frmersshstdnt Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Youre getting out of touch when you say there hasnt been any "fraud" just because a court hasnt said so. There is tons of fraud that happens every day that never even goes to court. So I will continue to claim it is fraud. You also left out important aspects such as promising the MGIB and no refunds for most, the case is not even primarily about aggressive marketing as we all know that is borderline legal for the most part. I believe we will be very successful in court BTW, if not settled early. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klas Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 ...In any business there are certain costs. If you are thinking about signing a contract, you should do your due diligence prior to signing it. After you sign it....In my opinion....you are not entitled to a full refund....Even if you haven't set foot in a helo yet. There are still costs that SSH has had to put in to get to this point... Ridiculous - if I pay you to provide me certain services, and you fail to do so, then I am entitled to a refund. That's called consideration in contract law and a breach. And whatever it costs SSH to "put in to get to this point" of signing a contract, I doubt that it's near $60,000. ...Go to any bank, and ask for the same loan and they'd tell you to 'go away'. When a loan company gives a loan, they protect themselves. They also take payment for taking the risk in you. Its that old adage, don't borrow more than you can afford to repay...and don't borrow more than you can afford to lose. If the providing in full of monies to SSH in advance of their training from the student is, in fact, like providing a loan to SSH from the student as someone suggested, then your comment in response doesn't make sense in the way you want it to. The 'loan company' is the student. What protection does the student have from SSH?  Again, their protection for taking a risk in backing your loan.SSH 'backs' the loans? With what collateral? Are they a 'co-borrower' with the student? Then if the student defaults, does lender goes after SSH or do they go after the student? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtravis1 Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Ridiculous - if I pay you to provide me certain services, and you fail to do so, then I am entitled to a refund. That's called consideration in contract law and a breach. And whatever it costs SSH to "put in to get to this point" of signing a contract, I doubt that it's near $60,000.  I should have been more clear. I did say you are not entitled to a FULL refund. But I do agree that there should be some provision for some sort. This is also assuming that you are breaking the contract and not SSH. If SSH is in breach then it is a different story.  I guess in the end the courts will decide who was in breach and award damages accordingly. I have to wonder why their contract does not include a provision for settling disputes .....like arbitration....I think I read earlier that it did....again....dont sign a contract unless you intend to follow it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danter Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 I am not a professional pilot. I just fly for fun.  In business I am in that pays for my expensive hobby, I have heard more then one person complain badly about a company my business does work for all the time.  I have done work for this company for the past 6 years. They have never bounced a check, never been late on a payment and in general have been great to do work for....Yet I hear these other people still complain. I began to wonder why they have some much trouble out of them and I don't. Upon talking to them further, I realize that they are not very good businessmen.  The company has strict rules on payment application, insurance requirements, dates for turning in applications and so on. Their office runs a tight ship and if you don't have every "t" crossed and "i" dotted...you probably aren't getting paid or at least on time... The reason I bring this up is it just shows two sides of the coin. On one hand, you would hear from me that the company is great,...on the other hand, some would say they are crooks and they don't pay their bills. Sounds like two totally different companies doesn't it? But it is not... My view is that they operate a business. A very well organized one that has a large system with staff with specific jobs. If you are not holding up your end of the bargain....you may not work well within this system. I draw analogies between this company and SSH. Everything I saw of them had a feel of a well oiled machine. From the office staff, to the pilots, all the way down to the embossed toilet paper in the bathrooms. (That was a joke about the TP). In any business there are certain costs. If you are thinking about signing a contract, you should do your due diligence prior to signing it. After you sign it....In my opinion....you are not entitled to a full refund....Even if you haven't set foot in a helo yet. There are still costs that SSH has had to put in to get to this point. I don't believe what you say when if you sign the contract you should not get any money back. Many new pilots are in their early 20s from what I have seen. They don't know what they are getting into. Everybody makes changes. I'm sure the owners of schools make changes everyday. The school that I went to misrepresented us students with false advertising and promises that never came true. By the time the students realize what is going on there is no more money and you have to decide if you really want a career in helicopters. The student then says I have already spent $80,000 whats another $20,000. Then it is up to the school if they want to hire the student or not when or if they finish their training. It is called the long interview. It does not matter how much money you spend. It is your attitude. Schools come up with the strangest things to not hire a student. The president of universal in AZ has had over 20 years experience in this field. He has perfected his scam and so far no one can touch him. The only thing we have going for us who are in this situation is sites as this one where we hope some one is looking in to the school, sees our complaint and does not attend the school. So far it is working.  Our mission is not yet complete.           Well from an outsiders point of view that is how I see it. It is very easy to see how some may not fit in. And they usually turn out to be the ones with the biggest mouths. Another reason why you hear so many complaints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Fry, I think we have crossed wires here. The exact point I'm trying to make all along is the same as you have in post #25. My analogy with the Gourmet food shop is simply that I don't think that 'charging' above average is a malicious and unethical thing to do. If people are prepared to pay it, companies will charge it. As for the terms of the loan, I will admit that I may have misinterpreted your post and don't know enough about the specifics of the loan. So I retract my last on that topic. FYI, I am not in a CFI program. frmrsshstd, I am not 'trying to justify' any fraudulant activity. Fraud is bad! I am just not convinced that there has been the extent of fraud that you claim or any for that matter. Like I said, I trust the law court to determine that and convince me of all the fraudulant activity or not, because you have not. I have told you before that I have absolutely no connection with SSH, so give up with that line now! I don't know whether they are a bad school just as I don't know whether they are a good school. I am simply someone who will not 'blindly' follow advice (good or bad), and will not be a passive recipiant of information that is fed to me. So when someone comes and tells me that Company A is terrible, I need more than just long forum posts, and persistant ranting to convince me that they are right. Up to now, I still remain to be convinced. I have no quarrel with you. I hope that you get what you are rightly owed. If SSH are shown to have done wrong, then I hope they get duely punished. At the same time however, I have no arguement with SSH. If they have done nothing wrong, then I think it is wrong (and is illeagal) to discredit them publicly. Now, as has been pointed out, I am in fact guilty of perpetuating the very topic that I am trying to put to rest! So, if people are happy with my stated position, I have nothing further to add. I invite anyone to continue by PM if necessary. Happy! Joker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klas Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 ....again....dont sign a contract unless you intend to follow it.... Quite right - that could be said to SSH as well. BOTH parties have to provide services per the contract.  And if students are signing contracts with an org. like SSH that does all the bad things it supposedly is doing, then for SSH to NOT be in breach it would have to STATE that it will engage in said bad behavior in the contract, and then I would ask, why are students signing?  General question to all - do the students of SSH actually sign a training contract? I am aksing because at the two schools I have tained at, no contract was signed, other than a Rental Agreement in order to rent helos AFTER you get a license. Are contracts normal for training? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH CFI Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 I have ALL seen and read hundreds, if not thousands of SSH posts.... I have seen maybe TWO positive ones.I wonder why that is? I would think their CFI and students would stand up for their school / company, but I have yet to see any doing it. The people who love the place don't feel the need to come here, as they are all convinced that the people on the Internet don't know what they are talking about. I no longer work there, but I will say that a lot of the students do drink the kool-aid. I thought it was a good thing at first, but I figured out pretty quickly that the place is a mess. Oh well, life moves on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alasvegascfi Posted March 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Hey ex SSH CFI... I got a ? for ya. I just happen not to like SSH, but I do like Kool-aid...  Were you dissing kool-aid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fry Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 The people who love the place don't feel the need to come here, as they are all convinced that the people on the Internet don't know what they are talking about. My impression is rather different. The instructors are making more money and getting more flight time than they would get anywhere else so there's no incentive to rock the boat there. Get some time and then move on. The students have already committed their loan monies and they know they will probably not get any of it back. Who wants to admit they've been snookered, so they just press on hoping to make the best of a bad deal (and maybe hoping their wives don't realize how much they've spent). Any validity to any of that SSH CFI? Also a question. Is it true that SSH charges the students' account a fixed percentage of the total cost of the program each month? This would be over and above the charges for ground, sim and flight instruction. I've heard they charge about 6% a month. So, in effect, the longer a student is in the program the less their refund would be if they were to withdraw. Any truth to that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frmersshstdnt Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Also a question. Is it true that SSH charges the students' account a fixed percentage of the total cost of the program each month? This would be over and above the charges for ground, sim and flight instruction. I've heard they charge about 6% a month. So, in effect, the longer a student is in the program the less their refund would be if they were to withdraw. Any truth to that? No, They keep a statement of flight time recieved. They tack on $1200 for books, $3000 for ground school and $125/hr for flight sim time, then $3000-$10000 for contract cancellation. $285 per hour for dual R-22, $225 per hour for R-22 solo. R-44 unknown. So it doesnt matter how long youve been in the program, only how much flight time you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshclassaction Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Actually, the 6% rule is true, but it is not 6% it is 10%. All the new contracts for new SSH students state that if they drop out they will be charged 10% of the total loan value for every month they are in. It comes out to about 6000 a month. I have been contacted by one individual who did not have one hour in the R-22 and had been in the sim and ground school for 10 months and wanted to drop due to not having flown and paying in all that money. SSH informed him not only was he not getting a refund but he owed them the remaining balance of the loan. Now tell me how that makes any business sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frmersshstdnt Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 WoW! I didnt know about that! That is absolutely insane! How many versions of contracts do they have as of current???? That makes me sick, I need to go hurl now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notard Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 This is for alasvegascfi and yes your right there is a lot of contoversy with this school and how it does bussiness but I don't think you should cast blame at the Cfi's there just like you trying support themselves or famialy , and put there student through a broken program and get through to a job flying turbine's I know that you probably work at FFa but try not to put down somebody else for what there company mandate's for them i think it's cool that there is some competition in Town but let your students and bussiness make your Rep.. You want a hint on whats wrong in Vegas now -- potbellied pig and his puppet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skiddz Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 I should have been more clear. I did say you are not entitled to a FULL refund. But I do agree that there should be some provision for some sort. This is also assuming that you are breaking the contract and not SSH. If SSH is in breach then it is a different story.  I guess in the end the courts will decide who was in breach and award damages accordingly. I have to wonder why their contract does not include a provision for settling disputes .....like arbitration....I think I read earlier that it did....again....dont sign a contract unless you intend to follow it.... Their contract does, in fact, have an arbitration clause in it. It's laughable, but it's there. In a nutshell it says the parties will go before an arbitor that SSH will choose. Not entirely objective, huh? I asked no less than a half dozen times to go to a third party arbitor when trying to get my money back. Each time my request was ignored. Makes you wonder why they never took me up on it, doesn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alasvegascfi Posted March 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 notard..... I dont have anything against the instructors at SSH... What I do have a problem with, is the way they treat them.  You, as a "professional" can either go along with management and do what YOU KNOW is wrong.... OR You can find another company to work for.  There are PLENTY of employers looking for R-22 CFI's.  You should NOT change your personal views, integrity, practices, etc etc.... Just cause your boss wants you too. Yes they pay your bills, but where do YOU draw the line? You know flying a student once a week, if that, is totally wrong. I have a student right now... who came from SSH.  His check ride is in a week.... His fellow class mates, HAVE NOT EVEN DONE A SOLO YET. Any guess's why? I am talking his WHOLE class..... Because they are limited to the amount of flying they can do. ONCE A WEEK, if that... This student flys with me 3 times a week... Which I am sure you all will agree is about average.  YOU as a "professional" pilot should know, what your company is doing is wrong. YOU as a "professioanl" pilot should not put up with that and you ALL should stand up... (but we all know you wont) These students have 20 - 30 hrs in the sim, only 20 which they can count... and no actual flight time. That is plain crap... That is not right..... And if your a SSH instructor, you should be ashamed of yourself for allowing that to happen TO YOUR STUDENT. I know it happens.... I see it EVERY DAY.... I talk to the SSH students.... They want to come fly with me, but they can't.... WHY.. cause they will lose all of their money and they know it. That's sad... IF YOUR UNHAPPY... YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO LEAVE ANYTIME. Fine.. Charge me a 1,000 bucks for leaving........ Dont keep my 70,000 bucks... or chage me 30,000 cause I want to leave. SSH WILL FALL....... IT'S JUST A MATTER OF TIME...... It's just to bad for all of those students who will lose out...  The SSH CFI's just let it all happen. - That's even worse as they are supposed to be PROFESSIONALS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notard Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 To: alasvegascfi dude your right on all accounts and I'm not putting you down. It's almost like the Cfi there are in that same boat as there students. I think its great that your putting students through the program like they are suppose to, and as i said there need's to be some competition here . I was fortunate cause I had a CfI that did fly a lot with me and there was others that knew how important consitancy was, plus the management at that time knew that winter was the peak season to fly due to temp in the summer. t already put my 2 cents in for what I though was the reason ,It's that I have freinds that are CFI's there and I do feel bad for those involved............... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heli4fun Posted April 8, 2006 Report Share Posted April 8, 2006 Hey there alasvegascfi. Do you remember having a conversation about what consumers do versus what employees do? Well, I think enough has been said on this topic. How about starting a thread on the importance of good throttle management in the 300C? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidelis Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 I am a current student at Silver State Helicopters and I will speak up. I am a 160 hour pilot, having been in the program for just over a year. I am about to take my commercial and instrument check rides, followed shortly thereafter by the CFI. I have seen and heard the complaints in this forum and others. Considering the fact that I have been a full time police officer and small business owner throughout the program, I must be considered abnormal by some to be able to complete the program so short of the "up to 18 months" I was told when I first signed up. Combine that with the fact that I attend the Arlington, WA school, plagued by foul weather causing flight cancellations, I am a true freak of nature. The fact is, I have just had to do what Jerry Airola said needed to be done at the seminar I first attended. I'm amazed at how people complain and take statements out of context but fail to mention that among everything else, we were also told that becoming a professional helicopter pilot would mean hard work and diligence. How many of you want to be flown around by a pilot who was handed his license after slacking off and putting forth little to no effort? On the day I showed up for my first flight, my instructor told me, "You will have to work hard and make sacrifices. Study at home and when you're here, prepare to learn. If you don't, you won't make it, but if you do, you will do well." It doesn't get any more clear. My schedule is busy outside of Silver State, but SSH has also recognized the efforts I have made and worked with my schedule. Is it any surprise that you have to show some effort in order for SSH to work with you on getting you through the program in the timeframe given? Would anyone from any school bend over backwards for a student who doesn't work hard? Yes, students I know have left the program. Sometimes life happens, sometimes people fail to apply themselves, and some people simply have no business flying helicopters. For that, I am thankful that not everyone can be a Silver State Helicopter pilot. For those that do make the sacrifices, put forth the effort, and study hard, they are treated extremely well by Silver State. Every student I started with that has made these efforts has been treated extremely well. Silver State Helicopters is growing, and we are not just a flight school. We never have been just a school, and that is becoming more apparent all the time. Every week I hear about more commercial operations and I can attest to the fact that many of the instructors that were here when I first started have moved on to the commercial side of operations. We are even acquiring other operators and taking over their commercial operations. A student of Silver State is a good position to be in right now. I just went to the safety seminar at our headquarters in Las Vegas and I was amazed at the number of turbine helicopters we now have... Bell's, EC's, Huey's,.... these aren't being used for flight instruction folks. I am also amazed at how many outside commercial operators are trying to hire us away from Silver State. That says a lot about the quality of our pilots. There is life outside of Silver State Helicopters and I will not bad mouth any professional helicopter training program that produces results. I simply feel that if you are to comment on Silver State Helicopters that you should have the full spectrum of knowledge. Let's not put faith in the words of drop outs and pander to their complaints when chances are their own actions, or inactions, account for their lack of results. How many of you would put the word of a drop out before the word of the honor roll student when commenting about the quality of the teaching staff and instruction at your local institution of higher education? Please feel free to comment to me or email. No doubt I will receive numerous responses so my apologies in advance if I do not respond to every comment. I'm probably busy studying for my oral. Joshua Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fry Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 I am a current student at Silver State Helicopters and I will speak up. I am a 160 hour pilot, having been in the program for just over a year. I am about to take my commercial and instrument check rides, followed shortly thereafter by the CFI. On the day I showed up for my first flight, my instructor told me, "You will have to work hard and make sacrifices. Study at home and when you're here, prepare to learn. If you don't, you won't make it, but if you do, you will do well." It doesn't get any more clear. Yes, students I know have left the program. Sometimes life happens, sometimes people fail to apply themselves, and some people simply have no business flying helicopters. For that, I am thankful that not everyone can be a Silver State Helicopter pilot. For those that do make the sacrifices, put forth the effort, and study hard, they are treated extremely well by Silver State. Every student I started with that has made these efforts has been treated extremely well. You're absolutely right, it takes hard work and sacrifices...financial and personal...and that's just to get through the flight training. The easy part...the first 200 hours. The part of becoming a working pilot that a wannabe just has to purchase...for $70k plus interest. After that first 200 hours there will be four times that many hours required to actually get a real job. That additional 800 hour appenticeship is where the real hard work and sacrifice come in. First finding a CFI position and then having to survive on the pay for a year or two. Anyway, nothing new there right? They probably explained all that at the seminar. But what about those folks that leave the program? What did it cost them to take a flyer on "living their dream"? Because SSH charges 10% of the fixed price of the program per month wouldn't it cost $21k if they withdraw after 12 weeks? What would they have gotten for that $21k...three months of ground school and sim? And how many students do actually finish SSH's program? Even you admit you're an exception in being able to finish in the timeframe you are. Being a police officer probably doesn't hurt huh? Since JA has a special fondness for them. (Is this testimonial influenced by any special financing arrangement or employment incentive?) And doesn't SSH get all of the loan proceeds within a few months of a student beginning the program? Is that money set aside somewhere...with an escrow company maybe...to ensure that the company has the cash to fund its operations during the eighteen months or more the student is in training. I mean, hypothetically, what happens if the economy turns down later this year and SSH has trouble signing up new students? Or if it gets hit with a big judgment in one of the pending lawsuits? Will the cash dry up? Even if SSH has "earned" the student's money under its 10%-per-month arrangement ("earned" = doesn't have to refund) it still has an obligation to provide 200 hours of flight time doesn't it? It just seems to me that SSH has some risks for prospective students...typical students unlike yourself...that other flight schools don't necessarily have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brushfire21 Posted April 24, 2007 Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 I am also amazed at how many outside commercial operators are trying to hire us away from Silver State. That says a lot about the quality of our pilots. Somebody been drinking the spiked Kool-Aid provided my SSH Corporate me thinks......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADRidge Posted April 24, 2007 Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 Sounds like an advertisment to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellpilot Posted April 24, 2007 Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 Here we go again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! bellpilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brushfire21 Posted April 25, 2007 Report Share Posted April 25, 2007 Sounds like an advertisment to me. It did seem like an advertisement. I'm sure he was from SSH as he signed his name at the bottom per Jerry's instructions a few weeks back regarding his folks posting on forums. But it did seem a little overboard and too perfect to be honest. Oh well, time to move on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidelis Posted April 26, 2007 Report Share Posted April 26, 2007 Anyway, nothing new there right? They probably explained all that at the seminar. But what about those folks that leave the program? What did it cost them to take a flyer on "living their dream"? Because SSH charges 10% of the fixed price of the program per month wouldn't it cost $21k if they withdraw after 12 weeks? What would they have gotten for that $21k...three months of ground school and sim? And how many students do actually finish SSH's program? Even you admit you're an exception in being able to finish in the timeframe you are. Being a police officer probably doesn't hurt huh? Since JA has a special fondness for them. (Is this testimonial influenced by any special financing arrangement or employment incentive?) And doesn't SSH get all of the loan proceeds within a few months of a student beginning the program? Is that money set aside somewhere...with an escrow company maybe...to ensure that the company has the cash to fund its operations during the eighteen months or more the student is in training. I mean, hypothetically, what happens if the economy turns down later this year and SSH has trouble signing up new students? Or if it gets hit with a big judgment in one of the pending lawsuits? Will the cash dry up? Even if SSH has "earned" the student's money under its 10%-per-month arrangement ("earned" = doesn't have to refund) it still has an obligation to provide 200 hours of flight time doesn't it? It just seems to me that SSH has some risks for prospective students...typical students unlike yourself...that other flight schools don't necessarily have. I'm actually not an exception to completing the program in the timeframe allotted. Forgive me if the bit of sarcasm didn't show through in my earlier post. I put forth lots of hard work and made sacrifices to complete the program in this timeframe.... and this isn't a secret. It doen't matter what program you attend, SSH or otherwise; if you want to complete this much training in less than 18 months, you better be prepared to work hard. I know financing is a stickler for most people, if not all. I chose to use my home equity line of credit in lieu of the third party financing, an asset I have much more control over. I realize that not everyone has this option. I am not an expert on financing, but I know enough to read the fine print.  The financing that Silver State provides is through a third party. This actually means that you have some built in security measures as you are not giving the money directly to SSH. I don't claim it to be the best option as I really don't know. But I do know that before I sign a contract I know what it says, as did every other person who signed up for the program. To answer the question, SSH does have some risks... just like any other professional training program (flight training, college, technical school, etc.). If you don't finish the program, or even if you do but choose not to apply your skills in your future employment, you don't have a lot to show for it. Know anybody with a four year college degree who is now working in an unrelated field? I don't think being a police officer has either helped or hurt. To be honest, I'd be kidding myself if I thought that Jerry Airola even knew my name. He's a thousand miles away from where I am and I have never even spoken with him. I have truly worked hard and I have no special arrangements with anyone as I plan to spend my time as a flight instructor just like the ones before me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mixmaster Posted April 26, 2007 Report Share Posted April 26, 2007 I never flew with SS but I had a couple of Friends who left the school I trained at and went to work for SS. They knew of a couple of people who went throught the whole program early on and were happy, but they themselves seemed to be a bit overwelmed by the whole thing and were happy when they left. They did however get a LOT of hors in a short period of time. By the way what ever happend to the school in Butte MT. Is is still going or did they shut that one down??Fly SafeBEN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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