportsandSafetyRecs/AviationReports/tabid/78/ctl/Detail/mid/482/InvNumber/2013-003/Page/0/language/en-US/Default.aspx?SkinSrc=[G]skins/taicAviation/skin_aviation