Lack of VSI in a R22.

[mechanic]

I have run across something that I did not know about the R22. I like looking at Instrument Panels when I can. I compare different panel layouts in the same model of aircraft. That brings me to this. I found and noticed two panels from R22 HP’s. What caught my eye was the lack of a VSI in an 80’ model year used for flight instruction, the pic was taken around 89'. Wow, that kind of got me to thinking about all the accidents when the R22 came out and I don’t remember reading about the lack of a VSI in any reports. I also noticed that the Clock and Carb Temp was reversed from what is now the normal locations for both.

 

I know Goldy and Delorean have flown HP’s, so did any of your HP’s not have a VSI? Having the light rotor system that the Robbie has seems like suicide not having one especially during practice auto’s and steep approaches. Wouldn’t it seem logical that not having a VSI could have contributed to some accidents as well?

 

Thoughts?

 

Later

 

[HelliBoy]

I lease a 1996 Schweizer 300CB for my flight school with no VSI. Its not that big of an issue, sure it would be nice to have one but I teach my students to to be aware of VRS using other methods. By being mindful of groundspeed/rate of closure and approach angle while on approach you can easily avoid a situation where the ROD gets above 300fpm. The most important rules for staying out of it are proper approach setup, staying on your approach angle, and staying above ETL for as long as possible.

I almost consider it an advantage while learning; it teaches the student to fly approaches correctly every time without having an instrument as a crutch. VSI's are overrated I think, they aren't very sensitive and aren't usually Instantaneous VSIs in training helicopters.

Here's a thought; how many accident reports give VRS as a cause? How many accident reports give 'pilot did not see obstruction/wire on approach'? Staring at a cluster of gauges can cause more problems than those gauges will save you from.

[Goldy]

Mechanic-..the last HP I flew was in 1990(N83721). That bird was built in 1982, I dont think it had a VSI, but I do remember the old red warning lights on the side of the panel. Not only did they move the lights, but they changed most of them to amber in the later ships. Pilots were doing emergency procedures when they saw a red light come on....so they have changed most of them.

 

Funny, looking at the FAA site, this bird is still around.

 

As far as a VSI, you could certainly fly without one, but I glance at mine every time I glance at the panel. Just today, I came across a ridge facing east with the bright LA sunshine. The warm updraft hit me and I started climbing 1000' plus. A quick glance at the VSI and I knew what was happening...a change like that could startle a student. Of course, since I play in gliders occasionally a little updraft is a good thing !!

 

In something as light as an R22, the VSI should be mandatory..just my opinion, but with the mast bumping issues its important to know what the bird is doing every second..no offense HeliBoy but a 300 aint nothing like a 22 !!

Goldy

Edited July 2, 2007 by Goldy

[brushfire21]

Whats a VSI hahahaha (just kidding guys, haven't had a chance to fly an A/C with one yet!)

[HelliBoy]

..no offense HeliBoy but a 300 aint nothing like a 22 !!

Goldy

 

I completely agree!! BUT- If you cant tell you're climbing or decending without a VSI maybe you should find another line of work.

[Gerhardt]

I completely agree!! BUT- If you cant tell you're climbing or decending without a VSI maybe you should find another line of work.

 

 

on that note, let the flaming begin.

[Wally]

I completely agree!! BUT- If you cant tell you're climbing or decending without a VSI maybe you should find another line of work.

 

Amen, brother- and in bold, caps and underlined, for students.

[delorean]

Mechanic-..the last HP I flew was in 1990(N83721). That bird was built in 1982,

 

No way! The one I used to fly was N8372B. It was a s/n 330 and apparently was the highest time R22 in the fleet. It had been through overhaul 3-4 times, but it was destroyed on 9/30/2002.

 

It was a five hole panel so it had: the dual tach, altitude, A/S, MP, and a VSI. It had the red lights on the sides of panel, the older toggle switches like a Bell, and the heater output right under the PIC's legs. I some of the REALLY early R22s had a small 4 hole "cube" panel like the early Hughes 269s. This helicopter may have had it, but it was overhauled so many times it may had been replaced.

 

Here's a picture! Somewhere I have a picture of a 4-hole panel'd one......

[Jeff]

If you're doing a 15- to 20-degree steep approach, you don't have to worry about VRS. At that angle, there are no combinations of AS and VS that will result in VRS. If you commonly do extremely steep approaches (greater than 30 degrees), an IVSI would surely come in handy. I don't see any purpose in doing approach angles greater than 20 degrees in the training environment. Therefore, lack of VSI should be a non-issue.

 

Jeff

[delorean]

Actually, a VSI isn't even required for IFR......helicopter or airplane. It would make an ILS a bit more difficult though. I like having it in autos--gives you a idea of how much a flare you're going to need.

 

We have a IVSI in our helicopter and it's pretty much useless. The needle just bounces around on approach especially with any kind of turbulance or wind. The ones with the 5-6 second delay are much more accurate, but it's an average.

 

The way to stay out of VRS, just keep it in ETL. When you start to feel the buzz, either drop the nose to keep your speed up or pull power to capture the increased rate of decent.

[joker]

What the hell! Flame suit is ready!

 

VSI is useful. It adds to situational awareness. So long as you understand the limitations of the type you have.

 

OK, I know when we teach instrument flying we teach all about the primary and secondary instruments for pitch bank and power.

 

In reality, when I fly in the soup, for straight and level flight and in normal turns VSI is what I use most to maintain assigned altitude. If slightly below, then I ease back (beep back) cyclic until a tiny rate of climb shows on vsi. When altitidue reached, put cyclic back to where it was.

 

Just like Delorean says, when intercepting glideslope on ILS, I look at 'recommended' rate of descent on the plate and set that first. Then I see where that is taking me relative to GS.

 

When levelling out from a climb, I still use 10% of climb rate to level. i.e. 500fpm = level out 50' before assigned. Same for descents.

 

When setting up for steep Cat A approach, if my ROD is too high, NFP calls it.

 

We also have maximum descent rates and climb rates set by company for passenger comfort.

 

Ironic really, cause as stated its not require for IFR!

 

In VFR, I don't look at it much - much rather look outside!

 

Joker

Edited July 2, 2007 by joker

[JDHelicopterPilot]

In general I feel there is too much reliance on the instruments for VFR flight. A VSI is a nice thing to have but the altimiter works better when keeping your altitude. When I flight instructed I found students were chasing the VSI needle as there was a delay and in the end their altitude suffered. There are other way to determine ROD and staying out of SWP. Other overused instruments would be the GPS. I never had one during my training. I did most of my commercial XC flights at night with the eception of the day VFR required one. I would "fail the GPS offten on stage checks and it never suprised me how little they knew about navigating via charts and ground references. Offten times I would cover up instruments in flight and even during autos if I saw students not looking outside where they should be.

 

 

 

JD

[joker]

Here, Here!!!

 

Every instructor should have a few 'instrument covers' to slap over the instruments of some unsuspecting student. That sorts the men from the boys (and women from girls).

 

I agree with GPS point too. There are plenty of other ways to navigate. Hell, I always tried to include very basic astro nav with my students. "Note where the moon is relative to north." Just something as simple as that can help. However, I guess the art of dead reckoning is now being replaced with such gadegtry. Whether this is inevitable or not, I still take pride at my ability to use a map and compass. In fact my last online purchase was a marine sextant. Students, take pride in being able navigate from a chart. If faced with an option of GPS aircraft or non-GPS aircraft choose the non-GPS one.

 

All of these instruments are aides to situational awareness. It is absolutely vital to be competent and confident to get by without an instrument or combination of instruments. That's why we do partial panel training in IFR courses.

 

However, it is equally as vital to be competent and confident to know how to include all available tools to enhance situational awareness. That's why none can be said to be 'not-useful'.

 

Joker

[mechanic]

Hey,

 

First, thanks for all the good input! I started this question with the VSI being needed in PRACTICE auto's and steep approaches in a R22, because I have flown probably um, 4 Beta II's and 1 Beta all be manufactured in different years, of which they all had a VSI type, not an IVSI. I have seen many older heli's without the VSI in the panel, but they had high inertia rotor heads. I have seen panels from 47's, UH-12's, B2B's, 269/300's, and F28A's without the VSI.

 

I was thinking it was a FAA/RHC safety issue for having the VSI in the panel? But, after all the info shared here I did some research. I found that the RHC POH does not list a ROD in the Section 4 Normal Procedures of the POH, it is a current POH too, revised April 07', for Practice Auto's PWR Recovery or Full Ground Contact. The RHC training handouts on page 20, state a note for you to check these as you go through 100' check RPM green, AS 60-70 KTS, and ROD less than 1500 fpm to do a immediate power recovery.

 

So if you don't have a VSI how you gonna know for sure your less than 1500 fpm? I am not trying to be a smart donkey here.. lol. I have the Helicopter Concepts DVD and Tim Tucker from RHC said the same in the video.

 

So, is it a RHC cya thing or is it a necessity having a low inertia rotor head? That's my question. I hope this makes sense.

 

Thanks, all.

 

[Goldy]

on that note, let the flaming begin.

 

 

Hey, my first ride in an R22 was in 1986...21 years ago. I am still alive, I rest my case ! Fly em with a VSI !

[Goldy]

No way! The one I used to fly was N8372B. It was a s/n 330 and apparently was the highest time R22 in the fleet. It had been through overhaul 3-4 times, but it was destroyed on 9/30/2002.

 

I think 83721 was S/N 317 or so..we had an R22 recently that just broke 10,000 hours...then they rolled it !

[Jeff]

Hey,

 

First, thanks for all the good input! I started this question with the VSI being needed in PRACTICE auto's and steep approaches in a R22, because I have flown probably um, 4 Beta II's and 1 Beta all be manufactured in different years, of which they all had a VSI type, not an IVSI. I have seen many older heli's without the VSI in the panel, but they had high inertia rotor heads. I have seen panels from 47's, UH-12's, B2B's, 269/300's, and F28A's without the VSI.

 

I was thinking it was a FAA/RHC safety issue for having the VSI in the panel? But, after all the info shared here I did some research. I found that the RHC POH does not list a ROD in the Section 4 Normal Procedures of the POH, it is a current POH too, revised April 07', for Practice Auto's PWR Recovery or Full Ground Contact. The RHC training handouts on page 20, state a note for you to check these as you go through 100' check RPM green, AS 60-70 KTS, and ROD less than 1500 fpm to do a immediate power recovery.

 

So if you don't have a VSI how you gonna know for sure your less than 1500 fpm? I am not trying to be a smart donkey here.. lol. I have the Helicopter Concepts DVD and Tim Tucker from RHC said the same in the video.

 

So, is it a RHC cya thing or is it a necessity having a low inertia rotor head? That's my question. I hope this makes sense.

 

Thanks, all.

 

 

The key point is that you be in a stabilized autorotation by 100 AGL. If your AS is around 45 kts. and RRPM a little on the high side, you could give some forward cyclic to increase your AS to 60-70 kts. The result would be lowering of the RRPM and an increase in your ROD. So... if you enter an auto at... say... 700 AGL, and have a stabilized RRPM and AS all the way down, the ROD will fall into line (even without a VSI to know what the actual ROD is). If neither is stable by 100 or 200 AGL or whatever height, then abort regardless of your ROD or whether you even have a VSI.

 

Jeff

Edited July 3, 2007 by Jeff

[JDHelicopterPilot]

The key point is that you be in a stabilized autorotation by 100 AGL. If your AS is around 45 kts. and RRPM a little on the high side, you could give some forward cyclic to increase your AS to 60-70 kts. The result would be lowering of the RRPM and an increase in your ROD. So... if you enter an auto at... say... 700 AGL, and have a stabilized RRPM and AS all the way down, the ROD will fall into line (even without a VSI to know what the actual ROD is). If neither is stable by 100 or 200 AGL or whatever height, then abort regardless of your ROD or whether you even have a VSI.

 

Jeff

 

I am glad you brought that up. I was just about to say the same thing while reading along here. As long as your auto is stablized IE: airspeed, RPM and trim in line with what it should be then you'll be fine. The scan I used while teaching was a medium rate scan of: Outside, RPM, AS, Outside, RPM, AS and so on. More time spent outside however. Doing this scan in a calm manner will help students feel relaxed and their autos will be fine.

 

EVEN W/O a VSI

 

JD

[blave]

Not sure this is worth the time it's taking me to type this in, but I did both my private and commercial tickets in 300CBs that had no VSis. Other than finding to be a bit of a departure from my fixed-wing training, it was never much of an issue.

 

 

Dave Blevins

[mechanic]

Thanks for all the replies..

 

mechanic