Arkansas Helicopter Flight Training

[james28]

Yesterday I took my first intro flight here at their Springdale, Arkansas facility with Chief Pilot Austin Riley. (Hi Austin if you're reading)

I know absolutely nothing about flight schools as this is the only one I've ever been to. Does anyone have any knowledge of the quality of their operation and personnel?

 

They do all of their instructing out of R44's and when I asked why they don't use any R22's I was told it's because they're unsafe for students compared to an R44 and they were in fact never meant to be used for flight training. Does this sound correct? I didn't think so as the R22 is essentially the number 1 helicopter for flight training. They do offer a good rate, $380 for 10 hour blocks of instruction in the R44. But that's still more than most R22 rates, I do believe.

 

Moreover since all my hours would be in the 44 I would still be short the 50 hours R22 needed to be able to teach in the R22 further down the line. Unless I lucked into a school that needed only an R44 instructor.

Link to School:

http://www.arhelicopters.com/

Thoughts? Opinions? Complaints? Please let me hear them. Thanks!

[r22butters]

$380 an hour for a frickin' cadet!? If they want to replace the 22 with that piece of sh*t they're gonna have to lower the price,...A LOT!

[r22butters]

Just noticed the word "Nonrefundable" after each of their pricing options!

 

RUN DUDE, RUN!!!!!!!

[james28]

https://www.verticalmag.com/features/r44-cadet-a-bigger-better-trainer/

This paints a pretty solid image of the R44 Cadet.

[r22butters]

https://www.verticalmag.com/features/r44-cadet-a-bigger-better-trainer/

This paints a pretty solid image of the R44 Cadet.

 

I have over 600 hours in the R22, I did both Private and Commercial training in it,...I have even done touchdown autos in it! I'm 5'11" between 190 and 200 lbs and at no time during my training (or since) have I ever thought to myself, I wish I was in a "safer" helicopter!

 

No, the R22 was not designed as a trainer, but it handles the task beautifully!

[Bonzo828]

I don't know anything about this flight school other than what you have posted here. I see several red flags . I would find a different school.

[Hand_Grenade_Pilot]

Yesterday I took my first intro flight here at their Springdale, Arkansas facility with Chief Pilot Austin Riley. (Hi Austin if you're reading)

I know absolutely nothing about flight schools as this is the only one I've ever been to. Does anyone have any knowledge of the quality of their operation and personnel?

 

They do all of their instructing out of R44's and when I asked why they don't use any R22's I was told it's because they're unsafe for students compared to an R44 and they were in fact never meant to be used for flight training. Does this sound correct? I didn't think so as the R22 is essentially the number 1 helicopter for flight training. They do offer a good rate, $380 for 10 hour blocks of instruction in the R44. But that's still more than most R22 rates, I do believe.

 

Moreover since all my hours would be in the 44 I would still be short the 50 hours R22 needed to be able to teach in the R22 further down the line. Unless I lucked into a school that needed only an R44 instructor.

Link to School:

http://www.arhelicopters.com/

Thoughts? Opinions? Complaints? Please let me hear them. Thanks!

Stay away from that 'school'. Obviously the business is primarily built around tours, charters and surveying with a bit of flight training on the side. There is absolutely no reason to use an R44 for flight training; you will be wasting money and, as you mentioned, kill your chances of getting hired at the majority of flight schools in the US.

 

While inconvenient, receiving quality flight training often requires students to move out of state. Pick a school that provides quality over location.

 

The R22 is not ideal for flight training, but it's what most schools are using, so build the majority of your time in that. The S300 does very well as a trainer (it was specifically built for this purpose) but fewer and fewer schools are using them. If you have the opportunity to train in both, do so. But keep most of your time in the R22.

[Boatpix]

You took your first flight but you already have 262 posts on this forum as James28?

[james28]

You took your first flight but you already have 262 posts on this forum as James28?

Hah that's correct, BoatPix. You'll see 259 of my posts are from a decade ago when I was a senior in High School and all I wanted in the world was to fly. Life took me another direction for a bit but now I'm back here. A veritable old man now.

[Boatpix]

Okay, the posts from a decade ago and life taking you in another direction makes sense. Notice I asked the question for clarification and it didn't have any attitude. As other posters have pointed out that low rate on a local R44 and the lack of another type helicopter has positives and negatives. If you can stay in your job and in your current bed and commute there by your current car and get your private rating done quickly I think that is the way to go. Start by buying www.HeliGround.com which will quickly teach you aviation terms and prepare you for the written faster and cheaper than reading the books or taking classes. I'm sure you've seen videos on flying but this gives you the ABC and 123 of the theory in a clear and concise package and you'll learn A LOT quicker if you know the theory before you get in the helicopter. After you get the private rating contact me as we are $250/hour for the R22 and have free housing in Florida where it's warm and we fly a lot as it's going to start to get cold in Arkansas soon. After the private helicopter rating you'll need 90 hours x $250/hour is $22,500 to get the commercial helicopter rating. An operation that focuses on commercial operations might have insurance that requires a lot more hours in that R44 than you can afford (likely 500 or 1000 as i see on the website an advertisement for an insurance broker i know to have inexpensive rates but higher minimum hours). Unless you seek out a school which would have a more expensive insurance policy to instruct there might not be room for a job there until after you've spent all your money and find you are stuck trying to find an operation like mine. I have three R44's and the policies require more hours total time than those of the R22's. Perhaps you don't want a job flying a helicopter and the point is moot but my experience is all students dream of getting paid to fly.

[james28]

Yes I would love a career flying a helicopter. I don't have the financial background to be able to pay for training just for kicks. I have heard good things about helicopterground.com and will most likely subscribe at some point and start the book learning process. Do you do instruction at the $250 rate or is that simply the time building rate. Free housing is a nice perk!

[Boatpix]

www.HeliGround.com is the program I recommended to learn the basics like in a part 141 school type syllabus online. We have a dormant R22 in Mobile, Alabama and it can be up to you in half a day if you contact me.

[james28]

www.HeliGround.com is the program I recommended to learn the basics like in a part 141 school type syllabus online. We have a dormant R22 in Mobile, Alabama and it can be up to you in half a day if you contact me.

Thank you Tom, I'll be in touch.

[RotorDude_Riley]

Hey guys! I wanted to take a moment to address some of the comments that were left here. I feel as though, while everyone will certainly have their own opinions, I can respectfully provide some clarity and hopefully answer some questions about ARH.

First off, I am in fact “Austin”, the Chief Pilot at ARH. I conducted Josh’s intro flight. I’m happy that Josh reached out to ARH for this experience, and am honored to have provided it.

I’m going to address the comments here, one by one:

 

“$380 an hour for a frickin' cadet!? If they want to replace the 22 with that piece of sh*t they're gonna have to lower the price,...A LOT! “

 

We operate two R44 Raven helicopters here. One is a Raven 1 and the other is a Raven II. We feel that $380/hour (includes fuel, oil, instructor, etc) is a great price for a Raven II (it’s an instrument trainer as well).

 

“Just noticed the word "Nonrefundable" after each of their pricing options!

RUN DUDE, RUN!!!!!!!”

 

You are absolutely correct- Our website does specify that the different payment options are nonrefundable. Please allow me to explain that further. Our own student and renters policy handbooks state that, in fact, students ARE entitled to a refund of money on account, BUT there is a caveat to that! You aren’t going to get refunded for a 10 hour block, in full, or in part, at the 10 hour block rate. What I mean is that a student can buy a 10 hour block at $380/hour, fly off 2 hours, and demand a refund for the remaining 8 hours at the 10 hour block rate. If you fly 2 hours, you are paying for two hours at the hourly rate. I hope that made sense. We are not, nor have we even been in the business of scamming people. We always do the right thing at ARH. We will always refund money when asked; however, every single student we have has been perfectly happy with their experience here and I have never seen a refund request.

 

“I have over 600 hours in the R22, I did both Private and Commercial training in it,...I have even done touchdown autos in it! I'm 5'11" between 190 and 200 lbs and at no time during my training (or since) have I ever thought to myself, I wish I was in a "safer" helicopter!

No, the R22 was not designed as a trainer, but it handles the task beautifully!”

 

Being an experienced R22 Instructor myself, I’ll tell you that I cannot disagree, nor agree with you. From the student’s side, there is nothing wrong with the R22. My personal opinion is that (as an instructor) it’s a less-than ideal trainer. I personally believe that there isn’t enough margin for error in it (especially at high-DA!). I think the R22 is a fabulous helicopter, but I won’t go so far as to say that it is a great trainer. It sure is cheap, but it’s just not the helicopter for ARH.

 

“I don't know anything about this flight school other than what you have posted here. I see several red flags . I would find a different school.”

You know, Bonzo, I can certainly respect your view on this. I would say the same thing, myself, had I not been so experienced with those “famous” flight schools. I’ve worked at a couple, and can tell you that the greed runs deep there. They’ll nickel and dime you for everything you’ve got, and forget about being respected and treated as a valuable customer there. There’s a reason they’re all failing, and I personally believe that it’s due to a lack of integrity. ARH is the greatest outfit I’ve worked for yet. I’m not saying we’re the most popular or decorated flight school in the nation, but my experience has made me glad to be a part of this team. I don’t doubt that our customers feel the same way.

I respect your viewpoint and am grateful for this forum for our colleagues and students to get advice.

 

“Stay away from that 'school'. Obviously the business is primarily built around tours, charters and surveying with a bit of flight training on the side. There is absolutely no reason to use an R44 for flight training; you will be wasting money and, as you mentioned, kill your chances of getting hired at the majority of flight schools in the US.”

 

Hand_Grenade- You’re absolutely correct about our “appearance”. We’re working hard to remedy that, and have started with a new website! We used to primarily focus on tours, charters, and commercial work. That being said, in the last two years the flight training aspect of ARH has become one of our primary business focuses- our website simply hasn’t caught up yet! We are an FAA approved 141 school now, and have a very capable facility for flight training.

You’ve got some good points here! We all need to think of the “mission” we are looking to equip ourselves for. Thanks for bringing that to the table. Here’s the way I look at it, and explain it to others. If you came to me for a tour job, fresh out of flight school, and had 210 hours (40 of which were in the R44 from your instrument training), I would probably tell you to go get more R44 time and then apply again. Remember, unless you want to be a flight instructor in the R22, you’re wasting your money by flying it too much. What do I mean by that? Well, most insurance companies look at the liability of a very low-time R44 pilot and it’s hard to get them insured. Furthermore, I need guys who are experienced with flying groups of people, or at least familiar with the CG loading ramifications of a 4-place helicopter. If you work for me, you will be dealing with rapidly changing CGs under a very short time-table on a daily basis. We need experienced R44 pilots. All of the other operators I have worked for share the same sentiment. Now, if you are wanting to be a flight instructor, you can get your time in the R22. Either way, if you do all your training in either you’ll have to satisfy the SFAR 73 requirements in the other.

 

In summary, I can certainly appreciate what you guys are trying to do here; but I think that ARH provides some of the best pricing in the nation on the R44 Raven II. It’s up to the student to decide if the capabilities of ARH match their needs. It’s not for me or anybody else to say what those needs are. I have found through my experiences – both in the helicopter and with being a part of the hiring process for the types of operations that I have conducted- that more R44 time is better than less. It all comes down to what your goals are. If you aren’t going to be a CFI, don’t even waste your time in the R22.

 

I certainly hope that I have respectfully provided some clarity and cleared up some assumptions “straight from the horse’s mouth”. We strive to provide high-quality flight-instruction here at ARH, and always do the right thing because it is the right thing to do. I wish you all luck and safety in your rotary careers!

Austin

Chief Pilot

Arkansas Helicopters

[r22butters]

 

We operate two R44 Raven helicopters here. One is a Raven 1 and the other is a Raven II. We feel that $380/hour (includes fuel, oil, instructor, etc) is a great price for a Raven II (its an instrument trainer as well).

 

Its a good price if you want to get your instrument rating in a 44, but to do all your training in one, seems expensively risky to me for a career minded pilot?

 

Being an experienced R22 Instructor myself, Ill tell you that I cannot disagree, nor agree with you. From the students side, there is nothing wrong with the R22. My personal opinion is that (as an instructor) its a less-than ideal trainer. I personally believe that there isnt enough margin for error in it (especially at high-DA!). I think the R22 is a fabulous helicopter, but I wont go so far as to say that it is a great trainer. It sure is cheap, but its just not the helicopter for ARH.

Learn in the R22, teach in the S300. That's hard to do. I'd be nervous teaching in a 22, but I'm glad I learned in it!

 

Youve got some good points here! We all need to think of the mission we are looking to equip ourselves for. Thanks for bringing that to the table. Heres the way I look at it, and explain it to others. If you came to me for a tour job, fresh out of flight school, and had 210 hours (40 of which were in the R44 from your instrument training), I would probably tell you to go get more R44 time and then apply again. Remember, unless you want to be a flight instructor in the R22, youre wasting your money by flying it too much. What do I mean by that? Well, most insurance companies look at the liability of a very low-time R44 pilot and its hard to get them insured. Furthermore, I need guys who are experienced with flying groups of people, or at least familiar with the CG loading ramifications of a 4-place helicopter. If you work for me, you will be dealing with rapidly changing CGs under a very short time-table on a daily basis. We need experienced R44 pilots. All of the other operators I have worked for share the same sentiment. Now, if you are wanting to be a flight instructor, you can get your time in the R22. Either way, if you do all your training in either youll have to satisfy the SFAR 73 requirements in the other.

 

Back when I was in school most CFI's who had butt-loads of 44 time (like 200 hours or so) got it from instrument instruction. From my own instrument training (in a 44) the instructor touched the controls maybe five minutes tops in forty hours of dual. Doesn't sound like that's the kind of experience that would be beneficial to an R44 tour operator,...but what ya gonna do?

 

It all comes down to what your goals are. If you arent going to be a CFI, dont even waste your time in the R22.

 

If you're not going to be a CFI (and you're not coming out of the military with an already fat logbook) then the odds of finding work are astronomically against you (took me ten years)! Sure there's R44 tours, but they generally want 500 hours total and 50-100 hours R44,...and good luck getting that without being a CFI!,...and even if you do, they still (in my experience) prefer CFI's!

 

Anyway, I'm not a CFI, and if I didn't have R22 time, I'd be flying a Piper Cub!

 

The R44 is for low budget tours and rich (but not too rich) private owners! I have just over 100 hours in the 44 I'd be more than happy to sell to anyone,...just five bucks, a pizza, and a six-pack!

[Hand_Grenade_Pilot]

Hey guys! I wanted to take a moment to address some of the comments that were left here. I feel as though, while everyone will certainly have their own opinions, I can respectfully provide some clarity and hopefully answer some questions about ARH.

First off, I am in fact “Austin”, the Chief Pilot at ARH. I conducted Josh’s intro flight. I’m happy that Josh reached out to ARH for this experience, and am honored to have provided it.

I’m going to address the comments here, one by one:

 

“$380 an hour for a frickin' cadet!? If they want to replace the 22 with that piece of sh*t they're gonna have to lower the price,...A LOT! “

 

We operate two R44 Raven helicopters here. One is a Raven 1 and the other is a Raven II. We feel that $380/hour (includes fuel, oil, instructor, etc) is a great price for a Raven II (it’s an instrument trainer as well).

 

“Just noticed the word "Nonrefundable" after each of their pricing options!

RUN DUDE, RUN!!!!!!!”

 

You are absolutely correct- Our website does specify that the different payment options are nonrefundable. Please allow me to explain that further. Our own student and renters policy handbooks state that, in fact, students ARE entitled to a refund of money on account, BUT there is a caveat to that! You aren’t going to get refunded for a 10 hour block, in full, or in part, at the 10 hour block rate. What I mean is that a student can buy a 10 hour block at $380/hour, fly off 2 hours, and demand a refund for the remaining 8 hours at the 10 hour block rate. If you fly 2 hours, you are paying for two hours at the hourly rate. I hope that made sense. We are not, nor have we even been in the business of scamming people. We always do the right thing at ARH. We will always refund money when asked; however, every single student we have has been perfectly happy with their experience here and I have never seen a refund request.

 

“I have over 600 hours in the R22, I did both Private and Commercial training in it,...I have even done touchdown autos in it! I'm 5'11" between 190 and 200 lbs and at no time during my training (or since) have I ever thought to myself, I wish I was in a "safer" helicopter!

 

No, the R22 was not designed as a trainer, but it handles the task beautifully!”

 

Being an experienced R22 Instructor myself, I’ll tell you that I cannot disagree, nor agree with you. From the student’s side, there is nothing wrong with the R22. My personal opinion is that (as an instructor) it’s a less-than ideal trainer. I personally believe that there isn’t enough margin for error in it (especially at high-DA!). I think the R22 is a fabulous helicopter, but I won’t go so far as to say that it is a great trainer. It sure is cheap, but it’s just not the helicopter for ARH.

 

“I don't know anything about this flight school other than what you have posted here. I see several red flags . I would find a different school.”

You know, Bonzo, I can certainly respect your view on this. I would say the same thing, myself, had I not been so experienced with those “famous” flight schools. I’ve worked at a couple, and can tell you that the greed runs deep there. They’ll nickel and dime you for everything you’ve got, and forget about being respected and treated as a valuable customer there. There’s a reason they’re all failing, and I personally believe that it’s due to a lack of integrity. ARH is the greatest outfit I’ve worked for yet. I’m not saying we’re the most popular or decorated flight school in the nation, but my experience has made me glad to be a part of this team. I don’t doubt that our customers feel the same way.

I respect your viewpoint and am grateful for this forum for our colleagues and students to get advice.

 

“Stay away from that 'school'. Obviously the business is primarily built around tours, charters and surveying with a bit of flight training on the side. There is absolutely no reason to use an R44 for flight training; you will be wasting money and, as you mentioned, kill your chances of getting hired at the majority of flight schools in the US.”

 

Hand_Grenade- You’re absolutely correct about our “appearance”. We’re working hard to remedy that, and have started with a new website! We used to primarily focus on tours, charters, and commercial work. That being said, in the last two years the flight training aspect of ARH has become one of our primary business focuses- our website simply hasn’t caught up yet! We are an FAA approved 141 school now, and have a very capable facility for flight training.

You’ve got some good points here! We all need to think of the “mission” we are looking to equip ourselves for. Thanks for bringing that to the table. Here’s the way I look at it, and explain it to others. If you came to me for a tour job, fresh out of flight school, and had 210 hours (40 of which were in the R44 from your instrument training), I would probably tell you to go get more R44 time and then apply again. Remember, unless you want to be a flight instructor in the R22, you’re wasting your money by flying it too much. What do I mean by that? Well, most insurance companies look at the liability of a very low-time R44 pilot and it’s hard to get them insured. Furthermore, I need guys who are experienced with flying groups of people, or at least familiar with the CG loading ramifications of a 4-place helicopter. If you work for me, you will be dealing with rapidly changing CGs under a very short time-table on a daily basis. We need experienced R44 pilots. All of the other operators I have worked for share the same sentiment. Now, if you are wanting to be a flight instructor, you can get your time in the R22. Either way, if you do all your training in either you’ll have to satisfy the SFAR 73 requirements in the other.

 

In summary, I can certainly appreciate what you guys are trying to do here; but I think that ARH provides some of the best pricing in the nation on the R44 Raven II. It’s up to the student to decide if the capabilities of ARH match their needs. It’s not for me or anybody else to say what those needs are. I have found through my experiences – both in the helicopter and with being a part of the hiring process for the types of operations that I have conducted- that more R44 time is better than less. It all comes down to what your goals are. If you aren’t going to be a CFI, don’t even waste your time in the R22.

 

I certainly hope that I have respectfully provided some clarity and cleared up some assumptions “straight from the horse’s mouth”. We strive to provide high-quality flight-instruction here at ARH, and always do the right thing because it is the right thing to do. I wish you all luck and safety in your rotary careers!

Austin

Chief Pilot

Arkansas Helicopters

 

 

You are so full of sh*t it borders on being comical. Don't act like you have a career oriented student's best interest in mind. 200 hours of R44 time is career suicide for any new pilot. Sure, they may be eligible to work at your outfit, but they will not be eligible to work at 99% of the other flight schools.

 

The only thing they will be qualified to do is fly an R44 doing random jobs that fall under Part 91.

 

So with that in mind, how many of your student do you actually hire? Even if you were able to hire 20% (which is probably much higher then the actual number) that leaves 80% of your students looking for a job without the proper qualifications.

 

Then look at the price difference. $380/hr for an R44, or $320/hr (or less) in the R22? Over the course of 200 hours that's a cost savings of atleast $12,000.

 

Is the R22 a great platform for training? No. Personally, I despise it. But it is the LOGICAL choice. To try and convince prospective students that doing all of their training a premium aircraft is a f*cking disgrace to the industry.

 

And the bit about the complexities of W&B for an R44? What a load of sh*t. It's 3 seats to keep track of mate. No rocket science involved to keep the chunky ones in the back and to try and avoid having two chunky people on the same side. Add the total weights and make sure you're under max gross. Don't exceed the seat limits. Bam, good to go. It does not take 200 hours of R44 time to figure that out.

[RotorDude_Riley]

 

 

You are so full of sh*t it borders on being comical. Don't act like you have a career oriented student's best interest in mind. 200 hours of R44 time is career suicide for any new pilot. Sure, they may be eligible to work at your outfit, but they will not be eligible to work at 99% of the other flight schools.

 

The only thing they will be qualified to do is fly an R44 doing random jobs that fall under Part 91.

 

So with that in mind, how many of your student do you actually hire? Even if you were able to hire 20% (which is probably much higher then the actual number) that leaves 80% of your students looking for a job without the proper qualifications.

 

Then look at the price difference. $380/hr for an R44, or $320/hr (or less) in the R22? Over the course of 200 hours that's a cost savings of atleast $12,000.

 

Is the R22 a great platform for training? No. Personally, I despise it. But it is the LOGICAL choice. To try and convince prospective students that doing all of their training a premium aircraft is a f*cking disgrace to the industry.

 

And the bit about the complexities of W&B for an R44? What a load of sh*t. It's 3 seats to keep track of mate. No rocket science involved to keep the chunky ones in the back and to try and avoid having two chunky people on the same side. Add the total weights and make sure you're under max gross. Don't exceed the seat limits. Bam, good to go. It does not take 200 hours of R44 time to figure that out.

 

Like I said- if you want to be a flight instructor in the R22, then train in the R22. If you want to fly commercial work in the R44, then train in the R44. It's that simple.

 

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I have mine. We'll continue to hire qualified, insurable candidates with R44 time and I wish you the best in your endeavors.

[r22butters]

Like I said- if you want to be a flight instructor in the R22, then train in the R22. If you want to fly commercial work in the R44, then train in the R44. It's that simple.

 

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I have mine. We'll continue to hire qualified, insurable candidates with R44 time and I wish you the best in your endeavors.

 

So then you hire 150 hour R44 trained commercial pilots? Does anyone else on this planet,...'cause I never found any!

[Hand_Grenade_Pilot]

 

Like I said- if you want to be a flight instructor in the R22, then train in the R22. If you want to fly commercial work in the R44, then train in the R44. It's that simple.

 

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I have mine. We'll continue to hire qualified, insurable candidates with R44 time and I wish you the best in your endeavors.

 

This is the problem. There are virtually no commercial R44 jobs available to a 200 hour pilot. They won't meet the Part 135 requirements. That eliminates every outfit that does passenger transport in an R44. A utility company (even one that uses an R44) will not hire a 200 hour pilot. Any other flight school using an R44 will also have R22's or S300's; their instructors will be cross-trained to teach and do Part 91 work (survey, photgraphy, etc) in the R44. They have no need for a pilot that can only fly an R44.

 

What you are selling is an education package destined for failure.

 

If you want to teach wealthy individuals who are only interested in obtaining their private license to fly for leisure, be my guest. If you up-sell them on the R44 because it is a superior helicopter to the R22, fine. But to tell career-oriented students that they are being trained to fly an R44 commercially is complete garbage and you deserve all the backlash that comes from doing so.