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Astro

Are the days of the career pilot numbered?

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Yes a sextant, sorry. Auto correct put down sexton, lol...look it up.

 

I'm sorry to hear about the whole flight engineer thing bro, maybe you should take that up with Boeing. I'm actually instructing a AF reserve KC-10 flight engineer, I'll pick his brain and get back to ya.

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Yes a sextant, sorry. Auto correct put down sexton, lol...look it up.

 

I'm sorry to hear about the whole flight engineer thing bro, maybe you should take that up with Boeing. I'm actually instructing a AF reserve KC-10 flight engineer, I'll pick his brain and get back to ya.

 

 

You're sorry to hear about flight engineers? What are you sorry to hear?

 

Flight engineers are currently used on a number of types of aircraft, from the C-130 to the DC-6 DC-10 to the B727, etc. They're not as plentiful as they used to be, and rather than the second seat position to move to a first officer job, nearly all are occupied by professional flight engineers.

 

What would I take up with Boeing?

 

You be sure to pick a student's brain. You'll be an expert by the time you're done, I'm sure.

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You should take it up with Boeing for just up and deciding to remove that 3rd seat for no reason like they did...I mean unless you wanna confess to all of that new technology kicked you out of a job, ohhhh and kippity clap clap you mentioned a whopping THREE air frames that still use an FE to this day

 

I dunno if anyone else is seeing this, but just a few posts ago you were writing off this emerging autonomous technology as if it would barely affect manned commercial heli operations. But maybe it seems your experience proves otherwise?

 

So you admit that at you are/where a certified flight engineeeeeeeer...but right now it seems you are not gainfully employed as one? Then you give me a hard time about going dual rated/ATP in a separate thread, but on it seems on this you come off as an experienced heli pilot?

 

.....dude are you projecting on me?

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You should take it up with Boeing for just up and deciding to remove that 3rd seat for no reason like they did...I mean unless you wanna confess all of that new technology kicked you out of a job, oh and kippity clap clap you mention a whopping THREE air frames that still use an FE to this day

 

 

 

I have nothing to take up with boeing. Nobody kicked me out of any job. You sound like a ten year old. Kippity clapp clapp? Is it past your bed time?

 

You're what, a student pilot, maybe a low time instructor, waffling on about trying to get to the airlines? Your experience level is zip. You don't know squat about what you're trying to say. I've experience as an international widebody captain. You? Not so much? You're going to pick your student's brain?

 

Technology hasn't put me out of a job, and it didn't put flight engineers out of a job. You attempted to say that navigation technology cost flight engineers their jobs, and it didn't. Economics did that; airlines demanded airframes that did away with the FE seat, which is why aircraft like the 747 Classic moved to the 747-400, eliminated the FE seat and made other changes. I'm not in the least concerned with "job loss," and it wasn't a technology-driven change. It was an economic demand on the part of the clients who purchased the aircraft. You wouldn't know about that. I'm a qualified FE. I don't make my living as a FE, but I make a very good living none the less, using several of my five FAA certificates. The FE is but one.

 

 

I dunno if anyone else is seeing this, but just a few posts ago you were writing off this emerging autonomous technology as if it would barely affect manned commercial heli operations. But maybe it seems your experience proves otherwise?

 

 

 

Of course you know others are reading this. Don't be an idiot.

 

Autonomous cockpits aren't going to have a major impact on pilot jobs. They will expand roles and provide additional opportunities to employ rotor and fixed wing aircraft in various roles, but wont' have a major impact on hiring, or employing of pilots. My experience doesn't illustrate anything to the contrary, but your belief that it does shows your ignorance. You really have no idea what you're talking about, and it appears that you have no inkling about how ignorant you are. You actually think you know what your'e saying, for which you should also be embarrassed, burt don't know enough to be embarrassed about that, either.

 

 

So you admit that at you are/where a certified flight engineeeeeeeer...but right now it seems you are not gainfully employed as one? Then you give me a hard time about going dual rated/ATP in a separate thread, but on it seems on this you come off as an experienced heli pilot?

 

 

 

Admit? No, I told you. I'm a certificated flight engineer (what do you think a "certified flight engineer "is?). I'm a number of other things, too, and make a very good living as a pilot.

 

You're not a dual-rated ATP. You're not an ATP. You don't meet the qualifications. I am an ATP, as are many of the other posters here.

 

No, I don't work as a FE. I work as a pilot. What's your point, bright spark?

 

 

.....dude are you projecting on me?

 

 

"Dude?" Really? Grow up.

Edited by avbug
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Guest pokey

it took a bit longer than i expected, but i knew the 747 was gonna come up sooner or later,,,, and there i was, buzzin' along at twice the speed of sound, chasin' this one nasty mosquito that had eluded me my whole FE engineer career , but ? now I'M the captain and i'm,,,,,,,, awww maw ! i'm too sick to go to school today.

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Young man, don’t think about be in the last, think about being the first to take advantage of these new opportunities. If you think it through and position yourself correctly, you won’t have to limit yourself (don’t limit yourself) to being a single skill set pilot. Be in a position, if desired, to buy your own aircraft and fly when and where you want, think about it.

 

 

I appreciate your giving me a different perspective.

 

At the moment i'm struggling to save enough funds to go to flight school... It's such a daunting amount for me. Don't get me wrong though, i'm thankful to even be in a position to be able to put money aside towards something that is just a dream for most. Let's just say it's teaching me how to be super patient.

 

Dunno about ever owning my own aircraft though... Then again I thought I'd never make it to where I am today. So yes, I guess anything is possible as long as your open to having an adventure!

 

I just hope I get a good bit of stick and rudder time before too long :)

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"Paperless office." When computers were becoming an everyday common-place office tool, the need for hard copy was supposed to disappear. I print more paper every day than I used in a week before computers.

GPS. I have 2 and on-board data links of all kinds. I must still carry conventional charts (which do things that would require 4k screen), the only thing I can't do by sectional is tell you withing 3 meters where I was 10 seconds ago and digitize an approximation of an ETE. "Over there" and "in a couple minutes" work just as well. And 99% of my communication is spoken word, the equipment I flew in Vietnam could do the job.

Autopilots? Infrequently deployed for whatever reason. Kind of like the internal combustion engine and modern transportation, autopilot technology will have to be ubiquitous before you'll see UAVs "in every garage".

 

There will continue to be career helicopter pilots. UAVs will develop and be used in ways that are not obvious at present and eventually enter what I see as the conventional helo market. It might happen more quickly than I think- right after the paperless office.

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IMO technology has the potential to kill lots of jobs (well, some jobs were effectively killed, like charriot drivers or phone operators). But it doesn't kill that many jobs - instead, technology increases productivity.

 

What I accomplish in a single day, nowadays, is about the same I would take a week (or more) to get in the 70's. The profit I generate to my employer is much higher than what used to be decades ago.

 

Well, speaking about helicopters: I'm a computer engineer, and believe me: I'm quite sure I would never fly inside a computer-controlled helicopter, unless it had a manual override and a rated pilot behind the controls (could be myself! :)).

 

Another problem with multirotors (aka "drones") is that they are fully dependent on electronics to maintain control. If one loses power, it will not be controllable, nor will autorotate. It will fall like Newton's apple. Simply like this.

 

Cheers!

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FE jobs have obviously dwindled but airlines still operate with 2 up front……. No signs of that changing anytime soon.....

 

Shoot, the Starship Enterprise needed a flight crew to voyage around space and that’s in the future…..

 

On average, I too have to print about 15 pages before I fly.....

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With advances in RVSM airspace allowing 2,000' vertical separation to be reduced to 1,000,' traffic congestion increased. RVSM requires autopilot use and must be individually certified for each aircraft that operates in RVSM. Despite advances in automation, the number of jobs increased along with the traffic increase.

 

For those of us who have flown Cat II and Cat III approaches with autoland, the technology is certainly there to program and fly the procedure on autopilot to a touchdown and stop on the runway (with autobrakes). I've done it. Anyone who has done it, however, understands very well just why the pilot is there.

 

Increases in automation and computer use in the operation of aircraft tend to increase the number of jobs necessary, not decrease them, in aircraft operations.

 

I've flown ISR missions alongside Reapers and Predators and other advanced UAV traffic; the footprint for my operations were considerably smaller than that of the UAV's. The manned assets were also more successful. The duration of the flights were shorter; UAV's remained on station longer, but manned assets had a higher success rate, especially for capturing events and coverage that the UAV's missed.

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Until Air Force One becomes an UAV, I don't believe that we have too much to worry about. Especially if we carry passengers. Some jobs like aerial application, it may be quite appropriate to use an UAV. Others that require a high level of situational awareness and a feel for the machine, like external load, it may be inappropriate to use an UAV.

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One of my fellow VertRef poster mentioned compensation and security.

I hope you aren't using my experience as an example.

I have had 3 fixed wing and 4 rotary wing jobs since my start in commercial aviation over 20 years ago.

That's not including side jobs and contracting to help make ends meet.

As for compensation fixed wing was marginal and rotary was worse.

Living the dream.

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Until Air Force One becomes an UAV, I don't believe that we have too much to worry about. Especially if we carry passengers. Some jobs like aerial application, it may be quite appropriate to use an UAV. Others that require a high level of situational awareness and a feel for the machine, like external load, it may be inappropriate to use an UAV.

Ag doesn't require high situational awareness or a feel for the machine? One with that mindset flying ag would become an xmas present wraped in wires. Probably witha few drift claims on top of that.

 

Just sayin'

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Ag requires high situational awareness, fixed wing or rotor.

 

UAV's in ag work presently are for crop surveillance and inspection, not for aerial application.

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It began a long time ago, when a great deal of aerial application fell to the ground rigs. The ground rigs lost a lot of their work to farmers who turned to chemigation, applying chemicals in irrigation water, along with fertilizers, etc.

 

It still takes someone with expertise to examine the crops, make chemical recommendations, and in many cases apply them. Further, there are many places where the guy that's been on site for 20 years is still considered the "new guy" to the locals, and they'd rather have the work done by someone they trust.

 

Bringing in unmanned assets won't just be met with resistance from pilots, but also from the end user farmers, too.

 

Where unmanned assets are over a field or fire or some place else, there are additional technicians, remote pilots, and others who will be hired to keep that equipment operating.

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There was a job ad recently for AG ground crew (with pilot possibilities in the future) that I was considering applying to? Then I thought (especially after reading that article) that 2 years from now when I'm "ready" to climb into the cockpit, there might not be a cockpit to climb into anymore?!

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Astro- with that thought, why get into any form of flying. Or really, why any career? Our future is heading to automation.

 

As far as drones spraying, it'll be a long long time before the pilot is gone. The RMAX in the article has been around along time. The article states 25 years. There old videos on youtube of it spraying rice patties.

 

A jetranger typically carries 90-100 gal loads. Bigger aircraft used like hueys and a lot of planes might carry closer to the ballpark of 200 gal loads

 

This thing is small. It holds 16 liters of chemical. That's just over 4 gal. Typical aerial application goes on at 2, 5, 10 gallons/acre. With everything in between and more. We do some at 17.5 gal/ac and some stuff goes on at 20 gal. Ground sprayers use a lot more water in their mix to get coverage and spray at 20-100 gal/ac. This thing won't hold even 1 ac worth of material. .

 

Granted this thing sprays a concentrate, alot of chemical require a lot of coverage to be effective. It depends on the pest and how it works. The article says its spraying fungicide on grapes. I assume its something that gets taken in by the plants and translocted through the plant to stop the desease. Full coverage not needed.

 

The Rmax will be great for small acre farms with sensitive borders. Like houses, neighborhoods, and organics next door. We turn down a hand full of work because towns have been built up on all sides of some farms with suburban neighborhoods on all borders. It flys slow and can be real precise. Perfect for these places. No way it can keep up with the amount of work that gets done around the country. It has it's place but like everything else, it'll be a long time before the drone fully replaces pilots.

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Astro- with that thought, why get into any form of flying. Or really, why any career? Our future is heading to automation.

Since you put it that way I think I'll just become a mechanic, since our robotic overlords will most definitely keep those of us around who can fix and maintain them!

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I've never had a shortage of maintenance work. Nor of flying. Or other duties. Or employers. Maintenance qualification isn't a bad thing to get; even if you don't take work that uses it, it will enhance your resume, and may open some doors, and if you do find yourself out of work (and you've invested in some experience and in tools), it will provide you continued employment.

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There has been a second Tesla crash while running in autonomous mode and a cry from the alphabet auto clubs and at least a few congress critters asking that the mode be disabled. One of the tesla crashes had the "driver" watching videos and not paying attention to the road.

What happens when one of these autonomous aircraft crashes taking out people on the ground or a plane load of passengers?

While technology is nice to have, autonomous vehicles are not yet ready for prime time.

And do not use a drone helicopter as an example. Those are ground based controlled. The closest we have to autonomous aircraft are the fms systems that go from runway to runway. The first officer will get replaced by the fms once the airlines decide he's no longer needed. The pilot will remain for many years to come.

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